Clocking widespread
Discussion
Dog Star said:
POORCARDEALER said:
I am sure most DECENT independent dealers do not sell clocked cars.
The biggest clockers of cars are private individuals clocking them before their first MOT or between MOT's.
Well I think you're either just plain naive or wrong!The biggest clockers of cars are private individuals clocking them before their first MOT or between MOT's.
I've know quite a lot of people in the trade in my area - main dealer and family business; I don't want to go into it on here (if you see what I mean) but I know what goes on. All seem to need the digital dashboard repairs chap a lot. They must be pretty unreliable.
Dog Star said:
I am utterly convinced that (b)most cars(b) sold through independent dealers (and I'll bet more than a few through main dealers) are clocked. I'm often amused when I see really low mileage stuff like Audis - almost always a company purchase so why low miles. Once stuff gets onto its third or fourth owner I think it's inevitable.
It's why I'm usually happy to buy stuff that's average/high mileage and base my decision on condition. In reality I bet the mileage is the same as the "low mileage" stuff.
Really? Sadly, I believe it's Joe Public who is the biggest culprit in this. Any dealer, independent or main, just cannot afford that sort of tarnish on his reputation. It's why I'm usually happy to buy stuff that's average/high mileage and base my decision on condition. In reality I bet the mileage is the same as the "low mileage" stuff.
An acquaintance of mine religiously took 10000 miles off his car before its annual service and Mot. He'd had the car from new, and sold it at 4 years old with half its real mileage. No-one was any the wiser, and he probably made £2k.
You're quite correct about condition though, as I've seen some lovely high mileage stuff around.
paoloh said:
Efbe said:
paoloh said:
Efbe said:
paoloh said:
Efbe said:
judge from the condition of the car, not the mileage then.
its very very very easy to tell the difference between an 80,000 mile car and a 160,000 mile car, no matter what they have done to try and hide it.
No it isn't.its very very very easy to tell the difference between an 80,000 mile car and a 160,000 mile car, no matter what they have done to try and hide it.
It would depend a lot on the use the car has had.
a 160k motorway muncher will be in better nick that a 40k town car.
Please tell us your secrets?
I can't be bothered listing everything to check. just suffice to say:
wear on engine changes its sound, feel etc... there are plenty os things under the bonnet that wear and are hard to replace.
in car is the easiest to tell. check anything plastic/cloth/leather that would have been worn down if someone was using it a lot.
such as: steering wheel, gear knob, indicators, common used buttons, seat, especially at right hand side, drivers door sill, drivers door handle, fading of colour on dash, and cloth interior/lining from sun exposure.
OFC these parts can be replaced. but then the colour is likely to be slightly different, and often its obvious.different.
Also it would cost more than the dealer would save to change all of these.
WeirdNeville said:
GuinnessMK said:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11897982
700,000 vehicles got to their MOT last year with fewer miles on the clock than when last presented, but the govt are happy that the current system is working? WTF!
How many of those will be "mis-keying" by the MOT tester on the computer I wonder? Just miss out a digit and the car suddenly loses 100,000 miles. I've seen some shocking typos/spelling mistakes/mis-keying on the new computerised MOT certificates.700,000 vehicles got to their MOT last year with fewer miles on the clock than when last presented, but the govt are happy that the current system is working? WTF!
Matt UK said:
saaby93 said:
Wouldn't it be easier to scrap the odometer and buy and sell cars on condition?
( which is probably what heppens anyway )
I'm a fan of 'engine hours'( which is probably what heppens anyway
)I am a fan of honesty (naive or what). Most people do not know enough to buy a car on condition so mileage is an indicator
Matt UK said:
saaby93 said:
Wouldn't it be easier to scrap the odometer and buy and sell cars on condition?
