RE: Ariel Atom 500 V8 Announced

[RobM77]

jon b16 said:

RobM77 said:

jon b16 said:

RobM77 said:

jon b16 said:

Here's a couple of vids of me in the 300...

straight line performance.... 0 to 90mph in 5.3secs - this vid is from 0-80mph (on private road of course )
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RoLhzTFoS10

First time in the atom on track - you can hardly criticise the handling can you?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2uvtSsZ7DI

Those are some great videos there. Very smooth driving - in fact so much so it's hard to tell how close you were to the limit How close were you to the limit, and how to they handle if you're going for a quick lap?

Cheers - 1st time in the car on circuit so i reckon there was a fair bit left in the car - especially under braking

I'd agree, yes; quite a bit left under braking, but also in most of the corners. Have you had a chance to push it yet on track and see what it's like at the limit?

you must really know your stuff

Assuming there's a hint of sarcasm there, sorry if my questions came across the wrong way! I just realise you've had lots of different cars of this type and so was very interested in what you thought of the handling of the Atom. I'm considering giving up racing on cost grounds in a year or two, and might just get myself a trackday car. I've no experience of the Atom, so it intrigues me You've obviously got the experience to make a very valid judgement.

[jon b16]

RobM77 said:

jon b16 said:

RobM77 said:

jon b16 said:

RobM77 said:

jon b16 said:

Here's a couple of vids of me in the 300...

straight line performance.... 0 to 90mph in 5.3secs - this vid is from 0-80mph (on private road of course )
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RoLhzTFoS10

First time in the atom on track - you can hardly criticise the handling can you?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2uvtSsZ7DI

Those are some great videos there. Very smooth driving - in fact so much so it's hard to tell how close you were to the limit How close were you to the limit, and how to they handle if you're going for a quick lap?

Cheers - 1st time in the car on circuit so i reckon there was a fair bit left in the car - especially under braking

I'd agree, yes; quite a bit left under braking, but also in most of the corners. Have you had a chance to push it yet on track and see what it's like at the limit?

you must really know your stuff

Assuming there's a hint of sarcasm there, sorry if my questions came across the wrong way! I just realise you've had lots of different cars of this type and so was very interested in what you thought of the handling of the Atom. I'm considering giving up racing on cost grounds in a year or two, and might just get myself a trackday car. I've no experience of the Atom, so it intrigues me You've obviously got the experience to make a very valid judgement.

I think the atom is very, very good - all depends what you want from a car. If you want a pure track day car there are a lot of cheaper alternatives. Radical is prob the best all round track tool imo but isn't as playful as a 7 or atom. Personally, i liked going back to a h shift box with constant over/ understeer. Radicals are too clinical to me long term. Rad, 7 and atom are all stunning cars but do quite different things so people need to outline what they want from a car before a real short list can be thought through. Budgets/ road/track mix etc etc

[STASH]

THINK IVE READ ENOUGH OF THIS OVER THE LAST THREE DAYS I DRIVE A IMPREZA WRX AND RIDE A YAMAHA R6 NOTHING SPECIAL. I WILL ADMIT AND I WRITE IN CAPITALS SO EVEN THE SIMPLETONS WILL UNDERSTAND SO MUCH TESTOSTERONE IN ONE PLACE IS SCARY WILL STICK TO READING THE CLASIFIED FROM NOW ON LOL

[Miguel]

Los Angeles said:

Miguel said:

When I'm driving my MX5 and ...I simply don't get this 500 hp Atom. To me, it looks like an exercise in chasing numbers. Don't get me wrong: I can appreciate the sheer insanity of it, Miguel

I couldn't agree with you more about both cars. But what I like about the V8 Atom is how it shames the VW Veyron Viagra - to knowt it will outgun a car someone has paid a fortune to own is very amusing. It makes you wonder about the sanity of Piech aiming to build the fastest luxury barge on the planet and not acknowledging some car company somewhere will out-do it within a few months.

Well, there was a Dax Rush several years ago with a turbocharged Hayabusa engine by Holeshot of England putting out 380 hp or so. Its power to weight ratio was said to be around 800hp/ton. It may not have been cheap, but it was a bargain compared to this Atom or the similarly engined Hayabusa. IIRC the owner of Holeshot was quoted in the article as saying that his most powerful Hayabusa engines can only be fully used and appreciated on four wheels, so he was buying a Rush. At certain speeds, that Dax might give a Veyron a scare.

Miguel

Edited 'cause I signed twice.

