RE: VW ID.R breaks outright Goodwood record
Discussion
Cold said:
Have there been many serious attempts at this record since Heidfeld's run?
Nope, no serious contenders have been invited since...until the ID R appeared. I don't count the 308 T16 as a contender as in my opinion it was never going to get close to the record.
Edited by Deckert on Monday 8th July 16:37
Sway said:
Prizam said:
That car, on that run. Was using old tyres, with the wrong final gear ratios in. It sat bouncing the limiter for part of the track.
Set the GR51 up properly and it would smash the ID.R's time.
One of the new Gould cars, I think would get close to the 30s mark.
Strange how they haven't been invited back since setting that time....
Because there are staggeringly few people or businesses willing to cough up a couple of hundred quid for a weekend of watching an actual Hill climb?Set the GR51 up properly and it would smash the ID.R's time.
One of the new Gould cars, I think would get close to the 30s mark.
Strange how they haven't been invited back since setting that time....
FoS has never been focused on the competitive side. A serious percentage of Sunday punters leave to get home before the shootout even begins. Fewer than 5% of the cars run set a time.
Of course, it could go the route of Shelsley Walsh, etc. and become a fraction of the size, with no industry or corporate involvement, and hitting local businesses really hard.
Or it could stay the entertainment spectacle it is, and attract them in by the tens (hundreds) of thousands.
All we want to see is half a dozen genuine competitors in the final Shootout, from a variety of motorsport disciplines, all aiming to beat the record each year. Let’s see an F1 car, an LMP car, a rallycross car, a Superkart and a couple of hillclimb specials all seriously going for the win. They’ve resurfaced lots of the track and made many safety improvements over the years, and were quite happy to let a 39-second car have a go this weekend.
RacerMike said:
Graeme Wright Jnr had a go in his Gould GR51 and managed 42.9. A fast time, but given that they're pretty much the fastest hillclimb car you can get, Heidfeld's time and the ID.Rs time are both very, very quick.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kD5tBgr2LLc
Today's top hill climbers have around 200hp more than GW Jr had back in 2002, admittedly they're heavier. I bet Scott Moran, 6 time British champion has given up now expecting an invitation to drop through his door. Likewise, multi-European champions like Simone Faggioli, a hill climb legend, would have been invited by now if they were ever going to be. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kD5tBgr2LLc
Deckert said:
Today's top hill climbers have around 200hp more than GW Jr had back in 2002, admittedly they're heavier. I bet Scott Moran, 6 time British champion has given up now expecting an invitation to drop through his door. Likewise, multi-European champions like Simone Faggioli, a hill climb legend, would have been invited by now if they were ever going to be.
I don't think the event is really to be taken as a full competetive hill climb. There is an element of 'theatre' and managing the invited cars is part of that.Nothing wrong with that, but unless it becomes part of some hill climb championship, I don't think it should be classed the same.
Sandpit Steve said:
All we want to see is half a dozen genuine competitors in the final Shootout, from a variety of motorsport disciplines, all aiming to beat the record each year. Let’s see an F1 car, an LMP car, a rallycross car, a Superkart and a couple of hillclimb specials all seriously going for the win. They’ve resurfaced lots of the track and made many safety improvements over the years, and were quite happy to let a 39-second car have a go this weekend.
This...the timed hill climb is the heart of the FOS, all the razzmatazz that surrounds it can keep evolving separately but lets have really competitive timed runs from all the quickest forms of motor sport. Edited by Deckert on Monday 8th July 17:00
Deckert said:
Sandpit Steve said:
All we want to see is half a dozen genuine competitors in the final Shootout, from a variety of motorsport disciplines, all aiming to beat the record each year. Let’s see an F1 car, an LMP car, a rallycross car, a Superkart and a couple of hillclimb specials all seriously going for the win. They’ve resurfaced lots of the track and made many safety improvements over the years, and were quite happy to let a 39-second car have a go this weekend.
This...the timed hill climb is the heart of the FOS, all the razzmatazz that surrounds it can keep evolving separately but lets have really competitive timed runs from all the quickest forms of motor sport. Edited by Deckert on Monday 8th July 17:00
Various firms are willing to spend that cash on a BEV 'record' as they're getting their foot in very early with brand positioning marketing.
Renault having the WC winning car playing GSTQ and doing some show runs allegedly cost them over a million. Who's going to pay for re-engineering a LMP or F1 (actually, it's never happening for F1 until they can run proper current cars) car to do it?
CABC said:
TheDrBrian said:
Max_Torque said:
Crafty_ said:
And the 12th item is someone who will can't stand anything other but positive remarks about EVs has a rant to make himself feel better..
And yet, those ^^ people generally speaking, are quite open to the real world flaws of EVs. I certainly am! They are not a visceral as ICEs, which if you're a "car person" could be an issue, today they are expensive, in limited supply, and have a relatively short range, compared to state of the art ICEs.1) Boring - yes possibly, but lots of people drive diesel nissans and toyotas, which are also very boring, so if you drive one of those, you can drive an EV
2) Expensive - yes, but lots of cars are expensive. People spend £60k on something like an M3 and sit in traffic at 3mph for 99.9% of their time. And of course, the costs of EVs are falling, and falling fast
3) Limited supply - definitely, but this is a temporary issue, as more and more resource is pushed behind EVs,t hey will be available in ever increasing numbers
4) Range - more of a "mental issue". EVs currently can't do 600 miles on one charge. However, the main reason people need long range is because this is what they are used too. Most EV owners i speak too get over their "range anxiety" very quickly, and most would not go back to an ICE. Yes, some people do need to drive long distances without stopping, but in reality, that is a small segment of the market, especially in the UK
5) Unresolved, incomplete charging network - probably the biggest issue really, the one that people think is a problem. However, it's really not that hard to sort out your charging requirements, and for most people, certainly the people buying EVs today as second cars for local commuting, the vast majority (>98% in terms of energy transferred) is done at home. The current network is actually well underused, and it is getting bigger all the time. A step change is probably needed in terms of payment logistics, so a std payment card (debit/credit) can be used at any charger imo.
So yes, EVs DO have issues, but i can't see any particular issue that is really either unsolvable, can't be resolved with some education and explanation, or that in any way isn't massively outweighed by the enormousness positive advantages an EV brings to everyday private transit.
I’ll just have to keep the MX5 then.
But for serious driving they're some way off for at least a few years. My current mx5 track car is expiring and i cant think what to replace it with as most of the ICE alternatives are way too heavy for enjoyable and serious track work.
Deckert said:
RacerMike said:
Graeme Wright Jnr had a go in his Gould GR51 and managed 42.9. A fast time, but given that they're pretty much the fastest hillclimb car you can get, Heidfeld's time and the ID.Rs time are both very, very quick.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kD5tBgr2LLc
Today's top hill climbers have around 200hp more than GW Jr had back in 2002, admittedly they're heavier. I bet Scott Moran, 6 time British champion has given up now expecting an invitation to drop through his door. Likewise, multi-European champions like Simone Faggioli, a hill climb legend, would have been invited by now if they were ever going to be. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kD5tBgr2LLc
mcerbm said:
Deckert said:
RacerMike said:
Graeme Wright Jnr had a go in his Gould GR51 and managed 42.9. A fast time, but given that they're pretty much the fastest hillclimb car you can get, Heidfeld's time and the ID.Rs time are both very, very quick.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kD5tBgr2LLc
Today's top hill climbers have around 200hp more than GW Jr had back in 2002, admittedly they're heavier. I bet Scott Moran, 6 time British champion has given up now expecting an invitation to drop through his door. Likewise, multi-European champions like Simone Faggioli, a hill climb legend, would have been invited by now if they were ever going to be. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kD5tBgr2LLc
Deckert said:
This...the timed hill climb is the heart of the FOS, all the razzmatazz that surrounds it can keep evolving separately but lets have really competitive timed runs from all the quickest forms of motor sport.
It really isn't, IMO. I never got the impression that most people were there for the racing or paying much attention to the times. They were there for the cars, to see them in the paddock, to go round the static displays, to see and hear them blast past, but not really to see who won.Pvapour said:
Terminator X said:
cidered77 said:
How all very depressingly true. Do some of you people think you are being original saying they are milk floats or kitchen appliances? It's all so depressingly true to form - people playing out their roles to the letter: middle aged man who don't like change trying to cling to the past .
- an electric motor is 90% efficient. ICEs are what - 25%? Those base facts means they aren't going away no matter how much people don't like change. Yes you need to mine lithium and generate electricity - you need to take oil out of the ground too .
- there are billions and billions of R&D money going into battery development and production. Whilst the number of people who cite their regular kent to Cornwall commute as a reason never to buy an EV is clearly b
ks, range anxiety is just a footnote; it'll disappear within years. Too much money and brain power being thrown at that problem for it not to be...
- How we charge and charging infrastructure is the biggest issue, but not a barrier to everyone. But means EV only cannot be the end state...
- no matter how much you dislike change, market forces and the kids decide it anyway. You're annoyed your car sounds are going away? Get ready over the next 15 years for even owning a car let alone driving it to be an anachronism...
That Goodwood hill run is just impressive full stop though.Yes a modern F1 car would go faster yes so would a proper hill climb car blaah blaarrgh, but - this still did 39.9 didn't it?
Don't get this not owning a car "thing". Anyone and everyone can get a taxi to their destination today yet choose not to, why do you think that come the self drivers we will suddenly stop driving and use them when we don't even do that today with squidgy bodied self drivers?- an electric motor is 90% efficient. ICEs are what - 25%? Those base facts means they aren't going away no matter how much people don't like change. Yes you need to mine lithium and generate electricity - you need to take oil out of the ground too .
- there are billions and billions of R&D money going into battery development and production. Whilst the number of people who cite their regular kent to Cornwall commute as a reason never to buy an EV is clearly b
ks, range anxiety is just a footnote; it'll disappear within years. Too much money and brain power being thrown at that problem for it not to be...- How we charge and charging infrastructure is the biggest issue, but not a barrier to everyone. But means EV only cannot be the end state...
- no matter how much you dislike change, market forces and the kids decide it anyway. You're annoyed your car sounds are going away? Get ready over the next 15 years for even owning a car let alone driving it to be an anachronism...
That Goodwood hill run is just impressive full stop though.Yes a modern F1 car would go faster yes so would a proper hill climb car blaah blaarrgh, but - this still did 39.9 didn't it?
TX.
the hierarchy will still be there for those who need it, more money, nicer car group. just like the old car membership clubs but most likely run by the manufacturers, think some are doing it already.
It'll happen because it'll be as a means of transport objectively "better", so the kids will adopt it, so more will be spent developing vehicles and services, and so on and so on. Legislation is the main barrier - the tech is already there...
I'm not saying i like it especially, but then i'm in my 40s, so i'm hardly going to want to give away something (driving) i love so much. I'm just saying it'll happen... because the "thrill of driving" just won't be such a thing for the younger generation.
Bit off topic considering this thread is about a sub 40 second trot up lord march's hill, but there y'go!
otolith said:
Deckert said:
This...the timed hill climb is the heart of the FOS, all the razzmatazz that surrounds it can keep evolving separately but lets have really competitive timed runs from all the quickest forms of motor sport.
It really isn't, IMO. I never got the impression that most people were there for the racing or paying much attention to the times. They were there for the cars, to see them in the paddock, to go round the static displays, to see and hear them blast past, but not really to see who won.Then watch the stream of the shootout, and the gaps in the crowd. From my perception of over a dozen FoS weekend visits (I live within walking distance), I'd suggest more than half the Sunday crowd has left by the time the shootout is on.
Really, hardly anyone cares.
Many on here are mistaking Olympic weightlifting (serious hill climbs) with World's Strongest Man (FoS 'shootout').
Sway said:
Indeed. Watch through the vids. Huge crowds for the supercar section (which mostly segues into the Premier racing classes).
Then watch the stream of the shootout, and the gaps in the crowd. From my perception of over a dozen FoS weekend visits (I live within walking distance), I'd suggest more than half the Sunday crowd has left by the time the shootout is on.
