RE: Toyota and Yamaha partner on hydrogen V8

[Grantstown]

Currently it’s the model 3, it used to be the Golf R, prizes to whoever can guess what the next champion of mediocracy vehicle will be.

[otolith]

MK1RS Bruce said:

I'd argue its easier to have satellite hydrogen storage facilities at service stations than it is to beef up the national grid to cope with the increased power demand nationally?

Where's your green hydrogen coming from?

[anonymous-user]

LucyP said:

Easier than re-wiring the whole country, or providing a point to a 10th floor flat.

duh

[D4rez]

Excited about a shiny engine but this ignores the:

- NOx it produces in cities (unless running on a different - low power - cycle, which at 449hp this is clearly not)
- Fact that it's just an engine not a robust leak proof fueling system that could see 20+ years in service (made of carbon fibre)
- Hugely increased CO2 it produces vs a BEV to produce hydrogen
- Total lack of any infrastructure or investment for such on the horizon
- Explosiveness of the fuel and the fact that it has a transparent flame (i.e. if you can't even see a fire if you got in on yourself)
- Combustion engine bans coming in through Europe and the UK
- Roughly triple cost of the ICE unit and then the cost of the tanks

This is not a solution for the masses, nor everyday (read: not mega rich) petrolhead. I can see it in Supercars maybe if the autorities allow it which is doubtful because of the above. Nice try though Toyota.

[Lexmaster]

D4rez said:

Excited about a shiny engine but this ignores the:

- NOx it produces in cities (unless running on a different - low power - cycle, which at 449hp this is clearly not)
- Fact that it's just an engine not a robust leak proof fueling system that could see 20+ years in service (made of carbon fibre)
- Hugely increased CO2 it produces vs a BEV to produce hydrogen
- Total lack of any infrastructure or investment for such on the horizon
- Explosiveness of the fuel and the fact that it has a transparent flame (i.e. if you can't even see a fire if you got in on yourself)
- Combustion engine bans coming in through Europe and the UK
- Roughly triple cost of the ICE unit and then the cost of the tanks

but it sounds nice, so your points are invalid

[D4rez]

Lexmaster said:

but it sounds nice, so your points are invalid

Bingo

[dunnoreally]

Words cannot express how much I would like this to work.

However, as I understand it even if you get round the storage issue, hydrogen engines still make naff all power, relatively speaking, while still emitting... nitrogen oxide, I think it was? Some greenhouse gas, anyway.

Feels like you get the storage problems that make EVs so fat, without any of EVs' advantages. Sure we couyld put a bunch of time and effort into working around what basically seems to be "internal combustion but worse", and I kinda wish we would on an emotional level, but when I step back and look at it objectively, from what I have seen, it just doesn't make sense.

Then again, I am sure that Toyota and Yamaha both know vastly more about this than I do, and they have seen fit to invest in it. I doubt it's anything like as clear cut as it looks from where I'm sitting.

[FaustF]

They aren't banning combustion engines they are banning new petrol and diesel engines.

[GT9]

Demonix said:

Hydrogen could be a viable cleanfuel solution to ev as filling stations could be replaced by Hydrogen fuelling stops, UK doesn't have nearly enough EV charging capacity for those that don't / can't have home or work charge points.or for a country facing an energy supply shortage caused by the move away from coal and gas power generation with several nuclear projects cancelled it offers an alternative. be interesting to hear what a hydrogen fuel cell car sounds like - batmobile gas turbine noise would be cool?

Fuel cells are silent.

HFCVs are essentially EVs with a silent on-board generator.

The only hydrogen car that will make a noise is one with an ICE.

Here's a question though, where exactly do you think hydrogen comes from and how much energy does it take to produce it?

You know, given that you state we are facing an electrical energy supply shortage an all that.

[D4rez]

FaustF said:

They aren't banning combustion engines they are banning new petrol and diesel engines.

You are right but essentially what they are legislating (EU and UK draft) is 0 tailpipe of any variety (PM, NOx, CO, CO2) which would effectively do as above, even for hydrogen

[Clivey]

For those suggesting that hyrdogen infrastructure won't exist or won't be viable, it'll have to be, even if it's initially intended for HGVs and large vehicles for which current battery technology is completely impractical.

I'm glad the fact that a battery electric powertrain is not suitable for every application is at least being discussed now; we're forever being told that battery technology is about to see a giant leap but just like nuclear fusion, that's been "just around the corner" for years now. Not only that but certain people (that I suspect have a financial stake in BEVs) are only too happy to harp on about the drawbacks of hydrogen whilst completely ignoring serious issues such as the cost and environmental impact of recycling end-of-life batteries from EVs.

One other thing is that the 2030 / 2035 ICE ban won't happen now, especially in light of the pandemic, material shortages, costs etc. The government will be forced into another U-turn or to kick that can down the road.

