RE: Ineos Grenadier production pushed back
Discussion
I can get on board with building it in Europe. If you are setting up a business with an international market for your product you wouldn’t choose post Brexit Britain unless you were stark raving mad.
Re the comments about the complex Bmw engine / high emission/ phev etc, I think the point is being missed slightly. He has a deal with bmw to supply powertrains. In the short term it’s the 3L straight sixes. But they are just a stop gap until the real powertrain comes online. By signing with BMW he is targeting the hydrogen powertrain because what do Ineos make in bulk? yep hydrogen. What do BMW need to launch their hydrogen future? Yep that right, a steady supply of hydrogen and a distribution network. I bet he is getting the bmw engines for free….
Re the comments about the complex Bmw engine / high emission/ phev etc, I think the point is being missed slightly. He has a deal with bmw to supply powertrains. In the short term it’s the 3L straight sixes. But they are just a stop gap until the real powertrain comes online. By signing with BMW he is targeting the hydrogen powertrain because what do Ineos make in bulk? yep hydrogen. What do BMW need to launch their hydrogen future? Yep that right, a steady supply of hydrogen and a distribution network. I bet he is getting the bmw engines for free….
ducnick said:
Re the comments about the complex Bmw engine / high emission/ phev etc, I think the point is being missed slightly. He has a deal with bmw to supply powertrains. In the short term it’s the 3L straight sixes. But they are just a stop gap until the real powertrain comes online. By signing with BMW he is targeting the hydrogen powertrain because what do Ineos make in bulk? yep hydrogen. What do BMW need to launch their hydrogen future? Yep that right, a steady supply of hydrogen and a distribution network. I bet he is getting the bmw engines for free….
er, note sure if serious regarding the H2 bit!BTW, i drove a H2 powered 7 series, let me check, in 2001, so that's twenty years ago. And it was a bloody stupid idea even back then.......
Max_Torque said:
by fixed do you mean basically managed to make then as totally S88T as on the last defender? (the problem with short wide upright screens)
Look at earlier iterations of the car and the arc of the wiper clears almost nothing in front of the driver! Now they seem to have managed to get the wiper stood up against the a pillar at least a little bit.Andeh1 said:
The guy is clueless. The price he will need to charge for them to make money will make a new JLR Defender look like a bargain. 
He will have no scale of economy, no weight of negotiation, no supplier contacts, a new team, no experience with reliability, quality control or DFMEA/PFMEAs etc. No support network, online only sales. Then once in place the MPG will be s
t, the emissions average, the ride comfort non existent, NVH & basic usability will be poor....then he will need to charge £60k to sell it.
......soon to be cancelled. Watch this space.
Er, the vehicle is being developed by a former division of Mercedes Benz engineers (involved with G Wagen?) and built at an existing modern factory built and manned by MB/Smart personnel so they will know all about QC and DFMEA - if anything too much. MPG not important in this sector. Ride comfort and usability already proven. Not a volume car - more of a commercial vehicle so a different type of supplier base used to lower volumes. Target price £40k - under Defender. Deep pockets and proven business track record with no institutional shareholders to get in the way - a bit like JCB. Vehicles have been launched successfully by manufacturers with far fewer resources than Ineos has - no reason this will not be a success providing management is up to the job.He will have no scale of economy, no weight of negotiation, no supplier contacts, a new team, no experience with reliability, quality control or DFMEA/PFMEAs etc. No support network, online only sales. Then once in place the MPG will be s
t, the emissions average, the ride comfort non existent, NVH & basic usability will be poor....then he will need to charge £60k to sell it.......soon to be cancelled. Watch this space.
Edited by Andeh1 on Wednesday 12th May 18:37
People thinking this has any future as a commercial vehicle are dreaming.
Too expensive, unproven, no dealer network, engine too complicated and expensive for less developed countries.
Ineos on their own has nowhere near the scale to need enough vehicles to support a fraction their production targets.
Too expensive, unproven, no dealer network, engine too complicated and expensive for less developed countries.
Ineos on their own has nowhere near the scale to need enough vehicles to support a fraction their production targets.
braddo said:
People thinking this has any future as a commercial vehicle are dreaming.
