RE: Subaru BRZ v Toyota GT86: Delivery Miles
Discussion
Not sure about latest sales figures but Australia were buying these at a rate of 3:1 over the UKs sales figures. I think the popularity here was the OTR cost, crazily low at $30,000 AUD. $30,000 is not buying you anything interesting (except the R8 Clubsport) in the AUS second hand market.
Having driven one I liked it a great deal, but I have an S2000 so I don't worry about things like torque, or lack of!
Having driven one I liked it a great deal, but I have an S2000 so I don't worry about things like torque, or lack of!
Whilst I admire this car I don't want one. I'm in no doubt they are great steer and I commend the concept but like the Mazda Mx5, despite the rave reviews I find these sorts of cars a trifle bland for some reason.
Reality is simple, whilst most internet armchair pundits harp on about RWD and the thrill of driving and go on about how good some car they've never even sat in let alone driven is, back in the real world they will end up driving some diesel powered family hack. They may secretly desire a 2+2 coupe but their lives dictate something more boring and practical. I get no end of stick from Mrs Morgrp about owning one and how I should get rid of mine for "a diesel" or "something with more doors" etc etc and realistically she's right in many ways.
Reality is simple, whilst most internet armchair pundits harp on about RWD and the thrill of driving and go on about how good some car they've never even sat in let alone driven is, back in the real world they will end up driving some diesel powered family hack. They may secretly desire a 2+2 coupe but their lives dictate something more boring and practical. I get no end of stick from Mrs Morgrp about owning one and how I should get rid of mine for "a diesel" or "something with more doors" etc etc and realistically she's right in many ways.
I went to look at a black GT86 in the local Toyota garage, in the spec that car was in, it was £27k!
Also, the paint finish was awful, orange peel literally everywhere, when I discussed this with the salesman he told me all the black ones are like this, its a truly terrible finish.
£20k sounds a lot more tempting, but not in black!!
I may have to revisit, there are quite a few in the work car park now... There are definitely more around.
May try to see what sort of deal I can broker! In reality, is there any noticeable difference between the GT86 & BRZ?
Also, the paint finish was awful, orange peel literally everywhere, when I discussed this with the salesman he told me all the black ones are like this, its a truly terrible finish.
£20k sounds a lot more tempting, but not in black!!
I may have to revisit, there are quite a few in the work car park now... There are definitely more around.
May try to see what sort of deal I can broker! In reality, is there any noticeable difference between the GT86 & BRZ?
Edited by lankyarcher on Friday 27th February 07:43
chopper602 said:
LordGrover said:
Odd. I'm on my 3rd or 4th set of tyres and second set of pads - no track days.
I have used winters for about 3 or 4 months each year though if that counts. Looking at the Michelins in the garage, they're getting a bit down, so might have to get a set come the summer.(service last June said pads were only worn 20% - someone in the drivers club has had 40k out of theirs!)
and whats the point of a track day if you don't go for it! 10 minute laps of the Nurbrugring take their toll too!
I also replaced the discs when I changed to greenstuff pads.
lankyarcher said:
May try to see what sort of deal I can broker! In reality, is there any noticeable difference between the GT86 & BRZ?
BRZ is the cheap cousin. No Bluetooth for example, poor stereo, even cheaper looking dashboard. Exterior, the nose is different, lights in different position. That is about it. They are all made in the Subaru factory and the majority of parts have 'Subaru' stamps on them.Edited by lankyarcher on Friday 27th February 07:43
Apparently BRZ is setup towards understeer and the GT86 is set-up towards oversteer.
Edited by chopper602 on Friday 27th February 08:26
AAGR said:
Johnnytheboy said:
Fittster said:
Toyota's mistake was building a car that people said they would buy not a car that they would buy.
Never trust an enthusiast, lots of talk, very little buying. Lotus could have provided some useful consultancy on this particular issue.
My father tells a story of an attempt by Ford to engage the Ford enthusiast community in coming up with their next performance car (I think this was about 15 years ago). He might come along in a bit and tell it better than me; it may have involved the RS Owner's Club. Never trust an enthusiast, lots of talk, very little buying. Lotus could have provided some useful consultancy on this particular issue.
They told Ford they wanted 200hp, no more than 1,000kg and definitely rear wheel drive. At a price tag of no more than £10,000.
Ford laughed at them.
Ford then patiently asked them what they really wanted, and the response was that what they really really wanted was a modern re-statement of the Escort Mexico or the beaky-nose Escort RS2000 of the 1970s, but with modern styling, and above all, with rear-wheel-drive. They couldn't see why or how it would be too difficult to provide a front-engine/rear-drive platform.
