RE: Skoda Octavia vRS Revo Technik: Driven
Discussion
Scottie - NW said:
SuperchargedVR6 said:
I bet the AMG is more repeatable too as they will have used an intercooler that's up to the job. The Skoda's is still the same one the factory turbo / boost pressure required. As AER said, IAT has a big impact on torque.
That post was a good summary, but just to add re the bit about the intercooler, REVO confirmed in one of their posts the Skoda in this example has an uprated FMIC fitted but they forgot to include it in the PH article spec.gigglebug said:
The FQ400 and the FQ440 were developed by Mitsubishi UK and sold as official Mitsubishi products including manufacturer warranties. Not really the same thing is it?
I'm pretty sure they're effectively a fiddled with grey import. I can't find them on the VCA database so they won't be sold as a new, unregistered vehicle. I'm not 100% sure of the rules they operate under so stand to be corrected. AER said:
I'm pretty sure they're effectively a fiddled with grey import. I can't find them on the VCA database so they won't be sold as a new, unregistered vehicle. I'm not 100% sure of the rules they operate under so stand to be corrected.
The FQ400 and FQ440 as far as I am aware were a product of the Colt Car Company (Mitsubishi UK) which is a subsidiary of Mitsubishi Japan, the development work however wasn't done by Mitsubishi themselves but rather in conjunction with outside specialists under the guidance of Mitsubishi UK motor sport division. Both were sold through official dealers and both came with official warranties (although there were some stipulations to service intervals and mileage) The FQ440 can still be viewed on the official website. So it's a Mitsubishi product effectively and isn't remotely comparable to cars that have been tuned by an aftermarket developer and which won't be backed in any shape or form by the manufacturer. Not a great deal of difference between these and something like an AMG really, well not at least until Mercedes took full control anyway.gigglebug said:
AER said:
I'm pretty sure they're effectively a fiddled with grey import. I can't find them on the VCA database so they won't be sold as a new, unregistered vehicle. I'm not 100% sure of the rules they operate under so stand to be corrected.
The FQ400 and FQ440 as far as I am aware were a product of the Colt Car Company (Mitsubishi UK) which is a subsidiary of Mitsubishi Japan, the development work however wasn't done by Mitsubishi themselves but rather in conjunction with outside specialists under the guidance of Mitsubishi UK motor sport division. Both were sold through official dealers and both came with official warranties (although there were some stipulations to service intervals and mileage) The FQ440 can still be viewed on the official website. So it's a Mitsubishi product effectively and isn't remotely comparable to cars that have been tuned by an aftermarket developer and which won't be backed in any shape or form by the manufacturer. Not a great deal of difference between these and something like an AMG really, well not at least until Mercedes took full control anyway.As for being anything like AMG, you perhaps should pay a visit to Afalterbach for a look round. It's a huge operation these days and still hasn't broken the 400hp mark for a production 2.0L turbo engine...
AER said:
gigglebug said:
AER said:
I'm pretty sure they're effectively a fiddled with grey import. I can't find them on the VCA database so they won't be sold as a new, unregistered vehicle. I'm not 100% sure of the rules they operate under so stand to be corrected.
The FQ400 and FQ440 as far as I am aware were a product of the Colt Car Company (Mitsubishi UK) which is a subsidiary of Mitsubishi Japan, the development work however wasn't done by Mitsubishi themselves but rather in conjunction with outside specialists under the guidance of Mitsubishi UK motor sport division. Both were sold through official dealers and both came with official warranties (although there were some stipulations to service intervals and mileage) The FQ440 can still be viewed on the official website. So it's a Mitsubishi product effectively and isn't remotely comparable to cars that have been tuned by an aftermarket developer and which won't be backed in any shape or form by the manufacturer. Not a great deal of difference between these and something like an AMG really, well not at least until Mercedes took full control anyway.As for being anything like AMG, you perhaps should pay a visit to Afalterbach for a look round. It's a huge operation these days and still hasn't broken the 400hp mark for a production 2.0L turbo engine...
As for AMG your correct. They are a huge operation these days but it wasn't always the case was it. There was a time where they were only part owned by Mercedes, a bit like the Colt Car Company and produced tuned versions of the standard cars, a bit like the FQ series. They then sold them in official Mercedes dealers with full warranties, a bit like the Colt Car Company did with the FQ series. So yes it is a relevant comparison, far more so than your comparison to a completely independent outfit like Revo.