( which is probably what heppens anyway )
I'm a fan of 'engine hours'( which is probably what heppens anyway
)Someone needs to invent an irreplaceable part which wears down over time, possibly which disappears completely at 150k(?), so that you know the vehicle/engine have done their time. Fit a new engine and it comes with a new part - you wouldn't know the miles/hours the complete car had achieved but you'd know the history of the key element.
Efbe said:
paoloh said:
Efbe said:
paoloh said:
Efbe said:
paoloh said:
Efbe said:
judge from the condition of the car, not the mileage then.
its very very very easy to tell the difference between an 80,000 mile car and a 160,000 mile car, no matter what they have done to try and hide it.
No it isn't.its very very very easy to tell the difference between an 80,000 mile car and a 160,000 mile car, no matter what they have done to try and hide it.
It would depend a lot on the use the car has had.
a 160k motorway muncher will be in better nick that a 40k town car.
Please tell us your secrets?
I can't be bothered listing everything to check. just suffice to say:
wear on engine changes its sound, feel etc... there are plenty os things under the bonnet that wear and are hard to replace.
in car is the easiest to tell. check anything plastic/cloth/leather that would have been worn down if someone was using it a lot.
such as: steering wheel, gear knob, indicators, common used buttons, seat, especially at right hand side, drivers door sill, drivers door handle, fading of colour on dash, and cloth interior/lining from sun exposure.
OFC these parts can be replaced. but then the colour is likely to be slightly different, and often its obvious.different.
Also it would cost more than the dealer would save to change all of these.
I recently sold a 1 owner 07 C Class wearing 102k miles. There was not a mark on the car to be fair and the sterring wheel was barely worn. The car drove extremely well and had not one issue. I could have taken 60k miles off the clock and it would have looked like a genuine car.
Dog Star said:
Well I think you're either just plain naive or wrong!
Rubbish. Most areas have one or two dealers who clock cars, the trade all know who they are, trading standards and the DVLA know who they are, but the vast majority of dealers do not clock cars. The risks are just too high.It is pretty easy these days to research a car.
Looking at it from the other direction, I had two px's agreed this week. Both turned out to be clocked and both cars from Mr & Mrs Respectable with upmarket diesel estates. Both when I checked had suspect mileages. One had one owner from new and the other manufacturer + 1 owner. The majority of clocked cars are private sellers in autotrader, ebay, auctions or small time traders operating from home. VAT regsitered, DVLA regsitered legit dealers have too much to lose.
A lot of people also think it is OK to lease a car on 10k pa, do 90k and give it a quick adjustment back to 28k before handing it back to the lease company. Happens a lot.
Edited by confused_buyer on Friday 3rd December 11:01
paoloh said:
Efbe said:
paoloh said:
Efbe said:
paoloh said:
Efbe said:
paoloh said:
Efbe said:
judge from the condition of the car, not the mileage then.
its very very very easy to tell the difference between an 80,000 mile car and a 160,000 mile car, no matter what they have done to try and hide it.
No it isn't.its very very very easy to tell the difference between an 80,000 mile car and a 160,000 mile car, no matter what they have done to try and hide it.
It would depend a lot on the use the car has had.
a 160k motorway muncher will be in better nick that a 40k town car.
Please tell us your secrets?
I can't be bothered listing everything to check. just suffice to say:
wear on engine changes its sound, feel etc... there are plenty os things under the bonnet that wear and are hard to replace.
in car is the easiest to tell. check anything plastic/cloth/leather that would have been worn down if someone was using it a lot.
such as: steering wheel, gear knob, indicators, common used buttons, seat, especially at right hand side, drivers door sill, drivers door handle, fading of colour on dash, and cloth interior/lining from sun exposure.
OFC these parts can be replaced. but then the colour is likely to be slightly different, and often its obvious.different.
Also it would cost more than the dealer would save to change all of these.
I recently sold a 1 owner 07 C Class wearing 102k miles. There was not a mark on the car to be fair and the sterring wheel was barely worn. The car drove extremely well and had not one issue. I could have taken 60k miles off the clock and it would have looked like a genuine car.