Really, hardly anyone cares.
Many on here are mistaking Olympic weightlifting (serious hill climbs) with World's Strongest Man (FoS 'shootout').
i agree that Goodwood isn't a serious event, and the entry list is tightly controlled, etc- but still - the shootout is no less brilliant to watch. I'll get through days 1, 2 and 3 on youtube in the week after - some of the driving is properly on the limit, and it's such an eclectic bunch of cars and drivers (and levels of commitment) I find it very refreshingly different, and extremely watchable. Then watch the stream of the shootout, and the gaps in the crowd. From my perception of over a dozen FoS weekend visits (I live within walking distance), I'd suggest more than half the Sunday crowd has left by the time the shootout is on.
Really, hardly anyone cares.
Many on here are mistaking Olympic weightlifting (serious hill climbs) with World's Strongest Man (FoS 'shootout').
That Type 53 Bugatti from the 30s being quicker than cars from decades afterwards was a particular highlight - he was on it! Solberg Junior - what an absolute legend he was.
So "i care", i guess i'm saying. Even if i know it's not a real event.
Max_Torque said:
Prizam said:
One of the new Gould cars, I think would get close to the 30s mark.
wait, you think they would be 25% faster overall than the current fastest cars ever run? Hmm, i'm pretty dam sure not!cidered77 said:
Max_Torque said:
Prizam said:
One of the new Gould cars, I think would get close to the 30s mark.
wait, you think they would be 25% faster overall than the current fastest cars ever run? Hmm, i'm pretty dam sure not!Except they've also got the benefit of instantaneous torque, and the best possible feedback loop for traction control.
Sway said:
cidered77 said:
Max_Torque said:
Prizam said:
One of the new Gould cars, I think would get close to the 30s mark.
wait, you think they would be 25% faster overall than the current fastest cars ever run? Hmm, i'm pretty dam sure not!Except they've also got the benefit of instantaneous torque, and the best possible feedback loop for traction control.
So whilst the IDR has a lower maximum power to mass ratio, i bet its effective power to mass ratio is really rather good, ie the power it managed to apply to the ground to directly accelerate its mass, and being 4wd, with perfect traction ( and being able to modulate drive torque around 1,000 times a second, the systems can keep the tyres within single percentage point of maximum mu under all driving conditions.
I'm not saying a perfect run in a world class hill climb car wouldn't beat it (although it would be much harder to string that perfect run together) but that it would seem rather optimistic to assume it could be beaten by such a margin (25%) ie, the IDRs average speed up the hill was 104 mph, for it's 39.9 second run. To get to the finish in 30 seconds dead, the average speed would need to be 138 mph!
Sway said:
the best possible feedback loop for traction control.
I think that is a pretty key aspect with EV's vs ICE, I find it difficult to explain in simple terms, not least as people perhaps go to sleep 
But they way I think of it is, with the power delivery of an ICE you have to, for an IC, spin the engine into its rev range where its making enough power to get maximum traction, not smoke the tyres and not bog down, so you have all that reciprocating mass you then have to introduce to the drivetrain which goes from zero load to whatever you add.
Once the engine is spun up you have all that energy, fuel flowing, sparks etc and controlling that lot doesnt happen that quickly if you cut the fuel flow, retard the spark etc so you get that jerky intervention, much better nowadays but I remember an old Mondeo leaving me sat in the middle of a junction whilst it had a good old think.
With an EV, the torque is constant, the reciprocating mass is much smaller/lighter and you have control of it via huge magnets, so I get the impression you can vary the power to the motor much more quickly and accurately, similar control system to an ICE but its not trying to conduct the mechanical ballet of pistons, cams, crank, belts and everything. basically an EV is much better at keeping the tyres right on the edge of slipping. Add in four wheel drive you can see why the ID.R is never going to be much of a drift weapon.
So, am I talking rubbish with my pseudo engineering speak, anyone care to explain better/correctly.
I think its a bit nerdy but a very important facet of ev performance, and pretty fascinating (for me anyway), the Tesla Roadster can do 60 in 1.9 seconds.
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