So, what you're claiming is that the FQ440 is engineered to the same standards as the AMG A45 thingy? I call custard on that as an even remotely feasible proposition. The only thing they share in commons is being backed by a "manufacturer" and even then that's a stretch, given that the CCC is really just an importer.
Even AMG don't sell their product with a "bespoke ECU re-map" but they really do get listed in the VCA homologation database!
Nevertheless, at least the CCC claim to be producing their 440hp on the right side of unrealistic at 6800rpm. That's still a slightly dubious 29Bar BMEP but their torque figure at 35Bar is orbiting somewhere between the Moon and Mars...
You can believe their claims if you like, but I'm not buying it, even figuratively speaking.
Even AMG don't sell their product with a "bespoke ECU re-map" but they really do get listed in the VCA homologation database!
Nevertheless, at least the CCC claim to be producing their 440hp on the right side of unrealistic at 6800rpm. That's still a slightly dubious 29Bar BMEP but their torque figure at 35Bar is orbiting somewhere between the Moon and Mars...
You can believe their claims if you like, but I'm not buying it, even figuratively speaking.
AER said:
So, what you're claiming is that the FQ440 is engineered to the same standards as the AMG A45 thingy? I call custard on that as an even remotely feasible proposition. The only thing they share in commons is being backed by a "manufacturer" and even then that's a stretch, given that the CCC is really just an importer.
Even AMG don't sell their product with a "bespoke ECU re-map" but they really do get listed in the VCA homologation database!
Nevertheless, at least the CCC claim to be producing their 440hp on the right side of unrealistic at 6800rpm. That's still a slightly dubious 29Bar BMEP but their torque figure at 35Bar is orbiting somewhere between the Moon and Mars...
You can believe their claims if you like, but I'm not buying it, even figuratively speaking.
So at exactly what point have I claimed anything?? All I have done is provided the facts readily available to all, I haven't even expressed any personal opinion on the performance quotes provided nor made any suggestions as to their engineering standards when compared to the A45 (which, if you would have done the simplest of homework, is a product of AMG way after Mercedes took full control and not from the period I have clearly referred to in my posts). It looks like you are now trying to provoke an argument on a completely unrelated facet of the topic by insinuating that claims and personal opinions have been made, when in fact none have, merely for the sake of covering up the fact that you ignorantly compared the FQ series to a completely independent non manufacturer backed offering like Revo and got smoked for it because you didn't even have the common sense to look into it properly before posting. Even AMG don't sell their product with a "bespoke ECU re-map" but they really do get listed in the VCA homologation database!
Nevertheless, at least the CCC claim to be producing their 440hp on the right side of unrealistic at 6800rpm. That's still a slightly dubious 29Bar BMEP but their torque figure at 35Bar is orbiting somewhere between the Moon and Mars...
You can believe their claims if you like, but I'm not buying it, even figuratively speaking.
My original post on the FQ440 was one of genuine interest as there doesn't seem to be any real world data from owners on the cars actual performance and there are little official stats for the types of readings people like you use to determine whether or not the output claims are likely to be achievable or not. It was you who then went into opinion and guesswork mode.
Edited by gigglebug on Saturday 20th February 11:55
It an interesting account. From doing a bit of reading it's always been claimed that the performance of the FQ400 could be matched or bettered at a lot lower price point if you took something like an FQ320 and spent a bit of money on it. Of course it then wouldn't have the manufacturer warranty so swings and roundabouts.
I wonder how much the TDI work cost?
I wonder how much the TDI work cost?
Edited by gigglebug on Saturday 20th February 12:30
AER said:
The only thing they share in commons is being backed by a "manufacturer" and even then that's a stretch, given that the CCC is really just an importer.
And for your information CCC is now a wholly-owned subsidiary of Mitsubishi Corporation and has been since 2008, pretty much in the same way as AMG have been a wholly-owned subsidiary of Mercedes since 2005. Where will the similarities end?gigglebug said:
So at exactly what point have I claimed anything?.
