RE: 'The toughest, most capable Land Rover ever'
Discussion
300bhp/ton said:
As an "off road" maker, LR do seriously lack a proper off roader in their range.
Well, we'll see when the first year sales figures are published - I suspect that LR will sell many more new model Defenders than the previous model.LR are fortunate that they have decades of off-road and military heritage that is burned deeply in to the public's psyche - they are not going to lose that overnight; if needs must, to reinforce that they'll hold some high-profile off-road challenge events that will reach a global audience and (rightly or wrongly) confirm LR as 'the best 4x4 by far'.
It may be marketing b
ks, but in terms of sales potential, perception is v. important.300bhp/ton said:
jhonn said:
What you say is correct, however that is unlikely to matter to the majority of new buyers - it will not affect sales. Indeed, it's improved on-road performance and ergonomics is likely to make it more appealing.
For anyone who's going to spend circa 40k on a new vehicle it's off-road ability will be more than sufficient.
You are probably correct. Although as some have mentioned, maybe LR are indeed lacking the halo model. The one that helps get people into the showroom and interested in the brand. I'm not sure just another SUV will be this.For anyone who's going to spend circa 40k on a new vehicle it's off-road ability will be more than sufficient.
The RR does this for the top end luxury sector and has been very desirable. Indeed there are probably loads of Evoque owners who purchased largely based on being interested in the top tier Range Rover, but not able to afford one.
As an "off road" maker, LR do seriously lack a proper off roader in their range.
It’s that simple.
I don’t understand why you can’t see that the market you describe is too crowded, too difficult to enter and doesn’t fit with LRs wider ambitions.
People who have extensive industry experience have tried over numerous threads to politely explain this and yet you singularly fail to accept what they say. Almost all of them, like you and I, are devotees of the Land Rover brand and its heritage meaning that their opinions are motivated by knowledge and pragmatism as opposed to a desire to slate the company.
300bhp/ton said:
Thanks for link.
Although it is quite clear in the quoted comment in the article. It says "won't" meet emissions. Not "can't" meet. All this means is it currently didn't and they weren't going to do anything to make it.
Adding the required bits to meet Euro 6 quite literally was peanuts, as all the R&D had already been done for the other vehicles using the same engine. The Defenders engine bay is vast and there is plenty of space underneath. This was far more strategic and tactical than an engineering limitation.
If I can be bothered, I’ll dig out the quote about the SCR/DPF etc gubbins being a packaging issue - I think it was in Car Magazine. But, as we’ve seen, you know more than JLR’s own engineers (and designers, and marketers, and...)Although it is quite clear in the quoted comment in the article. It says "won't" meet emissions. Not "can't" meet. All this means is it currently didn't and they weren't going to do anything to make it.
Adding the required bits to meet Euro 6 quite literally was peanuts, as all the R&D had already been done for the other vehicles using the same engine. The Defenders engine bay is vast and there is plenty of space underneath. This was far more strategic and tactical than an engineering limitation.
jhonn said:
troika said:
sgtBerbatov said:
I'm not an off road expert, but that doesn't look like it has the same sort of ground clearance of the superior Land Cruiser, let alone the old Land Rover Defender?
Clearance doesn’t look too bad, might even be able to raise it at the push of a button (before it goes wrong). I can’t imagine Toyota are losing any sleep over it. More complicated than the traditional beam axles for sure but this is unlikely to be relevant to their target market; the system will be reliable enough for the first few years and couple of owners probably, by which time it is of no real concern to JLR. They will ensure that it is at least as capable as the traditional Defender off-road - there'll be plenty of marketing videos to demonstrate this. Off-road specialist vehicles like the Pinzgauer and Haflinger have independent suspension and are highly capable.
Lets be honest, in the UK and in fact in most of the world going "off road" is not actually about 3 feet of suspension travel and wading though 8 foot deep water. No, as Toyota correctly identified, and hence basically took over the entire "off road" market, going off road is about being able to reliably operate on unmade roads, none of which require massive (ie beard levels "i'm going to winch myself through this bottomless bog for 3 miles") capability, but a huge amount of basic reliability and robustness to high levels of vibration and dirt & dust ingress. Because an old Defender is a mechano kit, it's really really bad at doing just that, which is why the whole world now drives Japanese pickups, simply because they work, and keep working.
Most of the world is either paved or at least "Tracked" in 2019, the days of having to litterally forge your own road through a rain forest are both long gone, and in fact, socially un-acceptable today.
This new LR is exactly what it needs to be, which is not some rattling old beam axled dinosaur, but a modern, robust, good to drive and perfectly enough capable "off road" off-roader...........
Most of the world is either paved or at least "Tracked" in 2019, the days of having to litterally forge your own road through a rain forest are both long gone, and in fact, socially un-acceptable today.
This new LR is exactly what it needs to be, which is not some rattling old beam axled dinosaur, but a modern, robust, good to drive and perfectly enough capable "off road" off-roader...........
Max_Torque said:
Lets be honest, in the UK and in fact in most of the world going "off road" is not actually about 3 feet of suspension travel and wading though 8 foot deep water. No, as Toyota correctly identified, and hence basically took over the entire "off road" market, going off road is about being able to reliably operate on unmade roads, none of which require massive (ie beard levels "i'm going to winch myself through this bottomless bog for 3 miles") capability, but a huge amount of basic reliability and robustness to high levels of vibration and dirt & dust ingress. Because an old Defender is a mechano kit, it's really really bad at doing just that, which is why the whole world now drives Japanese pickups, simply because they work, and keep working.