Edited by Miguel on Sunday 2nd March 05:56

[Miguel]

Los Angeles said:

Miguel said:

I just don't ever see myself saying that what my MX5 needs is another 935 hp. Miguel

And where do you drive it? Legally and safely? Again, you're absolutely right, the MX5 despeately needs one more MX5 model with an engine that can compete with the Z4s and Boxsters - both of those companies have engine choices, why not Mazda? There's constant rumours issue from their R&D here in California that they've slipped their 2.5 into it but trumours are invariably followed by silence. I suspect they will keep a bigger engine for the new RX7 which is a shame really because itmeans the MX5 is left to the aftermarket boys and add ons. I'd rather have a naturally aspirated engine.

Yeah, LA, like I said, they did build a Ford 3 liter V6 MX5 prototype, but nothing came of it. Check out these links. I think you'll appreciate this project, especially if you haven't seen it before.

http://majica.net/JNR/here.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=toughTZ9PIw

Regards,

Miguel

[otolith]

Miguel said:

But what you're trying to show is that the friction is independent of the mass or weight of the car.

No, not at all.

What I'm demonstrating is simply that although a heavier car generates more traction (because Fmax=μR )it needs more traction to achieve the same acceleration (because F = ma) and so greater mass confers no accelerative advantage.

Doubling the mass doubles the lateral force you can apply through the tyres, but it also doubles the amount of lateral force you need to apply.

[RobM77]

otolith said:

Miguel said:

But what you're trying to show is that the friction is independent of the mass or weight of the car.

No, not at all.

What I'm demonstrating is simply that although a heavier car generates more traction (because Fmax=μR )it needs more traction to achieve the same acceleration (because F = ma) and so greater mass confers no accelerative advantage.

Doubling the mass doubles the lateral force you can apply through the tyres, but it also doubles the amount of lateral force you need to apply.

Maybe I'm joining this one late, but surely it's common sense that mass cancels out in the equations of cornering? Otherwise a lorry would corner faster than a Caterham

Edited by RobM77 on Sunday 2nd March 14:03

[otolith]

RobM77 said:

Maybe I'm joining this one late, but surely it's common sense that mass cancels out in the equations of cornering? Otherwise a lorry would corner faster than a Caterham

It was really about acceleration rather than cornering, but yes, that's exactly the same issue.

(I should probably have used longitudinal rather than lateral in the last post, what I really meant was "in the horizontal plane" )

Edited by otolith on Sunday 2nd March 14:36

[RobM77]

otolith said:

RobM77 said:

Maybe I'm joining this one late, but surely it's common sense that mass cancels out in the equations of cornering? Otherwise a lorry would corner faster than a Caterham

It was really about acceleration rather than cornering, but yes, that's exactly the same issue.

(I should probably have used longitudinal rather than lateral in the last post, what I really meant was "in the horizontal plane" )

Edited by otolith on Sunday 2nd March 14:36

ah, ok Yes, mass cancels out in that plane too (actually the same thing as far as Physics is concerned). F = ma still applies though, so obviously a car with less mass to move accelerates faster for a given force.

[jon b16]

Miguel said:

Los Angeles said:

Miguel said:

When I'm driving my MX5 and ...I simply don't get this 500 hp Atom. To me, it looks like an exercise in chasing numbers. Don't get me wrong: I can appreciate the sheer insanity of it, Miguel

I couldn't agree with you more about both cars. But what I like about the V8 Atom is how it shames the VW Veyron Viagra - to knowt it will outgun a car someone has paid a fortune to own is very amusing. It makes you wonder about the sanity of Piech aiming to build the fastest luxury barge on the planet and not acknowledging some car company somewhere will out-do it within a few months.

Well, there was a Dax Rush several years ago with a turbocharged Hayabusa engine by Holeshot of England putting out 380 hp or so. Its power to weight ratio was said to be around 800hp/ton. It may not have been cheap, but it was a bargain compared to this Atom or the similarly engined Hayabusa. IIRC the owner of Holeshot was quoted in the article as saying that his most powerful Hayabusa engines can only be fully used and appreciated on four wheels, so he was buying a Rush. At certain speeds, that Dax might give a Veyron a scare.

Miguel

Edited 'cause I signed twice.

Edited by Miguel on Sunday 2nd March 05:56

Not faster than the atom 300, http://www.evo.co.uk/carreviews/cargrouptests/2047...
will need engine rebuilds often - unlike the Type R engined Atom. Was there anyhting else to say about the Dax....hmmmm , Nah

[Miguel]

jon b16 said:

Miguel said:

Los Angeles said:

Miguel said:

When I'm driving my MX5 and ...I simply don't get this 500 hp Atom. To me, it looks like an exercise in chasing numbers. Don't get me wrong: I can appreciate the sheer insanity of it, Miguel

I couldn't agree with you more about both cars. But what I like about the V8 Atom is how it shames the VW Veyron Viagra - to knowt it will outgun a car someone has paid a fortune to own is very amusing. It makes you wonder about the sanity of Piech aiming to build the fastest luxury barge on the planet and not acknowledging some car company somewhere will out-do it within a few months.