You claimed that the FQ440 wasn't remotely comparable to the RevoT Skoda. I claim that it is much closer in nature to the RevoT effort than, for example, the AMG A45. And I have outlined my reasons for thinking this. Opinion? Sure, but borne of industry experience and my engineering background in engine development and backed by quantitative comparison with reliable benchmarks which you can verify as you wish.I don't know what your agenda is here but it plainly doesn't square with my (professional) opinion that the FQ440 is a dubious and uncredible data point for engine performance. I'm not interested in continually repeating myself to point out the divergence from engineering reality of the various power claims people make. It isn't all that hard to do the sums and, I contend, it is more accurate sometimes to make a calculated estimate of engine power than it is to attempt measuring it. I have nothing more to add to this debate.
AER said:
gigglebug said:
So at exactly what point have I claimed anything?.
You claimed that the FQ440 wasn't remotely comparable to the RevoT Skoda. I claim that it is much closer in nature to the RevoT effort than, for example, the AMG A45. And I have outlined my reasons for thinking this. Opinion? Sure, but borne of industry experience and my engineering background in engine development and backed by quantitative comparison with reliable benchmarks which you can verify as you wish.I don't know what your agenda is here but it plainly doesn't square with my (professional) opinion that the FQ440 is a dubious and uncredible data point for engine performance. I'm not interested in continually repeating myself to point out the divergence from engineering reality of the various power claims people make. It isn't all that hard to do the sums and, I contend, it is more accurate sometimes to make a calculated estimate of engine power than it is to attempt measuring it. I have nothing more to add to this debate.
Again I will have to highlight that no point have I given any sort of opinion on whether the performance figures stated by Mitsubishi UK are likely to be correct or not and at no point have I made any grand claims on their engineering integrity as it was completely irrelevant to the argument. It was actually you that decided to follow that route by providing counter arguments to claims which were not even being made as a tactic to deflect from the fact that you and your professionalism were being shown up. I haven't once bothered to try and refute your opinion on the "nature" of the car as again it was irrelevant and anyone with common sense, certainly someone claiming to be professional, should have and would have realised that it was in fact the marketing and the official manufacturer involvement of the car that I have been referring to in my posts and was a direct response to you claiming;
"The FQ-series are just the importer playing the same games as RevoTechnik. I'll bet the Japanese are mortally embarrassed that their name is used on such products."
To which my response was;
"The FQ400 and the FQ440 were developed by Mitsubishi UK and sold as official Mitsubishi products including manufacturer warranties. Not really the same thing is it?"
You have then continued to make claims that the FQ series are no more than an independent effort like Revo Technik, a notion that I have proven to be indeed incorrect and indeed to be a lot closer to an AMG product than any REVO product will be as;
1) Both AMG and CCC are wholly-owned subsidiaries of the parent companies supplying the base models to be modified
2) Both AMG and CCC products are/were sold through the manufacturers/parent companies official dealerships
3) Both AMG and CCC products are/were provided with full manufacturer warranties
None of these are applicable to Revo Technik or the products that they are able to supply. If Mitsubishi were "mortally embarrassed" then they surely wouldn't have allowed it to happen as they are the parent company.
Your "professional" opinion on the validity of any quoted performance figures or any engineering integrity are completely irrelevant as at no point was this the basis of the argument, you just brought it in as a way to try and carry on with something you had already been proved wrong on.
"I have nothing more to add to this debate."
You would have been far better off going with this before you started showing yourself up.
Edited by gigglebug on Saturday 20th February 16:57
gigglebug said:
AER said:
gigglebug said:
So at exactly what point have I claimed anything?.
You claimed that the FQ440 wasn't remotely comparable to the RevoT Skoda. I claim that it is much closer in nature to the RevoT effort than, for example, the AMG A45. And I have outlined my reasons for thinking this. Opinion? Sure, but borne of industry experience and my engineering background in engine development and backed by quantitative comparison with reliable benchmarks which you can verify as you wish.I don't know what your agenda is here but it plainly doesn't square with my (professional) opinion that the FQ440 is a dubious and uncredible data point for engine performance. I'm not interested in continually repeating myself to point out the divergence from engineering reality of the various power claims people make. It isn't all that hard to do the sums and, I contend, it is more accurate sometimes to make a calculated estimate of engine power than it is to attempt measuring it. I have nothing more to add to this debate.
