RE: Lotus gears up for new sports car launch
Discussion
M4CK 1 said:
I certainly think Lotus are aiming, with their price range far to high.
How many people would buy an elise for 27k-35k, say with 180-200bhp engine at 900kg
An Exige for 40k -55k with 280-350bhp
An Esprit 60k - 100k with 400-500bhp.
The Esprit name needs to return, so many Lotus fans love the name and are dying to have one!
Keep it simple will bring buyers in!!!
Unfortunately we'll probably see a Hybrid which will just add weight and reduce the character of Lotus brand.
In reality they've been aiming low for decades. You can't sell a few hundred cars at those incredibly low prices and make money. Their entire problem is that they've focussed on ultra cheap and ultra low volume. Nowhere on planet Earth does the maths stack up for that. It's total madness. How many people would buy an elise for 27k-35k, say with 180-200bhp engine at 900kg
An Exige for 40k -55k with 280-350bhp
An Esprit 60k - 100k with 400-500bhp.
The Esprit name needs to return, so many Lotus fans love the name and are dying to have one!
Keep it simple will bring buyers in!!!
Unfortunately we'll probably see a Hybrid which will just add weight and reduce the character of Lotus brand.
If you're going to sell at the rock bottom prices that Lotus have been then they need massive volume, not 1500 units a year. And they won't ever get massive volume because they sell sports cars not SUVs, hatchbacks or fleet cars.
Their model for selling cars has been absolutely mental for years. Meanwhile, every other manufacturer has managed to understand that to sell more you need to charge more anyway as no one wants to buy something that's cheap. They're all desperate to borrow money to buy something that's over priced.
The world has overtly been going in one singular direction for years and Lotus Cars have been hemorrhaging cash trying to stop the planet and make it spin in a direction it doesn't want to.
The simple reality is that they need products that look more expensive than they are. Under the skin they are faultless.
DonkeyApple said:
M4CK 1 said:
I certainly think Lotus are aiming, with their price range far to high.
How many people would buy an elise for 27k-35k, say with 180-200bhp engine at 900kg
An Exige for 40k -55k with 280-350bhp
An Esprit 60k - 100k with 400-500bhp.
The Esprit name needs to return, so many Lotus fans love the name and are dying to have one!
Keep it simple will bring buyers in!!!
Unfortunately we'll probably see a Hybrid which will just add weight and reduce the character of Lotus brand.
In reality they've been aiming low for decades. You can't sell a few hundred cars at those incredibly low prices and make money. Their entire problem is that they've focussed on ultra cheap and ultra low volume. Nowhere on planet Earth does the maths stack up for that. It's total madness. How many people would buy an elise for 27k-35k, say with 180-200bhp engine at 900kg
An Exige for 40k -55k with 280-350bhp
An Esprit 60k - 100k with 400-500bhp.
The Esprit name needs to return, so many Lotus fans love the name and are dying to have one!
Keep it simple will bring buyers in!!!
Unfortunately we'll probably see a Hybrid which will just add weight and reduce the character of Lotus brand.
If you're going to sell at the rock bottom prices that Lotus have been then they need massive volume, not 1500 units a year. And they won't ever get massive volume because they sell sports cars not SUVs, hatchbacks or fleet cars.
Their model for selling cars has been absolutely mental for years. Meanwhile, every other manufacturer has managed to understand that to sell more you need to charge more anyway as no one wants to buy something that's cheap. They're all desperate to borrow money to buy something that's over priced.
The world has overtly been going in one singular direction for years and Lotus Cars have been hemorrhaging cash trying to stop the planet and make it spin in a direction it doesn't want to.