Well, there was a Dax Rush several years ago with a turbocharged Hayabusa engine by Holeshot of England putting out 380 hp or so. Its power to weight ratio was said to be around 800hp/ton. It may not have been cheap, but it was a bargain compared to this Atom or the similarly engined Hayabusa. IIRC the owner of Holeshot was quoted in the article as saying that his most powerful Hayabusa engines can only be fully used and appreciated on four wheels, so he was buying a Rush. At certain speeds, that Dax might give a Veyron a scare.

Miguel

Edited 'cause I signed twice.

Edited by Miguel on Sunday 2nd March 05:56

Not faster than the atom 300, http://www.evo.co.uk/carreviews/cargrouptests/2047...
will need engine rebuilds often - unlike the Type R engined Atom. Was there anyhting else to say about the Dax....hmmmm , Nah

My point about the Dax Rush with the turbo Hayabusa engine was in response to Los Angeles' comment about a cheaper car (relatively speaking) being quicker than some incredibly expensive machines. Also, when that Dax Rush came out, I don't think that the Atom 300 even existed at the time, though I'm not sure.

Either way, the Dax Rush I was talking about had far more power than the one in the article you included the link to, plus it was lighter. It weighed around 475 kg and had around 380 hp, not 520 kg and 300 hp. Also, engine rebuilds aren't the issue discussed here.

Miguel

[dxb335d]

You can make a fookin kebab go fast. Its light... stick it in a cannon!

[Chris71]

It's hard to immagine driving anything quicker than the standard VTEC car - they're still furiously quick even straight out of the donor Honda.

Utterly mad. Brilliant, but mad.

[OSGA]

There is already a 2.8l V8 Atom with around 400hp
http://www.dpcars.net/

[OSGA]

On the http://www.dpcars.net/ also have a look at the DP prototype same 2.8L V8 (twin Hayabusa tops ends with custom block) 4WD 375hp in a car that weighs 400kg. now that could be fun

[rhinochopig]

Miguel said:

jon b16 said:

Miguel said:

Los Angeles said:

Miguel said:

When I'm driving my MX5 and ...I simply don't get this 500 hp Atom. To me, it looks like an exercise in chasing numbers. Don't get me wrong: I can appreciate the sheer insanity of it, Miguel

I couldn't agree with you more about both cars. But what I like about the V8 Atom is how it shames the VW Veyron Viagra - to knowt it will outgun a car someone has paid a fortune to own is very amusing. It makes you wonder about the sanity of Piech aiming to build the fastest luxury barge on the planet and not acknowledging some car company somewhere will out-do it within a few months.

Well, there was a Dax Rush several years ago with a turbocharged Hayabusa engine by Holeshot of England putting out 380 hp or so. Its power to weight ratio was said to be around 800hp/ton. It may not have been cheap, but it was a bargain compared to this Atom or the similarly engined Hayabusa. IIRC the owner of Holeshot was quoted in the article as saying that his most powerful Hayabusa engines can only be fully used and appreciated on four wheels, so he was buying a Rush. At certain speeds, that Dax might give a Veyron a scare.

Miguel

Edited 'cause I signed twice.

Edited by Miguel on Sunday 2nd March 05:56

Not faster than the atom 300, http://www.evo.co.uk/carreviews/cargrouptests/2047...
will need engine rebuilds often - unlike the Type R engined Atom. Was there anyhting else to say about the Dax....hmmmm , Nah

My point about the Dax Rush with the turbo Hayabusa engine was in response to Los Angeles' comment about a cheaper car (relatively speaking) being quicker than some incredibly expensive machines. Also, when that Dax Rush came out, I don't think that the Atom 300 even existed at the time, though I'm not sure.

Either way, the Dax Rush I was talking about had far more power than the one in the article you included the link to, plus it was lighter. It weighed around 475 kg and had around 380 hp, not 520 kg and 300 hp. Also, engine rebuilds aren't the issue discussed here.

Miguel

Jack at Holeshot has built a 700bhp busa engine. One is currently (well was a couple of years ago) in a westy used for drag racing. He's also planning to fit the same engine (may well habe done now) into his UK land speed record bike. The turbo is almost the same size as the westy's front wheel.

I suspect the westy would have been circa 450kg.

He's also done a couple of engines for Z Cars twin engined four wheel drive ultima that also has 1000bhp/t 1000kg and 1000bhp (2 x 500bhp busa engines).