When you think about it a rep mobile sat on the motorway all day is going to have less wear and tear on pedal rubbers, steering wheel and touch surfaces than the same car that's been used as a town car. Its only after repeated usage, rather than continuous use, that things show signs of wear.
Perhaps 15-20 years ago you could tell but improvements in build quality make it much harder now.
paoloh said:
Efbe said:
paoloh said:
Efbe said:
paoloh said:
Efbe said:
paoloh said:
Efbe said:
judge from the condition of the car, not the mileage then.
its very very very easy to tell the difference between an 80,000 mile car and a 160,000 mile car, no matter what they have done to try and hide it.
No it isn't.its very very very easy to tell the difference between an 80,000 mile car and a 160,000 mile car, no matter what they have done to try and hide it.
It would depend a lot on the use the car has had.
a 160k motorway muncher will be in better nick that a 40k town car.
Please tell us your secrets?
I can't be bothered listing everything to check. just suffice to say:
wear on engine changes its sound, feel etc... there are plenty os things under the bonnet that wear and are hard to replace.
in car is the easiest to tell. check anything plastic/cloth/leather that would have been worn down if someone was using it a lot.
such as: steering wheel, gear knob, indicators, common used buttons, seat, especially at right hand side, drivers door sill, drivers door handle, fading of colour on dash, and cloth interior/lining from sun exposure.
OFC these parts can be replaced. but then the colour is likely to be slightly different, and often its obvious.different.
Also it would cost more than the dealer would save to change all of these.
I recently sold a 1 owner 07 C Class wearing 102k miles. There was not a mark on the car to be fair and the sterring wheel was barely worn. The car drove extremely well and had not one issue. I could have taken 60k miles off the clock and it would have looked like a genuine car.
Example 1: A ten year old car has done 24000 miles, owned by a little old lady who services it every 12000 and uses it to go to the shop/post office that's 4.5 miles away five days a week and the occasional short trip to her friend's house.
Example 2: Another ten year old car, same spec and everything, has done 240000 miles and is owned by a middle management business type chap who works in the city and lives in the countryside. He also services his car every 12000 miles and, although he predominantly uses his wife's car for social travel, it does occasionally get used to visit family and friends.
Example 2 has probably been got in and out of the same amount of times as Example 1, the steering wheel may have been turned the same amount of times due to Example 2 just sitting on the motorway most of the time and, despite being the same mileages between servicing on each car, Example 2 has been serviced every six months where Example 1 has been serviced every five years.
I certainly know which car I'd rather buy, especially given the likely price difference between the two.
A friend of mine recently sold his BMW E46 320d Touring which had 182000 miles and was in nigh on immaculate condition and the original clutch, with no sign of needing replacement any time soon. People who are scared of high mileage cars are foolish and, on those grounds, I'd not be particularly bothered whether a car has been clocked as long as it's been maintained to a reasonable standard.
To elaborate slightly. I said it was easy to tell between 80 and 160k miles.
I do acknowledge, that it can be hard to tell wear and tear between 4 and 40k though.
so I think we were talking slightrly cross-purposes there.
In the end though, no matter how careful you are, when driving, you will wear the seat down, and wear will show on steering wheel and gear lever and indicators etc. (poss not indicators on beamers+mercs :P )
This is my main guage for a dodgy car.
I'm not saying a high mileage car is bad in any way, I judge a car on how it drives, engine condition, and also trying to guess if anything is likely to go wrong in the next year.
I do acknowledge, that it can be hard to tell wear and tear between 4 and 40k though.
so I think we were talking slightrly cross-purposes there.
In the end though, no matter how careful you are, when driving, you will wear the seat down, and wear will show on steering wheel and gear lever and indicators etc. (poss not indicators on beamers+mercs :P )
This is my main guage for a dodgy car.