The simple reality is that they need products that look more expensive than they are. Under the skin they are faultless.
loads of special versions each one a bit more than previous
Its really pushed up used prices too
saaby93 said:
Surely that's what they been doing thanks to Gales
loads of special versions each one a bit more than previous
Its really pushed up used prices too
Gales did a great job with the products that he inherited but it was all fire fighting, desperately trying to push prices up on products that people just weren't willing to spend that kind of money on. It was like the company was trapped under the spell of the Elise after running away from the premium market at the end of the Esprit and the Evora was a fearful effort at trying to sell something more expensive. And they were almost apologetic about having something expensive on their shelves. loads of special versions each one a bit more than previous
Its really pushed up used prices too
Bahar was mental but he was the only person at Lotus in over twenty years to have ventured outside into the real world and realise that there was the biggest boom in human history taking place and that consumers were falling over themselves to obtain anything that made them look more successful than they were.
The Evora could have been a real game changer if only they'd had the confidence to point it at the segment the brand belongs to be in and gone for it.
The new car might do that. It might mean they have to drop the Elise so as to shift brand perception but if the 2021 cars looks more expensive than it is and we know the Lotus will drive better than its price tag then it will be an exciting year.
Yet, there is always that risk that it'll be another slightly dumpy looking car, aimed at the wrong segment in the market and delivered by some pathetically apologetic English folk.
For generations now the Elise and Exige are Lotus. My first Elise came in 98 and I had to wait 9 months for it. It was a wonderful car to drive and I’ve had loads of them since. I paid £23,300 for it new. They got more expensive as time went by but the residuals were strong as well.
Whilst I take your point, they should aim for the rarefied air of premium marquee, it’s just not feasible. From memory Britain’s biggest dealer hands out Corsas as loan/ warranty cars and the dealership experience isn’t what many would expect especially coming out of M cars and Porsche.
The Elise worked because, when new, it was a revelation and drove better, as a sports car, than all its contemporaries. My 98 car was about £10k less than a Boxster at that time as well.
I can’t see lotus ever hitting volumes so the cars could go out on cheap leases so most will buy or pcp. They need a sports car at sub £50k that doesn’t look like the one they started selling in 2001.
Whilst I take your point, they should aim for the rarefied air of premium marquee, it’s just not feasible. From memory Britain’s biggest dealer hands out Corsas as loan/ warranty cars and the dealership experience isn’t what many would expect especially coming out of M cars and Porsche.
The Elise worked because, when new, it was a revelation and drove better, as a sports car, than all its contemporaries. My 98 car was about £10k less than a Boxster at that time as well.
I can’t see lotus ever hitting volumes so the cars could go out on cheap leases so most will buy or pcp. They need a sports car at sub £50k that doesn’t look like the one they started selling in 2001.
highway said:
For generations now the Elise and Exige are Lotus. My first Elise came in 98 and I had to wait 9 months for it. It was a wonderful car to drive and I’ve had loads of them since. I paid £23,300 for it new. They got more expensive as time went by but the residuals were strong as well.
Whilst I take your point, they should aim for the rarefied air of premium marquee, it’s just not feasible. From memory Britain’s biggest dealer hands out Corsas as loan/ warranty cars and the dealership experience isn’t what many would expect especially coming out of M cars and Porsche.
The Elise worked because, when new, it was a revelation and drove better, as a sports car, than all its contemporaries. My 98 car was about £10k less than a Boxster at that time as well.
I can’t see lotus ever hitting volumes so the cars could go out on cheap leases so most will buy or pcp. They need a sports car at sub £50k that doesn’t look like the one they started selling in 2001.
Yep and I am not sure most volume buyers these days want a plastic car.Whilst I take your point, they should aim for the rarefied air of premium marquee, it’s just not feasible. From memory Britain’s biggest dealer hands out Corsas as loan/ warranty cars and the dealership experience isn’t what many would expect especially coming out of M cars and Porsche.
The Elise worked because, when new, it was a revelation and drove better, as a sports car, than all its contemporaries. My 98 car was about £10k less than a Boxster at that time as well.
I can’t see lotus ever hitting volumes so the cars could go out on cheap leases so most will buy or pcp. They need a sports car at sub £50k that doesn’t look like the one they started selling in 2001.