Again I will have to highlight that no point have I given any sort of opinion on whether the performance figures stated by Mitsubishi UK are likely to be correct or not and at no point have I made any grand claims on their engineering integrity as it was completely irrelevant to the argument. It was actually you that decided to follow that route by providing counter arguments to claims which were not even being made as a tactic to deflect from the fact that you and your professionalism were being shown up. I haven't once bothered to try and refute your opinion on the "nature" of the car as again it was irrelevant and anyone with common sense, certainly someone claiming to be professional, should have and would have realised that it was in fact the marketing and the official manufacturer involvement of the car that I have been referring to in my posts and was a direct response to you claiming;
"The FQ-series are just the importer playing the same games as RevoTechnik. I'll bet the Japanese are mortally embarrassed that their name is used on such products."
To which my response was;
"The FQ400 and the FQ440 were developed by Mitsubishi UK and sold as official Mitsubishi products including manufacturer warranties. Not really the same thing is it?"
You have then continued to make claims that the FQ series are no more than an independent effort like Revo Technik, a notion that I have proven to be indeed incorrect and indeed to be a lot closer to an AMG product than any REVO product will be as;
1) Both AMG and CCC are wholly-owned subsidiaries of the parent companies supplying the base models to be modified
2) Both AMG and CCC products are/were sold through the manufacturers/parent companies official dealerships
3) Both AMG and CCC products are/were provided with full manufacturer warranties
None of these are applicable to Revo Technik or the products that they are able to supply. If Mitsubishi were "mortally embarrassed" then they surely wouldn't have allowed it to happen as they are the parent company.
Your "professional" opinion on the validity of any quoted performance figures or any engineering integrity are completely irrelevant as at no point was this the basis of the argument, you just brought it in as a way to try and carry on with something you had already been proved wrong on.
"I have nothing more to add to this debate."
You would have been far better off going with this before you started showing yourself up.
Edited by gigglebug on Saturday 20th February 16:57
gigglebug said:
Oh dear, oh dear. Has someone had to pull the "look at me I'm a professional!" card?? How pathetic! Unfortunately your professionalism didn't extend to researching the topic you were so happy to comment on and has still yet to prove anything against the evidence that has been provided. In fact all your so called professionalism has provided is a counter argument to something that hasn't even been implied as it was the only way for you to try and save any face when you got toasted. So again I will put you in your place. This must be really embarrassing for a "professional".
Again I will have to highlight that no point have I given any sort of opinion on whether the performance figures stated by Mitsubishi UK are likely to be correct or not and at no point have I made any grand claims on their engineering integrity as it was completely irrelevant to the argument. It was actually you that decided to follow that route by providing counter arguments to claims which were not even being made as a tactic to deflect from the fact that you and your professionalism were being shown up. I haven't once bothered to try and refute your opinion on the "nature" of the car as again it was irrelevant and anyone with common sense, certainly someone claiming to be professional, should have and would have realised that it was in fact the marketing and the official manufacturer involvement of the car that I have been referring to in my posts and was a direct response to you claiming;
"The FQ-series are just the importer playing the same games as RevoTechnik. I'll bet the Japanese are mortally embarrassed that their name is used on such products."
To which my response was;
"The FQ400 and the FQ440 were developed by Mitsubishi UK and sold as official Mitsubishi products including manufacturer warranties. Not really the same thing is it?"
You have then continued to make claims that the FQ series are no more than an independent effort like Revo Technik, a notion that I have proven to be indeed incorrect and indeed to be a lot closer to an AMG product than any REVO product will be as;
1) Both AMG and CCC are wholly-owned subsidiaries of the parent companies supplying the base models to be modified
2) Both AMG and CCC products are/were sold through the manufacturers/parent companies official dealerships
3) Both AMG and CCC products are/were provided with full manufacturer warranties
None of these are applicable to Revo Technik or the products that they are able to supply. If Mitsubishi were "mortally embarrassed" then they surely wouldn't have allowed it to happen as they are the parent company.
Your "professional" opinion on the validity of any quoted performance figures or any engineering integrity are completely irrelevant as at no point was this the basis of the argument, you just brought it in as a way to try and carry on with something you had already been proved wrong on.