[D4rez]

Clivey said:

One other thing is that the 2030 / 2035 ICE ban won't happen now, especially in light of the pandemic, material shortages, costs etc. The government will be forced into another U-turn or to kick that can down the road.

Not what the VCA and DfT say but glad you've got the inside track

[donteatpeople]

MK1RS Bruce said:

Frimley111R said:

If you think EV charger infrastructure is slow moving try getting hydrogen storage tanks into service stations!

I'd argue its easier to have satellite hydrogen storage facilities at service stations than it is to beef up the national grid to cope with the increased power demand nationally?

It's not a case of having one or the other. You either have BEVs and need the electrical infrastructure, or you have hydrogen and need the hydrogen infrastructure and the electrical infrastructure. Hydrogen production takes far more energy than charging a battery, even more so if you're burning it (plus the range issues that go with the volume of hydrogen needed for combustion).

Hydrogen combustion solves the issues of noise and familiarity, it could be a competitor for synthetic fuels in the race car and track toy market. Realistically it's not going to be widely adopted for transport, once you look into the practicalities it's just not attractive.

[GT9]

D4rez said:

- Fact that it's just an engine not a robust leak proof fuelling system that could see 20+ years in service (made of carbon fibre)

Therein lies the challenge.

A hydrogen leak and subsequent ignition in an enclosed environment is near 100% fatal to those within a fair sized radius. The pressure wave that results from hydrogen explosions is incredibly destructive.

Add in a scenario where there are multiple vehicles with stored hydrogen on board and it's possible they all go off in a daisy chain.

Think underground car park or tunnel.

This problem will never go away in my opinion, so unless we have 100% guarantee of zero leakage, I don't see access ever being granted to these enclosed spaces, almost certainly if they are privately owned.

Hydrogen car are banned from many tunnels around the world, including the channel tunnel.

[virgilio]

I don't understand the obsession with hydrogen ICEs. They are just stupid: given that for daily drivers nothing can beat an EV, and for pistonheads we can just keep using petrol (or synthetic fuels made out of renewables, which are infinitely more practical, efficient and cheaper than H2); why on earth are they trying to to this (apart from Akio Toyoda's fixation on H2 and against EVs)?

[pardonmyenglish]

otolith said:

Using the data for the Lexus RC F and assuming that the H engine is equally efficient

Petrol

22 miles per 4.54609 litres
4.54609 litres / 22 miles * 1.43 £/l = 30p/mil

Hydrogen

4.54609 litres * 9.7 kWh / litre = 44kWh
44kWh / 22 miles = 2 kWh / mile
Hydrogen = 33.6 kWh / kg
1 kg of hydrogen = 33.6 / 2 = 16.8 miles per kg
UK H price = £10-£15 per kg

Price per mile = 60p - 90p per mile or equivalent cost to running a petrol car doing 7-11mpg.

2000W per mile when an electric car can easily do less than 300? Is that correct?

[otolith]

Clivey said:

Not only that but certain people (that I suspect have a financial stake in BEVs) are only too happy to harp on about the drawbacks of hydrogen whilst completely ignoring serious issues such as the cost and environmental impact of recycling end-of-life batteries from EVs.

What is the result of your analysis of the cost and environmental impact of recycling batteries and fuel cell stacks and tanks from hydrogen fuel cell vehicles?

(hydrogen ICEs are a pipe dream)

[Lexington59]

Superb. The EVangelists ^^ won't like it a bit!

[otolith]

pardonmyenglish said:

otolith said:

Using the data for the Lexus RC F and assuming that the H engine is equally efficient

Petrol

22 miles per 4.54609 litres
4.54609 litres / 22 miles * 1.43 £/l = 30p/mil

Hydrogen

4.54609 litres * 9.7 kWh / litre = 44kWh
44kWh / 22 miles = 2 kWh / mile
Hydrogen = 33.6 kWh / kg
1 kg of hydrogen = 33.6 / 2 = 16.8 miles per kg
UK H price = £10-£15 per kg

Price per mile = 60p - 90p per mile or equivalent cost to running a petrol car doing 7-11mpg.

2000W per mile when an electric car can easily do less than 300? Is that correct?

If my maths is correct, yes.

[GT9]

virgilio said:

I don't understand the obsession with hydrogen ICEs. They are just stupid: given that for daily drivers nothing can beat an EV, and for pistonheads we can just keep using petrol (or synthetic fuels made out of renewables, which are infinitely more practical, efficient and cheaper than H2); why on earth are they trying to to this (apart from Akio Toyoda's fixation on H2 and against EVs)?

Japan is a fairly unique market where hydrogen is potentially viable for passenger cars.

The UK, not so much.