I have owned a Cayman, Elise and Caterham and to be honest the Elise is the best - a true all rounder for someone who loves driving and something that can truly do it all.
In reality it is too hardcore for most PH forum posters let alone those in the "real world" which is the problem. But if you genuinely love cars and driving, buy one and use it as your main car (provided 2 seats suffice). Just choose your price point and get it tweaked for your tastes. Anything from £15k upwards gets you something decent which is no money at all really.
M4CK 1 said:
How many people would buy an elise for 27k-35k, say with 180-200bhp engine at 900kg
An Exige for 40k -55k with 280-350bhp
An Esprit 60k - 100k with 400-500bhp.
I suspect the answer is "not very many" because the cars would still have the wrong badge for most people and anyway it doesn't matter how many they'd sell if they'd be making a loss on them, which at those prices they would. An Exige for 40k -55k with 280-350bhp
An Esprit 60k - 100k with 400-500bhp.
highway said:
...I paid £23,300 for it new. They got more expensive as time went by...
£23,300 in 1998 is £41,929 in 2020 according to the Bank of England inflation calculator. Going to the Lotus website, the Elise is £41,695 on the road. 
Edited by leglessAlex on Saturday 23 January 19:08
leglessAlex said:
highway said:
...I paid £23,300 for it new. They got more expensive as time went by...
£23,300 in 1998 is £41,929 in 2020 accoring to the Bank of England inflation calculator. Accoring to the Lotus website, the Elise is £41,695 on the road. kambites said:
leglessAlex said:
highway said:
...I paid £23,300 for it new. They got more expensive as time went by...
£23,300 in 1998 is £41,929 in 2020 according to the Bank of England inflation calculator. Going to the Lotus website, the Elise is £41,695 on the road. I looked up the price of a Ford Fiesta, in 1999 it started at £6,875 according to Parkers, which is a bit above £12k in todays money. The Fiesta currenty starts at about £16k.
Luxury cars appear to be 'cheaper' now, the Boxster was £60k equivalent in 1996 and it's only £46k today.
Either way, it's just one of those arguments that I know seems a bit pedantic, but I think is important to keep in mind when saying a car was cheaper 15/20/30 years ago.
SidewaysSi said:
Yep and I am not sure most volume buyers these days want a plastic car.
I have owned a Cayman, Elise and Caterham and to be honest the Elise is the best - a true all rounder for someone who loves driving and something that can truly do it all.
Come on! The last thing an Elise (great car that it STILL is) is an all rounder. It is too unrefined and is too impractical (really) as a touring holiday car. That is what is wrong with it! The Alpine completely defeats it as an all rounder - as does the Cayman. (I've owned all three and used them all as dailies). I don't honestly think fibreglass is a turn off - most wouldn't even know if it was done well. On the other hand Carbon Fibre has too much kudos and aluminium too little.I have owned a Cayman, Elise and Caterham and to be honest the Elise is the best - a true all rounder for someone who loves driving and something that can truly do it all.
leglessAlex said:
saaby93 said:
Isnt buying Lotus partly due to its British Heritage = that doesnt work for a Cayman or a Boxster
Ubiquitous MX5 is there and based on an elan
Alfa 4c
Alpine
I know I'm a sample of one, but the British built aspect is something that didn't factor into me stumping up the money for an Evora. Ubiquitous MX5 is there and based on an elan
Alfa 4c
Alpine
It's nice to know that my purchase is, in a small way, helping to keep a number of people employed in Norfolk, but it wasn't in any way a driving factor. That said, I've heard that sales in every other market is very very much driven by that 'British sports car' prestige, particularly in markets like Japan.
SidewaysSi said:
Yep and I am not sure most volume buyers these days want a plastic car.
I have owned a Cayman, Elise and Caterham and to be honest the Elise is the best - a true all rounder for someone who loves driving and something that can truly do it all.
In reality it is too hardcore for most PH forum posters let alone those in the "real world" which is the problem. But if you genuinely love cars and driving, buy one and use it as your main car (provided 2 seats suffice). Just choose your price point and get it tweaked for your tastes. Anything from £15k upwards gets you something decent which is no money at all really.
Aston use GRP panels. You just have to call it 'composite' nowadays. It's all about the branding. I have owned a Cayman, Elise and Caterham and to be honest the Elise is the best - a true all rounder for someone who loves driving and something that can truly do it all.
In reality it is too hardcore for most PH forum posters let alone those in the "real world" which is the problem. But if you genuinely love cars and driving, buy one and use it as your main car (provided 2 seats suffice). Just choose your price point and get it tweaked for your tastes. Anything from £15k upwards gets you something decent which is no money at all really.
DonkeyApple said:
In reality they've been aiming low for decades. You can't sell a few hundred cars at those incredibly low prices and make money. Their entire problem is that they've focussed on ultra cheap and ultra low volume.
Let's have a look at some of these ultra cheap Lotus cars,Base MX5 - £23,550
Base Elise - £44,640
Base F-type - £54,510
Base Exige - £59,600
Base Evora - £82,900
There must be some part of the word "cheap" that I've failed to understand.
Well, either that or the problem simply isn't the price - it's lack of sales.
bcr5784 said:
SidewaysSi said:
Yep and I am not sure most volume buyers these days want a plastic car.
I have owned a Cayman, Elise and Caterham and to be honest the Elise is the best - a true all rounder for someone who loves driving and something that can truly do it all.
Come on! The last thing an Elise (great car that it STILL is) is an all rounder. It is too unrefined and is too impractical (really) as a touring holiday car. That is what is wrong with it! The Alpine completely defeats it as an all rounder - as does the Cayman. (I've owned all three and used them all as dailies). I don't honestly think fibreglass is a turn off - most wouldn't even know if it was done well. On the other hand Carbon Fibre has too much kudos and aluminium too little.I have owned a Cayman, Elise and Caterham and to be honest the Elise is the best - a true all rounder for someone who loves driving and something that can truly do it all.
Of course an Elise can be as extreme as you want. I think a nice S3 with all the comfort bits makes a very useable daily driver. Of course an Alpine is further down the scale in that respect but if you want a truly stunning driving experience, huge communication, manual 'box, useability, strong residuals, ability to go to the supermarket then thrash around a circuit all day etc., the Elise is pretty unsurpassed IMO for sensible money.
Interestingly I need a car with rear seats now which can be used as a family car. Got a 911 - didn't even consider an Evora as it just doesn't appeal at all.
highway said:
The inflation argument doesn’t really hold. I moved from a 97 MX5 to my first Elise. Cost to change was less than £10k then. An Elise now is 2 x MX5 ( given some discount)
You say doesn't really hold, but I don't really know what you mean by that? You can run the numbers through an inflation calculator if you want, it's fairly black and white. An MX-5 appears to be about £4k cheaper in real terms now as it was in 1998, and the Elise isn't any cheaper. As otolith says, this is somewhat surprising given the respective sizes of Lotus and Mazda.
What I’m getting at (badly) is that in the late 90’s an Elise was £10k cheaper than a Boxster and a unique experience driving wise. It was comparable performance wise by traditional metrics as well.
Today’s 220 Elise is better built than an S2 from 2001 and feels it. But list is nigh on the same as for a 718 Boxster.
The biggest competitor for a modern Elise are old Elises. I’m in a 981 now and it’s a good car. For me, my old 111S destroys it for engagement and fun.That said, a 220 palpably does not feel like a £35k car. Let alone £40k.
Today’s 220 Elise is better built than an S2 from 2001 and feels it. But list is nigh on the same as for a 718 Boxster.
The biggest competitor for a modern Elise are old Elises. I’m in a 981 now and it’s a good car. For me, my old 111S destroys it for engagement and fun.That said, a 220 palpably does not feel like a £35k car. Let alone £40k.
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