RE: Ineos Grenadier may be built in France
Discussion
The UK (according to wiki) is the 17th (yes seventeenth!!) biggest country ww by volume of cars manufactured - so we (I) may be looking at it thru slightly rose tinted glasses.... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by...
According to SMMT UK has 168,000 people employed directly in manufacturing and in excess of 823,000 across the wider automotive industry
Germany on the other hand according to VDA in 2017:The annual average [of employees] came to 820,200 employees in the plants of makers of motor vehicles and vehicle parts.
France (according to Statista) was at 216000 in 2016.
Brexit is a gift to the uber - rich. If UK stayed in the richest 1% would be hit with European transparency laws around tax.
https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/business/com...
The super rich don't like transparency. It limited their ability to do as they please. So the Ineos guy may lose credit over the origin of the car, but he will escape accountability. W I N !
https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/business/com...
The super rich don't like transparency. It limited their ability to do as they please. So the Ineos guy may lose credit over the origin of the car, but he will escape accountability. W I N !
RacerMike said:
Danez said:
oldtimer2 said:
You filed this under "British cars". If this change goes ahead the only British bits will be its name (Grenadier) and knock off looks (Defender 110).
At least the company itself is british Not many UK car manufactures can have that claim
Either way, incredible how quickly a leopard can change its spots when the wind changes. On minute he's voting to leave the EU, spouting how incredible the UK is and how we can go it alone....the next he's hiring German engineers and building cars in France. Nice one.
My theory is that the decision as to where to engineer the vehicle was based on the availability of skilled personel and knowledge, as it seems, was the decision as to where to assemble the vehicles.
Had the UK had a large, and importantly, a home grown vehicle manufacturing sector that proved itself over time to be innovative and able to evolve as part of a successful export led economy, I am certain the decision to engineer and assemble the vehicle in the UK would have come as second nature, despite Brexit.
The reality is that whilst the UK is the 8th largest manufacturer (in general, not just cars) in the world, a whopping 40% of that is foreign owned. The historical knowledge and experience of implementing this huge exercise has, since the 80's been eroded. We can speak of Nissan and Honda here in the UK for example, however all the conceptual thinking and implementation of how to manufacture and be efficient at this, not to mention new ideas being brought forward and to be innovative is highly likely to come from Japan and and even if great ideas came from British thinkers within the company, the owner of this knowledge is a company or person abroad.
And then there is the faith and confidence and I suspect this is lacking too for the historical reasons I merely touched on above.
Whilst in certain industries the UK may lead, this is one where we could learn a lot from others.
The question is have we, or will we? These questions have been asked for some time now going back the 80s, but I have not seen many new homegrown British brands enter the market...there is McLaren, which is good.
Its not as if I am taking pleasure in speaking of this either. However this is a recurring theme and I'd like to know why, out of interest.
Anyone who disagrees or takes a different view, I'm all for meaningful contributions.
Edited by chelme on Tuesday 7th July 13:16
kevinon said:
Brexit is a gift to the uber - rich. If UK stayed in the richest 1% would be hit with European transparency laws around tax.
https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/business/com...
The super rich don't like transparency. It limited their ability to do as they please. So the Ineos guy may lose credit over the origin of the car, but he will escape accountability. W I N !
I suspect this is very true. https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/business/com...
The super rich don't like transparency. It limited their ability to do as they please. So the Ineos guy may lose credit over the origin of the car, but he will escape accountability. W I N !
chelme said:
I'd be very interested to know whether the Company is HQ'd here in the UK. I have a suspicion, even the company is based abroad.
My theory is that the decision as to where to engineer the vehicle was based on the availability of skilled personel and knowledge, as it seems, was the decision as to where to assemble the vehicles.
Had the UK had a large, and importantly, a home grown vehicle manufacturing sector that proved itself over time to be innovative and able to evolve as part of a successful export led economy, I am certain the decision to engineer and assemble the vehicle in the UK would have come as second nature, despite Brexit.
The reality is that whilst the UK is the 8th largest manufacturer (in general, not just cars) in the world, a whopping 40% of that is foreign owned. The historical knowledge and experience of implementing this huge exercise has, since the 80's been eroded. We can speak of Nissan and Honda here in the UK for example, however all the conceptual thinking and implementation of how to manufacture and be efficient at this, not to mention new ideas being brought forward and to be innovative is highly likely to come from Japan and and even if great ideas came from British thinkers within the company, the owner of this knowledge is a company or person abroad.
And then there is the faith and confidence and I suspect this is lacking too for the historical reasons I merely touched on above.
Whilst in certain industries the UK may lead, this is one where we could learn a lot from others.
The question is have we, or will we? These questions have been asked for some time now going back the 80s, but I have not seen many new homegrown British brands enter the market...there is McLaren, which is good.
Its not as if I am taking pleasure in speaking of this either. However this is a recurring theme and I'd like to know why, out of interest.
Anyone who disagrees or takes a different view, I'm all for meaningful contributions.
Generally I think the 8,000 plus skilled engineers living here and working for JLR from both the UK and Abroad, the hundreds who work at Ricardo (who engineered the McLaren V8, and the 7 speed DCT for the Bugatti Veyron/Chiron), the thousands at McLaren developing world leading supercars (regardless of the companies marketing strategy), the hundreds at Crew engineer and testing Bentleys, the several hundred working at Williams Advanced Engineering as consultants to a lot of the words leading manufacturers on Vehicle Dynamics and EV/Hybrid systems, the hundreds at Lotus currently developing the Evija and the several hundred who just got fired by Dyson who were trying to find jobs again would fundamentally disagree with that statement. There's phenomenal talent in the UK for the nitty gritty and important bits that, judging by the number of Brits I encounter working throughout the European car industry in test and development, would back this up.My theory is that the decision as to where to engineer the vehicle was based on the availability of skilled personel and knowledge, as it seems, was the decision as to where to assemble the vehicles.
Had the UK had a large, and importantly, a home grown vehicle manufacturing sector that proved itself over time to be innovative and able to evolve as part of a successful export led economy, I am certain the decision to engineer and assemble the vehicle in the UK would have come as second nature, despite Brexit.
The reality is that whilst the UK is the 8th largest manufacturer (in general, not just cars) in the world, a whopping 40% of that is foreign owned. The historical knowledge and experience of implementing this huge exercise has, since the 80's been eroded. We can speak of Nissan and Honda here in the UK for example, however all the conceptual thinking and implementation of how to manufacture and be efficient at this, not to mention new ideas being brought forward and to be innovative is highly likely to come from Japan and and even if great ideas came from British thinkers within the company, the owner of this knowledge is a company or person abroad.
And then there is the faith and confidence and I suspect this is lacking too for the historical reasons I merely touched on above.
Whilst in certain industries the UK may lead, this is one where we could learn a lot from others.
The question is have we, or will we? These questions have been asked for some time now going back the 80s, but I have not seen many new homegrown British brands enter the market...there is McLaren, which is good.
Its not as if I am taking pleasure in speaking of this either. However this is a recurring theme and I'd like to know why, out of interest.
Anyone who disagrees or takes a different view, I'm all for meaningful contributions.
The UK is categorically really good engineering things well (usually against hilarious time constraints), but terrible at planning properly or managing to do things to process. It's why we're do good at making racing cars (big problems that seem almost impossible to fix but have no money constraint at all) and terrible at making reliable mass produced stuff (because everything ends up being done last minute without enough testing).
Personally, if I started a car company, it would have German's planning the whole thing, Brits doing the engineering and it would be made in Eastern Europe where people generally take pride in their work and use British or American talent to market the thing.
JLR will be chuffed about this, one less USP gone.
According to Autocar on the 1st July, Tennant and Heilmann say the project is running only a few weeks behind, despite Covid-19, and they’re looking now at ways of getting that time back. “It’s a tight schedule,” Heilmann said, “but by 2021 we want to be doing our first production runs, and at the end of 2021 we should have production cars coming off the line."
And yet they still haven't got a factory location confirmed. Its ludicrous, it will be closer to 2025, and then the whole thing will be dead in the water just as most EU countries start banning internal combustion engines. May as well build it in Africa or South America.
According to Autocar on the 1st July, Tennant and Heilmann say the project is running only a few weeks behind, despite Covid-19, and they’re looking now at ways of getting that time back. “It’s a tight schedule,” Heilmann said, “but by 2021 we want to be doing our first production runs, and at the end of 2021 we should have production cars coming off the line."
And yet they still haven't got a factory location confirmed. Its ludicrous, it will be closer to 2025, and then the whole thing will be dead in the water just as most EU countries start banning internal combustion engines. May as well build it in Africa or South America.
Tim bo said:
RacerMike said:
Either way, incredible how quickly a leopard can change its spots when the wind changes. On minute he's voting to leave the EU, spouting how incredible the UK is and how we can go it alone....the next he's hiring German engineers and building cars in France. Nice one.
Indeed. Smacks of James Dyson.
I think is Britain is to start moving ahead again it is going to have to look forward and not backward. We should be using what engineering talent we have to develop lightweight, efficient, affordable vehicles not fritter it away on throwbacks to the 1940s and exotic, useless, toys for the ultra wealthy.
AnotherClarkey said:
I think is Britain is to start moving ahead again it is going to have to look forward and not backward. We should be using what engineering talent we have to develop lightweight, efficient, affordable vehicles not fritter it away on throwbacks to the 1940s and exotic, useless, toys for the ultra wealthy.
Where’s the market for that though? LotusOmega375D said:
Good to hear Nigel Farage is on PH!
Thank you. Pretty weird that a predatory capitalist would set up a large employment operation in the country with the most communist attitude towards labour laws. I think he's going to end up sad.
When he's ready to come back we will have our forges, steam trains and mills waiting.
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