I'm not saying a high mileage car is bad in any way, I judge a car on how it drives, engine condition, and also trying to guess if anything is likely to go wrong in the next year.
Efbe said:
To elaborate slightly. I said it was easy to tell between 80 and 160k miles.
I do acknowledge, that it can be hard to tell wear and tear between 4 and 40k though.
so I think we were talking slightrly cross-purposes there.
In the end though, no matter how careful you are, when driving, you will wear the seat down, and wear will show on steering wheel and gear lever and indicators etc. (poss not indicators on beamers+mercs :P )
This is my main guage for a dodgy car.
I'm not saying a high mileage car is bad in any way, I judge a car on how it drives, engine condition, and also trying to guess if anything is likely to go wrong in the next year.
You only have to shuffle your bottom or shift your hands twice as much to make an 80k miler's seat and wheel look like a 160k miler. You're simply talking about judging a car by its condition, not working out whether it's been clocked.I do acknowledge, that it can be hard to tell wear and tear between 4 and 40k though.
so I think we were talking slightrly cross-purposes there.
In the end though, no matter how careful you are, when driving, you will wear the seat down, and wear will show on steering wheel and gear lever and indicators etc. (poss not indicators on beamers+mercs :P )
This is my main guage for a dodgy car.
I'm not saying a high mileage car is bad in any way, I judge a car on how it drives, engine condition, and also trying to guess if anything is likely to go wrong in the next year.
Efbe said:
To elaborate slightly. I said it was easy to tell between 80 and 160k miles.
Is it though?8 year old 320d.
Driver 1 uses it every day for a 50 mile round trip, through 4 towns involving a lot of stop/starting, wheel twirling, gear changes and indicating.
Driver 2 uses it every day for a 100 mile round trip, his house and work is right next to the motorway, this journey involves a lot less of wheel, brake and indicating.
So after 8 years you end up with 2 cars. One with twice the mileage of the other. Wouldn't the higher mileage show a lot less signs of initial wear due to its easier life?
After owning a high mileage car (currently just over 175,000), I can with confidence say that what is on the odometer isn't the be-all and end-all that it used to be.
Sure it's a good indicator, after all, a high mileage car is still going to be wearing out ball joints and suspension components. Condition and service history are more important to me now.
Sure it's a good indicator, after all, a high mileage car is still going to be wearing out ball joints and suspension components. Condition and service history are more important to me now.
I agree.....I have had loads of high miler motorway cars that show almost zero wear as opposed to a town car used for shopping etc. We did a test in SA on a Opel Monza and Rekord called the moon mission. We ran two cars over a lap of South Africa (Durban/Johannesburg/Cape Town) untill they clocked 480 000 kms. Only regular service work was carried out. At the end of the test the compression ratios were as per factory spec and if you looked at the interior and drove the car you would have thought it had perhaps 50 000 kms on it. BMW's Million Mile E30 325i (although run to that mileage on a rolling road) still sounds as sweet as the day it was built.
Fastra said:
Efbe said:
To elaborate slightly. I said it was easy to tell between 80 and 160k miles.
Is it though?8 year old 320d.
Driver 1 uses it every day for a 50 mile round trip, through 4 towns involving a lot of stop/starting, wheel twirling, gear changes and indicating.
Driver 2 uses it every day for a 100 mile round trip, his house and work is right next to the motorway, this journey involves a lot less of wheel, brake and indicating.
So after 8 years you end up with 2 cars. One with twice the mileage of the other. Wouldn't the higher mileage show a lot less signs of initial wear due to its easier life?
2 Wycked said:
People who are scared of high mileage cars are foolish and, on those grounds, I'd not be particularly bothered whether a car has been clocked as long as it's been maintained to a reasonable standard.
But are you happy to still pay the relatively increased price that a "lower mileage" car attracts? The joy of high mileage cars (especially premium brands, on the whole) is the low price due to the masses still thinking 100k = dead.
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