RE: Could you buy a BMW i3?

[Wills2]

Technomatt said:

HTP99 said:

Technomatt said:

Renault has now admitted it's error with developing pure (non range extending) EVs and the projected consumer demand.

Not a dig, however can you show me where that information is, I'm genuinely interested?

The information comes from Renault's own big cheese - Carlos Ghosn.

Probably after looking at his latest qtr's earnings.

[DaveCWK]

Max_Torque said:

I love these threads on EVs and high tech powertrain vehicles! They bring out all the experts who shout "why don't they do it like this, or like that, or fit nuclear engines or whatever". Let me ask you this, bearing in mind that BMW for example have the largest R&D spend (by percentage of turnover)of any car company:

Do you think that they have deliberately not made this car as well as they could?

i.e. if things like solar panels on the roof, or massively powerful series hybridisation were a good idea, wouldn't they be using it? .............

They have made it as well as they could in accordance with the design brief they were given. However this is the political minefield of electric cars we're talking about. Maybe as a business they valued the 'eco kudoz' of developing & selling a purely electric car over a real life practical car with a viable range extender, as that would be 'too mainstream' and not differentiate it enough from a micro prius.

[anonymous-user]

This car (i3) has a "viable" range extender!

[DonkeyApple]

DaveCWK said:

Max_Torque said:

I love these threads on EVs and high tech powertrain vehicles! They bring out all the experts who shout "why don't they do it like this, or like that, or fit nuclear engines or whatever". Let me ask you this, bearing in mind that BMW for example have the largest R&D spend (by percentage of turnover)of any car company:

Do you think that they have deliberately not made this car as well as they could?

i.e. if things like solar panels on the roof, or massively powerful series hybridisation were a good idea, wouldn't they be using it? .............

They have made it as well as they could in accordance with the design brief they were given. However this is the political minefield of electric cars we're talking about. Maybe as a business they valued the 'eco kudoz' of developing & selling a purely electric car over a real life practical car with a viable range extender, as that would be 'too mainstream' and not differentiate it enough from a micro prius.

There is also the tax angle. If they can sell as many of these as they do their monster engined cars in Europe then the tax savings are noticeable. Plus, they get to pocket the £5,000 Govt subsidy as they'll have added £5k to the RRP as this is how all subsidies work.

The margins on this car is probably higher than on a petrol car once dev ammortisation has been considered. As such, if they take market share from the dinofuel hatchback sector then it will bring more marketing power and product delivery from other firms and we will start to see more price competition sooner than we would otherwise have done.

[pagani1]

A blind alley or the future? Or is it somewhere in between? In between i think. Falls between 2 stools but I have booked a test drive for curiosity. Sad that Audi have junked the E trons and then junked the man who made that decision. We need transport that doesn't consume a valuable resource so electricity isn't the answer the way that power stations are currently fuelled. We need a quantum leap here so can the aliens who sent us Leonardo Da Vinci download a newer version to invent the fusion drive or air powered transport.
Seriously we will eventually need an alternative version of how to get around and where is the "we will all work from home in the future" dream? Delivery consumables to our homes by high efficiency transport is a start as shopping holds no joy for me and I'm an old fart brought up with the habit so for me it can vanish tomorrow.
what else can we improve to assist in a better life? Re-invent freight transport to go by rail and then local distribution, so we need to re-think railways too and build lines that Beeching shut because he could not predict the future. Then get rid of school run traffic or make it bus only and that prevents a lot of local congestion. Finally all new EV's should have to pass a beauty contest before being built, mind you most cars could do with that as they now are all too similar. Sorry about the ramble.

[HTP99]

Technomatt said:

HTP99 said:

Do you have a link, as I can only find him saying nothing but positive things about solely electric vehicles?

Edited by HTP99 on Wednesday 31st July 09:46

Edited by HTP99 on Wednesday 31st July 09:46

Type 'Carlos Ghosn low EV sales' into the big G engine and loads of articles will be available where he goes on public record.