"I have nothing more to add to this debate."
You would have been far better off going with this before you started showing yourself up.
Again I will have to highlight that no point have I given any sort of opinion on whether the performance figures stated by Mitsubishi UK are likely to be correct or not and at no point have I made any grand claims on their engineering integrity as it was completely irrelevant to the argument. It was actually you that decided to follow that route by providing counter arguments to claims which were not even being made as a tactic to deflect from the fact that you and your professionalism were being shown up. I haven't once bothered to try and refute your opinion on the "nature" of the car as again it was irrelevant and anyone with common sense, certainly someone claiming to be professional, should have and would have realised that it was in fact the marketing and the official manufacturer involvement of the car that I have been referring to in my posts and was a direct response to you claiming;
"The FQ-series are just the importer playing the same games as RevoTechnik. I'll bet the Japanese are mortally embarrassed that their name is used on such products."
To which my response was;
"The FQ400 and the FQ440 were developed by Mitsubishi UK and sold as official Mitsubishi products including manufacturer warranties. Not really the same thing is it?"
You have then continued to make claims that the FQ series are no more than an independent effort like Revo Technik, a notion that I have proven to be indeed incorrect and indeed to be a lot closer to an AMG product than any REVO product will be as;
1) Both AMG and CCC are wholly-owned subsidiaries of the parent companies supplying the base models to be modified
2) Both AMG and CCC products are/were sold through the manufacturers/parent companies official dealerships
3) Both AMG and CCC products are/were provided with full manufacturer warranties
None of these are applicable to Revo Technik or the products that they are able to supply. If Mitsubishi were "mortally embarrassed" then they surely wouldn't have allowed it to happen as they are the parent company.
Your "professional" opinion on the validity of any quoted performance figures or any engineering integrity are completely irrelevant as at no point was this the basis of the argument, you just brought it in as a way to try and carry on with something you had already been proved wrong on.
"I have nothing more to add to this debate."
You would have been far better off going with this before you started showing yourself up.
Edited by gigglebug on Saturday 20th February 16:57
To everyone sentient on this thread, AER has shown himself to be a knowledgable, articulate and fairly expert poster.
You, by contrast, have reminded me why so few people with actual knowledge post on here these days. People who know their stuff get frustrated with ignorant, small-minded, smart arse chumps like you that cannot even be respectful and pleasant.
I'm with gigglebug on this
The fq400/440 is an official Mitsubishi product like the amg. The revo stuff us pure aftermarket.
Although irrespective of this i find it very sad that people are so opinionated/aggressive.
This goes for both people.
"Experts" who cant see that maybe there are companies doing great things and people who suck up to these experts. Conversely there are people who have no knowledge at all and seem to just enjoy the argument.
Reading this thread, and the super turbo diesel thread (old Mercedes) really has me wondering what a lot of people are doing on this forum because they aren't car enthusiasts.
The fq400/440 is an official Mitsubishi product like the amg. The revo stuff us pure aftermarket.
Although irrespective of this i find it very sad that people are so opinionated/aggressive.
This goes for both people.
"Experts" who cant see that maybe there are companies doing great things and people who suck up to these experts. Conversely there are people who have no knowledge at all and seem to just enjoy the argument.
Reading this thread, and the super turbo diesel thread (old Mercedes) really has me wondering what a lot of people are doing on this forum because they aren't car enthusiasts.
ORD said:
You, by contrast, have reminded me why so few people with actual knowledge post on here these days. People who know their stuff get frustrated with ignorant, small-minded, smart arse chumps like you that cannot even be respectful and pleasant.
This is happening more and more on PH, there are experts in all sorts of fields who I'm sure we all appreciate hearing from but the constant abuse from self important know it alls who in reality know little is spoiling it for everybody. George111 said:
Look, we all knew what he meant, why argue a point like this ? In any case, if you follow the link to the article about the FQ-400 you'll see it's probably not even as good as a third party like Revo could achieve, whoever did what or what warranty came with it is irrelevant as it's a technically pants.
So your happy to defend a professional that is arguing a point that wasn't even being made? If you care to look back and actually read the posts you will see that indeed it was AER who decided to start the belittling, I merely reacted and showed where he/she was wrong.Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff