Tuner fined for pop and bang map & decat fitting
Discussion
carlo996 said:
D4rez said:
Not incompatible with EVs, at least you’ve got to hope because classic car nerds are a perennial dying breed and there won’t be new ICE cars. It won’t be long before battery tech can cope with a track day
Have you ever owned an interesting vehicle? Have to ask. carlo996 said:
Nomme de Plum said:
I haven't but perhaps take advice from other posters here. There is only one out of step here and it isn't them.
Whatever, you’re not worth the time to argue with. Same old boring stuff about EV’s and your past. I really don’t care that much tbh. Life will be much more enjoyable if you stop trying to fight against the future.
D4rez said:
Sure loads of them, but it’s moronic to think they need an engine to be interesting. And pointless because the ICE is about to die. May as well look forward to cars like the mid-battery new porsche cayman and lotus future EV. Otherwise you’re going to have to just buy used cars, even if you don’t like that. That’s my point.
It really is a bit sad that some cannot appreciate our heritage and accept the future. It's like those that are terrified of the benefits that AI may bring incase they get left behind. Albeit they will still demand the best cutting edge medical treatment should it be required. 
Nomme de Plum said:
D4rez said:
Sure loads of them, but it’s moronic to think they need an engine to be interesting. And pointless because the ICE is about to die. May as well look forward to cars like the mid-battery new porsche cayman and lotus future EV. Otherwise you’re going to have to just buy used cars, even if you don’t like that. That’s my point.
It really is a bit sad that some cannot appreciate our heritage and accept the future. It's like those that are terrified of the benefits that AI may bring incase they get left behind. Albeit they will still demand the best cutting edge medical treatment should it be required. 520TORQUES said:
youngsyr said:
That doesn't state what you think it does.
That means you can not alter a silencer system, it does not mean you can not fit an alternative system, even one which is louder.
It makes no specific mention of fitting an alternative exhuast system, but that would by definition be a modification to the existing exhaust system, which cannot make it louder.
Edited by youngsyr on Saturday 25th November 22:53
youngsyr said:
520TORQUES said:
youngsyr said:
That doesn't state what you think it does.That means you can not alter a silencer system, it does not mean you can not fit an alternative system, even one which is louder.
It makes no specific mention of fitting an alternative exhuast system, but that would by definition be a modification to the existing exhaust system, which cannot make it louder.
Edited by youngsyr on Saturday 25th November 22:53
The legislation is to cover modification of existing components, it does not restrict the replacement of existing components with something else that is compliant, which can be louder.
You can purchase and fit completely legally after market systems.
For example, here is the EC type approval certificate for one of the Nissan GTR systems made by Akrapovic.
https://d1sfhav1wboke3.cloudfront.net/ImageServer/...
The document states "EC Type-Approval Certificate with respect to the use a non-original exhaust system for a type of car in road traffic"
The certificate also lists the parts that are original OEM and the parts replaced by the different new components, you can mix and match components within the system, you just are not allowed to make any changes to those components at a later date, by for example, removing the baffles.
If you look on their website, all the products listed with EC in a square box are EU type approved and legal for use in the UK and EU.
https://www.akrapovic.com/en/car/products/Nissan/G...
Edited by 520TORQUES on Saturday 25th November 23:21
520TORQUES said:
youngsyr said:
520TORQUES said:
youngsyr said:
That doesn't state what you think it does.That means you can not alter a silencer system, it does not mean you can not fit an alternative system, even one which is louder.
It makes no specific mention of fitting an alternative exhuast system, but that would by definition be a modification to the existing exhaust system, which cannot make it louder.
Edited by youngsyr on Saturday 25th November 22:53
The legislation is to cover modification of existing components, it does not restrict the replacement of existing components with something else that is compliant, which can be louder.
You can purchase and fit completely legally after market systems.
For example, here is the EC type approval certificate for one of the Nissan GTR systems made by Akrapovic.
https://d1sfhav1wboke3.cloudfront.net/ImageServer/...
The document states "EC Type-Approval Certificate with respect to the use a non-original exhaust system for a type of car in road traffic"
If you look on their website, all the products listed with EC in a square box are EU type approved and legal for use in the UK and EU.
https://www.akrapovic.com/en/car/products/Nissan/G...
Edited by 520TORQUES on Saturday 25th November 23:16
There *may* be an overruling piece of legislation that states a type approved exhuast can be fitted which is louder, but that is a very specific edge case - the vast majority of aftermarket exhausts are not type approved.
On top of that, the Akrapovic exhaust you linked is EC type approved; we haven't been in the EU for nearly two years now, so even in your edge case there's the possibility that it is or soon will be illegal.
youngsyr said:
The legislation states what it states, and is pretty clear. You cannot alter an existing exhaust system or silencer to make it louder. Replacing part of a system with a different part is by definition an alteration to the system and so is covered within the construction and use regulations.
There *may* be an overruling piece of legislation that states a type approved exhuast can be fitted which is louder, but that is a very specific edge case - the vast majority of aftermarket exhausts are not type approved.
On top of that, the Akrapovic exhaust you linked is EC type approved; we haven't been in the EU for nearly two years now, so even in your edge case there's the possibility that it is or soon will be illegal.
What a load of nonsense.There *may* be an overruling piece of legislation that states a type approved exhuast can be fitted which is louder, but that is a very specific edge case - the vast majority of aftermarket exhausts are not type approved.
On top of that, the Akrapovic exhaust you linked is EC type approved; we haven't been in the EU for nearly two years now, so even in your edge case there's the possibility that it is or soon will be illegal.
Why cant you admit you are wrong?
It's not an edge case, it's a system that has been used since the invention of the car that aftermarket components can replace OEM so long as they meet the legal requirements in place at the time. Where do you think your Kwik Fit systems come from? They are not OEM, they are pattern parts that are different to OEM.
Being a member of the EU or not is irrelevant, the UK is using and will continue to allow the use of EU type approved components, there is zero chance of that changing, even if the UK enables it's own type approval process for UK built cars, it will comply with EU and UN rules.
520TORQUES said:
youngsyr said:
The legislation states what it states, and is pretty clear. You cannot alter an existing exhaust system or silencer to make it louder. Replacing part of a system with a different part is by definition an alteration to the system and so is covered within the construction and use regulations.
There *may* be an overruling piece of legislation that states a type approved exhuast can be fitted which is louder, but that is a very specific edge case - the vast majority of aftermarket exhausts are not type approved.
On top of that, the Akrapovic exhaust you linked is EC type approved; we haven't been in the EU for nearly two years now, so even in your edge case there's the possibility that it is or soon will be illegal.
How There *may* be an overruling piece of legislation that states a type approved exhuast can be fitted which is louder, but that is a very specific edge case - the vast majority of aftermarket exhausts are not type approved.
On top of that, the Akrapovic exhaust you linked is EC type approved; we haven't been in the EU for nearly two years now, so even in your edge case there's the possibility that it is or soon will be illegal.
What a load of nonsense.
Why cant you admit you are wrong?
It's not an edge case, it's a system that has been used since the invention of the car that aftermarket components can replace OEM so long as they meet the legal requirements in place at the time. Where do you think your Kwik Fit systems come from? They are not OEM, they are pattern parts that are different to OEM.
Being a member of the EU or not is irrelevant, the UK is using and will continue to allow the use of EU type approved components, there is zero chance of that changing, even if the UK enables it's own type approval process for UK built cars, it will comply with EU and UN rules.
And you keep bringing in irrelevant examples, first Akrapovic, now Kwik fit, who don't even make exhausts???
520TORQUES said:
youngsyr said:
I'm not wrong - how can I be: all I've written is exactly what the law says?
And you keep bringing in irrelevant examples, first Akrapovic, now Kwik fit, who don't even make exhausts???
You are a lost cause. Hopefully the info i provided is useful to someone.And you keep bringing in irrelevant examples, first Akrapovic, now Kwik fit, who don't even make exhausts???
Seems fairly black and white.
Policing it is another matter of course, but then the thread is about exactly that.
heebeegeetee said:
The law says "shall not be altered so as to increase the noise".
Seems fairly black and white.
Policing it is another matter of course, but then the thread is about exactly that.
a matter of interpretation. Mod your exhaust for the purpose of increasing noise = illegal. Mod your exhaust for performance and the noise increases as a by-product of this = legalSeems fairly black and white.
Policing it is another matter of course, but then the thread is about exactly that.
heebeegeetee said:
The law says "shall not be altered so as to increase the noise".
Seems fairly black and white.
Policing it is another matter of course, but then the thread is about exactly that.
That is in reference to modifying a component. You are free to replace any component with another that meets the regulations. This is how cars have none OEM components installed when they are repaired.Seems fairly black and white.
Policing it is another matter of course, but then the thread is about exactly that.
OEM's only have an obligation to supply spare parts for 10 years after production ends, none OEM fill that void for parts supply post the 10 year cut off, they often are producing parts for cars much sooner than that period in higher demand product lines.
To receive a type approval certificate, the exhaust system does not have to match the original noise level, all it has to do is meet the maximum level allowed and still meet the emissions regulations. This is how systems like those i provided the certificate for are louder than stock, but still type approved.