I've looked, I've found that sales aren't as high as expected, which I already knew, however I can't find where he said that he has made a mistake going solely with EV?

[Fast Bug]

DonkeyApple said:

The margins on this car is probably higher than on a petrol car once dev ammortisation has been considered.

I can't speak for BMW, but there isn't really any discount on electric Renault product. A fleet customer might get late 20% discount on a diesel Kangoo, but maybe 1% on an electric one for a fair size order. We don't get the same dealer margin that we would on a diesel Kangoo either. I'm off to see a customer next week about a good sized order for Zoe and there's no discount at all.

[Amateurish]

Resale value is appalling though. Try shifting a nearly new Fluence - absolutely impossible.

[Fast Bug]

We don't talk about the Fluence

The problem with the Fluence is that nobody buys saloon cars in that class, so the market for an electric saloon is very small. I think the rv's for the Zoe will be pretty good though.

[SystemParanoia]

There arnt any fluences on autotrader

[Amateurish]

That's because no-one bought any

[danp]

SystemParanoia said:

There arnt any fluences on autotrader

there are..13 of them starting at 8.7k

[Amateurish]

Fast Bug said:

We don't talk about the Fluence

The problem with the Fluence is that nobody buys saloon cars in that class, so the market for an electric saloon is very small. I think the rv's for the Zoe will be pretty good though.

I think the battery lease costs will kill resale values for Renault. On our Fluence, the lease was £1200 per year for 6000 miles. Which negated all of the saving of using electricity over diesel.

[danp]

Fast Bug said:

We don't talk about the Fluence

The problem with the Fluence is that nobody buys saloon cars in that class, so the market for an electric saloon is very small. I think the rv's for the Zoe will be pretty good though.

i3 is quoted at being worth 31% after 3 years which seems very low...

[McWigglebum4th]

danp said:

i3 is quoted at being worth 31% after 3 years which seems very low...

I'll be buying one in 3 years time then

[DonkeyApple]

Ultraviolet said:

Yes, seriously considering it. 0% BIK means I can put it through my company saving 40% on the price and it looks like it can be subject to capital write down so should save another 20% .. Unless any accountants on here can correct my understanding?

Oh and my commute is 10 miles each way and I have off street parking... Like the styling too (although will need to see it in the flesh)...

UV

BIK in 2015/16
In 2015/16 it is bad news for electric car drivers as the zero per cent rate for zero emissions cars will be scrapped and all electric cars will have to pay nine per cent rates instead.

[JP78]

danp said:

i3 is quoted at being worth 31% after 3 years which seems very low...

Quoted by who?

[Wills2]

DonkeyApple said:

BIK in 2015/16
In 2015/16 it is bad news for electric car drivers as the zero per cent rate for zero emissions cars will be scrapped and all electric cars will have to pay nine per cent rates instead.

This is the thing, as they get more popular they will tax them.

[SystemParanoia]

danp said:

SystemParanoia said:

There arnt any fluences on autotrader

there are..13 of them starting at 8.7k

ahh yes .. its seems they're so forgettable i forgot they existed in the time it took me to click between tabs lol



but on another point.. what happens in someone buys a Twizzy / Zoe / Fluence on the used market, and then refuses to sign the battery lease agreement ?

they own the car, but not the lease?

[DonkeyApple]

Wills2 said:

DonkeyApple said:

BIK in 2015/16
In 2015/16 it is bad news for electric car drivers as the zero per cent rate for zero emissions cars will be scrapped and all electric cars will have to pay nine per cent rates instead.

This is the thing, as they get more popular they will tax them.

For sure. But an EV will be cheaper to build as well as run in the not too distant future as they are mechanically more simple etc.

So, obviously as EVs trend towards vanilla so the grants will fall away and the taxes rise but other costs will fall.

The tax and subsidy situations are always going to be short term. They only exist to facilitate early adoption. They must be removed in due course to allow the business to stand on its own merits.

Perversely, this car could be the social break out that brings the tax breaks to an end. We can only hope.