Most of the world is either paved or at least "Tracked" in 2019, the days of having to litterally forge your own road through a rain forest are both long gone, and in fact, socially un-acceptable today.
This new LR is exactly what it needs to be, which is not some rattling old beam axled dinosaur, but a modern, robust, good to drive and perfectly enough capable "off road" off-roader...........
Good post IMO Most of the world is either paved or at least "Tracked" in 2019, the days of having to litterally forge your own road through a rain forest are both long gone, and in fact, socially un-acceptable today.
This new LR is exactly what it needs to be, which is not some rattling old beam axled dinosaur, but a modern, robust, good to drive and perfectly enough capable "off road" off-roader...........
Derek Chevalier said:
Wasn't the Defender pretty average off road towards the end of its life?
In my experience, yes. There are some basic design flaws that to be fair have been there for a long time - poor turning circle and limited front axle articulation. The addition of an anti-roll bar further limited cross-axle articulation (but improving on-road handling). To offset this traction control was fitted which to an extent kept all wheels driving - however, (and I have experienced this) when the tyres do start to spin even slightly the TC would cut the power to the engine which meant you couldn't get use power to get going/build up a little momentum to help you through the sticky stuff. I witnessed a late model defender effectively mired in about 2" of mud unable to move back or fore - the owner ended up removing fuses trying to disable the TC - not a happy chappy.
My brother-in-law has one of the last ones and I believe this aspect was improved.
TUS373 said:
Elephant in the room is LRs poor track record for reliability in recent years.
Yes, a week out of it's 3 year warranty my BIL's Defender has started going in to limp mode with turbo actuator issues, which LR are having trouble fixing. Another friend experienced cam lobe failure with the later Ford sourced engine.I like LR vehicles and have owned several but wouldn't have another (OK, maybe another early Series to tinker with
)TUS373 said:
If I happened to be visiting a desert, I would still favour an old Landcruiser if my life depended on it. Sorry LR. Especially so if against a new LR model despite 750,000 miles of testing.
And that has what to do with the new Defender?? (They aren't chasing that market...)
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-48103070
Comments section on the Slovakian production seems to be largely Brexit-based.
As for the car itself, I’ll reserve judgement until I see the finished article.
Comments section on the Slovakian production seems to be largely Brexit-based.
As for the car itself, I’ll reserve judgement until I see the finished article.
Brooking10 said:
Max_Torque said:
Lets be honest, in the UK and in fact in most of the world going "off road" is not actually about 3 feet of suspension travel and wading though 8 foot deep water. No, as Toyota correctly identified, and hence basically took over the entire "off road" market, going off road is about being able to reliably operate on unmade roads, none of which require massive (ie beard levels "i'm going to winch myself through this bottomless bog for 3 miles") capability, but a huge amount of basic reliability and robustness to high levels of vibration and dirt & dust ingress. Because an old Defender is a mechano kit, it's really really bad at doing just that, which is why the whole world now drives Japanese pickups, simply because they work, and keep working.
Most of the world is either paved or at least "Tracked" in 2019, the days of having to litterally forge your own road through a rain forest are both long gone, and in fact, socially un-acceptable today.
This new LR is exactly what it needs to be, which is not some rattling old beam axled dinosaur, but a modern, robust, good to drive and perfectly enough capable "off road" off-roader...........
Good post IMO Most of the world is either paved or at least "Tracked" in 2019, the days of having to litterally forge your own road through a rain forest are both long gone, and in fact, socially un-acceptable today.
This new LR is exactly what it needs to be, which is not some rattling old beam axled dinosaur, but a modern, robust, good to drive and perfectly enough capable "off road" off-roader...........
Seems like the new Discover is old Range Rover market and this new Defender is taking over old Discovery market - the market for the old Defender , ie farmers is moving to pickups
dvshannow said:
Well not if if follows the rest of JLR range in reliability terms
Seems like the new Discover is old Range Rover market and this new Defender is taking over old Discovery market - the market for the old Defender , ie farmers is moving to pickups
Ref para 1 - Have you had many Land Rovers ? Seems like the new Discover is old Range Rover market and this new Defender is taking over old Discovery market - the market for the old Defender , ie farmers is moving to pickups
Ref para 2 - Most sensible people on here agree with you
Brooking10 said:
dvshannow said:
Well not if if follows the rest of JLR range in reliability terms
Seems like the new Discover is old Range Rover market and this new Defender is taking over old Discovery market - the market for the old Defender , ie farmers is moving to pickups
Ref para 1 - Have you had many Land Rovers ? Seems like the new Discover is old Range Rover market and this new Defender is taking over old Discovery market - the market for the old Defender , ie farmers is moving to pickups
Ref para 2 - Most sensible people on here agree with you
But it’s generally not an uncontentious view that JLR cars are not the height in reliability , but we buy them still
300bhp/ton said:
camel_landy said:
+1 Please...
You really don't get it.
M
Well please explain in detail how and why a D4 or D5 are superior off road vehicles to the Defender then? That was your basic stance wasn't it?You really don't get it.
M
M
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