[Miguel]

rhinochopig said:

Miguel said:

jon b16 said:

Miguel said:

Los Angeles said:

Miguel said:

When I'm driving my MX5 and ...I simply don't get this 500 hp Atom. To me, it looks like an exercise in chasing numbers. Don't get me wrong: I can appreciate the sheer insanity of it, Miguel

I couldn't agree with you more about both cars. But what I like about the V8 Atom is how it shames the VW Veyron Viagra - to knowt it will outgun a car someone has paid a fortune to own is very amusing. It makes you wonder about the sanity of Piech aiming to build the fastest luxury barge on the planet and not acknowledging some car company somewhere will out-do it within a few months.

Well, there was a Dax Rush several years ago with a turbocharged Hayabusa engine by Holeshot of England putting out 380 hp or so. Its power to weight ratio was said to be around 800hp/ton. It may not have been cheap, but it was a bargain compared to this Atom or the similarly engined Hayabusa. IIRC the owner of Holeshot was quoted in the article as saying that his most powerful Hayabusa engines can only be fully used and appreciated on four wheels, so he was buying a Rush. At certain speeds, that Dax might give a Veyron a scare.

Miguel

Edited 'cause I signed twice.

Edited by Miguel on Sunday 2nd March 05:56

Not faster than the atom 300, http://www.evo.co.uk/carreviews/cargrouptests/2047...
will need engine rebuilds often - unlike the Type R engined Atom. Was there anyhting else to say about the Dax....hmmmm , Nah

My point about the Dax Rush with the turbo Hayabusa engine was in response to Los Angeles' comment about a cheaper car (relatively speaking) being quicker than some incredibly expensive machines. Also, when that Dax Rush came out, I don't think that the Atom 300 even existed at the time, though I'm not sure.

Either way, the Dax Rush I was talking about had far more power than the one in the article you included the link to, plus it was lighter. It weighed around 475 kg and had around 380 hp, not 520 kg and 300 hp. Also, engine rebuilds aren't the issue discussed here.

Miguel

Jack at Holeshot has built a 700bhp busa engine. One is currently (well was a couple of years ago) in a westy used for drag racing. He's also planning to fit the same engine (may well habe done now) into his UK land speed record bike. The turbo is almost the same size as the westy's front wheel.

I suspect the westy would have been circa 450kg.

He's also done a couple of engines for Z Cars twin engined four wheel drive ultima that also has 1000bhp/t 1000kg and 1000bhp (2 x 500bhp busa engines).

Thanks for the info. As for the weight of the car, you may be right. I do remember that it had 380 hp. I also remember that Jack (I didn't remember his name) said that he'll turbocharge a Hayabusa engine up to 340 hp with stock internals, but above that, he has to swap them for stronger parts. The one in the article had 380 hp. I also remember that the power to weight was at least 800 hp/ton. It may have been more, but I do remember it was in the 800's. At any rate, those bike engine are positively mental.

Miguel

[Miguel]

otolith said:

Miguel said:

But what you're trying to show is that the friction is independent of the mass or weight of the car.

No, not at all.

What I'm demonstrating is simply that although a heavier car generates more traction (because Fmax=μR )it needs more traction to achieve the same acceleration (because F = ma) and so greater mass confers no accelerative advantage.

Doubling the mass doubles the lateral force you can apply through the tyres, but it also doubles the amount of lateral force you need to apply.

Sorry, my mistake. Since you showed the mass canceling out, that's where I thought you were going. At any rate, what you said above is true, but my point was that, depending on how you configure the car (engine placement, transmission, etc.), you can have a weight bias toward the rear, giving you more traction, while keeping roughly the same weight.

The advantage is obvious. You have more traction, and thus initial acceleration, as well as acceleration when cornering, or under other adverse conditions, while adding no more weight to compromise your acceleration because the extra weight providing more traction is over your driving wheels, whereas your total weight is the same.

Miguel

[peter pan]

Not really fair to compare the development periods of the Lotus Seven/Caterham and Ariel. The Seven was introduced when not many people even had a television, let alone the computor aided design techniques available for the design of the Atom. The fact that the Seven was so good right out of the box all those years ago, speaks volumes for its design. They banned it from racing because it kept on beating everything!
Given its `age' a Seven is still able to beat so many `modern' cars is also quite interesting. The Evo test track figures are a case in point, they use a seven crossing the finish line as the yardstick, then show the where many of the other high performance cars they have tested are at that point BACK down the track.

[BigBen]

Los Angeles said:

When you have designed something so basic, minimal, and clever as the Ariel atom what do you do to keep the model fresh? Offer a second version with a V8 under its ... erm, over its rear end. But does that not defeat the purity of the original concept and design - more weight? And once sales fall back again, then what - a windscreen side panels, and glass bubble roof?

Ariel won't make more than a handfull of the V8 model but will get a disproportionate amount of publicity through doing so. I suspect this is the main motivation behind the model. You can already specify side panels and small bubble screens although not a roof.

Ben