DodgyGeezer said:
a matter of interpretation. Mod your exhaust for the purpose of increasing noise = illegal. Mod your exhaust for performance and the noise increases as a by-product of this = legal
520TORQUES said:
That is in reference to modifying a component. You are free to replace any component with another that meets the regulations. This is how cars have none OEM components installed when they are repaired.
OEM's only have an obligation to supply spare parts for 10 years after production ends, none OEM fill that void for parts supply post the 10 year cut off, they often are producing parts for cars much sooner than that period in higher demand product lines.
To receive a type approval certificate, the exhaust system does not have to match the original noise level, all it has to do is meet the maximum level allowed and still meet the emissions regulations. This is how systems like those i provided the certificate for are louder than stock, but still type approved.
Guys, I think these are your interpretations, and possibly haven't been fully tested in court. I think a court would be the final arbiter of this, and like a lot of cases possibly, would come down to the performance of the lawyers on the day.OEM's only have an obligation to supply spare parts for 10 years after production ends, none OEM fill that void for parts supply post the 10 year cut off, they often are producing parts for cars much sooner than that period in higher demand product lines.
To receive a type approval certificate, the exhaust system does not have to match the original noise level, all it has to do is meet the maximum level allowed and still meet the emissions regulations. This is how systems like those i provided the certificate for are louder than stock, but still type approved.
heebeegeetee said:
Guys, I think these are your interpretations, and possibly haven't been fully tested in court. I think a court would be the final arbiter of this, and like a lot of cases possibly, would come down to the performance of the lawyers on the day.
The CPS won't prosecute a type approved replacement part, it's completely legal to use.520TORQUES said:
The CPS won't prosecute a type approved replacement part, it's completely legal to use.
Because of the wording of the law, I would dispute 'completely legal', but I agree this will never be prosecuted, never be tested, we'll never know. :-)Were I a garage I'd be happy to fit*, the garage that has been fined £7k probably brought it on itself.
* I did run a garage business for 10 years, I fitted very little after market stuff because I view 95% of it as absolute garbage, and I wouldn't fit garbage to customers cars. We got involved with a franchised supplier of stainless exhausts for a specific car, simply because of the high cost of replacement parts for this car; we soon regretted it as these exhausts cracked up, like many stainless systems do, necessitating us in removing these systems at fiscal and reputational cost to ourselves.
heebeegeetee said:
DodgyGeezer said:
a matter of interpretation. Mod your exhaust for the purpose of increasing noise = illegal. Mod your exhaust for performance and the noise increases as a by-product of this = legal
520TORQUES said:
That is in reference to modifying a component. You are free to replace any component with another that meets the regulations. This is how cars have none OEM components installed when they are repaired.
OEM's only have an obligation to supply spare parts for 10 years after production ends, none OEM fill that void for parts supply post the 10 year cut off, they often are producing parts for cars much sooner than that period in higher demand product lines.
To receive a type approval certificate, the exhaust system does not have to match the original noise level, all it has to do is meet the maximum level allowed and still meet the emissions regulations. This is how systems like those i provided the certificate for are louder than stock, but still type approved.
Guys, I think these are your interpretations, and possibly haven't been fully tested in court. I think a court would be the final arbiter of this, and like a lot of cases possibly, would come down to the performance of the lawyers on the day.OEM's only have an obligation to supply spare parts for 10 years after production ends, none OEM fill that void for parts supply post the 10 year cut off, they often are producing parts for cars much sooner than that period in higher demand product lines.
To receive a type approval certificate, the exhaust system does not have to match the original noise level, all it has to do is meet the maximum level allowed and still meet the emissions regulations. This is how systems like those i provided the certificate for are louder than stock, but still type approved.
• You cannot look at one line in isolation (para (2) for example); you have to look at the whole. For the sake of argument I will assume that the quoted excerpt IS the whole on this subject.
• Para (1) states an ICE shall be fitted with an exhaust including a silencer. Note that although the drafter must have known that exhausts wear out and need replacement, it does not say it must be the same as original one. It also says nothing about how noisy it is. Absolutely any exhaust with silencing through which all gases flow complies with this paragraph.
• Para (2) then says that the exhaust complying with para (1),which can be as quiet or as noisy as you choose, cannot be modified to make it noisier- so you cannot drill holes in it or remove baffles.
• Para (2) is not clear about whether say replacing backbox A with noisier backbox B is a modification and hence illegal, but as backbox B would have been fine if fitted as part of a whole new system, it seems illogical to say that is illegal. Poor drafting of the regulations and a possible day in court.
None of this means you can have an exhaust as loud as you like, but the regulation on that are not contained in para 54 as quoted.
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