I've got to agree. Given that operations like forestry, utilities and farming have been using Jap pick-ups for ages now, and the base versions of those can be had for way, way less than £40k especially if buying in bulk, why would you go for one of these that's more expensive, not obviously better at the job and with uncertain future support? No matter how much Jim Ratcliffe likes his Landies I just can't see that the world is crying out for a pastiche of an old Defender that on the one hand doesn't have any of the cachet of the Defender (important for the consumer market), and on the other hand isn't particularly cheap or any better at the job than what's already available (important for the commercial market). People will say 'Yeah well Jim Ratcliffe is a billionaire so he must know what he's doing', which I suppose is why we see so many of those Dyson cars knocking about.
Billy_Whizzzz said:
Lol. Got to laugh at the little englanders’ feeling of betrayal that a businessman needing to choose a sensible and connected place for production doesn’t choose little post Brexit britain.
I agree, and utterly predictable. It makes me sad/angry that he was one of the so-called "business geniuses" who advocated leaving the EU on basis of how wonderful it would be for British business, and then when an opportunity to put his money where his mouth is comes along... he puts his money in the EU. Can't fault his business judgement at all, but you can call out his duplicity.W12AAM said:
Yeah whatever, Mr Ratcliffe...
This car had so much promise at its early conception...and above all was going to be British built !...A real British built Land Rover replacement !
Granted - He's not a charity; But with his immense wealth, it seems like a real lost opportunity to have had a British owned car company, building a car in the UK (His tax advantages basing himself in Monaco could have probably off-set some costs, surely?)
Buying this has no patriotic advantage than buying the real thing...A Land Rover..even if its a Slovakian built Defender.
I hope he feels some shame.... But probably not...and that's why i've lost interest in this car & hope the French workers give him grief with their unflexible / union biased working practices
Indeed, more or less my thoughts n the matter.This car had so much promise at its early conception...and above all was going to be British built !...A real British built Land Rover replacement !
Granted - He's not a charity; But with his immense wealth, it seems like a real lost opportunity to have had a British owned car company, building a car in the UK (His tax advantages basing himself in Monaco could have probably off-set some costs, surely?)
Buying this has no patriotic advantage than buying the real thing...A Land Rover..even if its a Slovakian built Defender.
I hope he feels some shame.... But probably not...and that's why i've lost interest in this car & hope the French workers give him grief with their unflexible / union biased working practices
I love and own an old old Defender, its rusty and frequently dropping bits off and oil, but it has never failed me.
If I wanted another for working on the farm, I would buy a slightly newer proper defender.
I dont see the niche for this car that is not already filled with the old defender and the brand new one, both of which are real Land Rover.
forzaminardi said:
I agree, and utterly predictable.
It makes me sad/angry that he was one of the so-called "business geniuses" who advocated leaving the EU on basis of how wonderful it would be for British business, and then when an opportunity to put his money where his mouth is comes along... he puts his money in the EU. Can't fault his business judgement at all, but you can call out his duplicity.
This. It makes me sad/angry that he was one of the so-called "business geniuses" who advocated leaving the EU on basis of how wonderful it would be for British business, and then when an opportunity to put his money where his mouth is comes along... he puts his money in the EU. Can't fault his business judgement at all, but you can call out his duplicity.
Producing the car in France is only outrageous because he was pro Brexit. Or atleast pro 'trade unit not US of Europe' which got translated into leaving the trade union.
Daniel
Roger Irrelevant said:
I've got to agree.
People will say 'Yeah well Jim Ratcliffe is a billionaire so he must know what he's doing', which I suppose is why we see so many of those Dyson cars knocking about.
Cool. People will say 'Yeah well Jim Ratcliffe is a billionaire so he must know what he's doing', which I suppose is why we see so many of those Dyson cars knocking about.
Wow, I haven't seen any Dyson cars on the road yet but they must be awesome if there anyfink like there vacuum cleaners which are so cool. Hopefully CurrysPCWorld might have one in there store for me to look at some time, is that likely?
This Ineos is a updated LandRover, right?
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