Oh, and by the way, that was when a front-wheel-drive RS2000 was selling for about £15,000, and they thought that a simple rear-drive car should surely be economically saleable at £10,000.
I remind you that Ford was not making small rear-wheel-drive cars of any type by then, and they thought this was a wind-up. They did not, and have not since, take them seriously.
They are going great guns in Australia for a number of reasons (1) the price which beats everything else hands down including second-hand Caymans etc. which hardly exist here (2) The Australian city driving experience is completely different to UK driving i.e. you don't tend to spend hours on the M25 at 90mph or 0mph depending (3) The Australian Toyota and Subaru dealer network is way more keyed up than the UK network. I remember seeing an 86 washed up on the forecourt of some hideously unglamourous (Broad Oak near Canterbury) provincial dealership saying to itself "What on earth am I doing here?" The dealership didn't know either especially with the silly pricing. (4) Japanese cars are held in much higher regard from long WRX/Skyline/Supra/Evo tradition.
I haven't driven one but I hope it's not like the MX5 which is so dull it's beyond description although a reasonable ownership proposition unless it rusts.
I haven't driven one but I hope it's not like the MX5 which is so dull it's beyond description although a reasonable ownership proposition unless it rusts.
Power is the main reason I haven't bought one
I'm not saying they should have 400bhp, but they need to at least be capable of 0-60 in 5.0s (or there abouts) for me to be interested
I don't really fancy the idea of taking a brand new car to Litchfield. Just give me a 290bhp one from the factory for £25K and I'm sold!
I'm not saying they should have 400bhp, but they need to at least be capable of 0-60 in 5.0s (or there abouts) for me to be interested
I don't really fancy the idea of taking a brand new car to Litchfield. Just give me a 290bhp one from the factory for £25K and I'm sold!
Edited by Alex_6n2 on Friday 27th February 09:19
Ahimoth said:
JamesL91 said:
Oh.. and anyone mentioning insurance, I was 22 when I had mine and it was £400 a year. Mental cheap.
WTF.Edited by JamesL91 on Thursday 26th February 18:18
A few years back I told myself I'd buy an RX8 when I could afford one. I can now, but I wouldn't buy one. This is the new plan, assuming they're not falling to bits come the time.
unpc said:
I suspect if this came with 250bhp from the start people would still be moaning that it didn't have 300 and still wouldn't buy it. If Toyota brought out a new Supra with 400bhp and was amazing people here still wouldn't buy it as it has the wrong badge. Depressing really.
Which badge would sell more do you think? Range Rover and BMW? ;-)unpc said:
I suspect if this came with 250bhp from the start people would still be moaning that it didn't have 300 and still wouldn't buy it. If Toyota brought out a new Supra with 400bhp and was amazing people here still wouldn't buy it as it has the wrong badge. Depressing really.
If it had 250hp naturally aspirated, people would be moaning about the high road tax/emissions and rubbish fuel economy. If it had a turbo, people would complain about turbo lag and throttle response. If it had 250hp+ the car's price would be higher and people would complain it's too expensive, especially because the dash plastics are too hard and the retro clock is disturbing the space/time continuum.
The car as it is, is a fantastic balancing act; it's just that the UK market doesn't like it (and never would have).
For anyone who thinks these cars are too slow, I would urge them to watch the Chris Harris video where he compares the GT86 to a used Cayman and a 370Z - he shows how the car can really hustle on the twisties (on its low spec tyres, remember).
unpc said:
I suspect if this came with 250bhp from the start people would still be moaning that it didn't have 300 and still wouldn't buy it. If Toyota brought out a new Supra with 400bhp and was amazing people here still wouldn't buy it as it has the wrong badge. Depressing really.
I love the GT86, and I understand that it's raison d'etre is to be a low powered fun rear drive coupé, not a high performance car, but nevertheless, I can suggest an explanation for the market effects you describe. On your first point, people expect the power of a sports car or coupé to be at the top end or exceeding normal saloon cars and hot hatches, and with so many of those at circa 200-220bhp now, the market would like at least 250bhp to distinguish a sports car or coupé from those more mundane offerings.
Your second point on 400bhp cars having the 'wrong badge' is simply that of cost - once a car's over £30-£35kk it's very hard to sell it with the 'wrong badge', much like an Elizabeth Duke diamond ring selling for £5k - even if was unquestionably worth that in terms of the diamond's Cs and the ring it was set in, people wouldn't buy it because it's not from the right 'brand'.
Both points are opposite to everything I stand for, so I'm not condoning either, but we read it so often here on PH that it's very familiar to me now, and I'm sure such talk is even more common in the general car buying pubic than it is on PH.
I think the GT86 is selling ok though isn't it? The figures seem ok to me given how little sports cars are selling these days?
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