The Best ///M/Barge/General Rant/Look at this/O/T(Vol XVIII)
Discussion
TheRocket said:
Cheers Braddo, let me know your next track day, may try and tag along
Ferris I hear ya. Reality is after too many hours researching, if you want a relatively modern analogue 'sports car' that will do a bit of everything, has a proper drivetrain in the £20-25k bracket and one that hopefully won't ruin your finances the choices are limited, not to say I don't like them because I do, so if you can't beat em join em I say !
This is all spookily timely and on point. Current lady friend is actually encouraging my enthusiasm for cars and forced me to shortlist some options. At this point I've narrowed it to:Ferris I hear ya. Reality is after too many hours researching, if you want a relatively modern analogue 'sports car' that will do a bit of everything, has a proper drivetrain in the £20-25k bracket and one that hopefully won't ruin your finances the choices are limited, not to say I don't like them because I do, so if you can't beat em join em I say !
- 986 (preferably an early 2.7 or 3.2)
- 987 (preferably an Gen2)
- 996 (preferably an early C2)
- Elise (preferably K20a'd and/or supercharged)
- Evora (preferably supercharged as I already have an NA 2GRFE!)
- Exige (preferably V6 S)
ker tax" that comes with having a car perceived to be ostentatious - I'm not interested in a car as an aspirational object, nor as some badge of wealth / achievement , just purely as an effective and enjoyable driving tool that combines tactile satisfaction with enough usability / reliability to avoid being a complete ballache).I am still really tempted by the Evora though. Logically it's on shakier ground given the higher price of entry and a likely more extensive list of niggles (general borkitude aside - how are the primary controls other than steering? Ergonomics? Longevity?)) relative to a non-chocolate-donked Porsche, but it is a hand built sport scar with an enticing mix of attributes, even if it arguably lacks some of the investment bestowed upon the pork [I'm thinking of the points made in the Evora 400 thread, rightly pointing out the sheer depth of resources available to Porsche, evident in its ability to volume produce decent driver's cars to a relatively high (priced) standard].
Shame I don't have the required folding yet! More sums to do...
anonymous said:
[redacted]
.D00d. Still waiting...
Got my clarification of the impenetrable court order - judge waived fee for adding the bogus company that the dealer is insisting I should be claiming against and agreed the court would reissue the claim to both the dealer tw*t and the bogus company as first and second defendants, after I had resubmitted my particulars referring to both parties instead of just dealer tw*t. So a few hours of urgent work later I complied (effectively had 24 hours as each order was giving me 7 days from its date, posted 2 days after it was given by second class post...
). Latest is that dealer tw*t wrote to the court on 5th December insisting he wasn't the right defendant, only the [bogus!] company). Still waiting for the judge to respond. Could be the judge calls a hearing; could be he / she gives another instruction / order / decision. Who knows. It's been 7 months since the car arrived and it's spent pretty much all that time sat outside my house bills (insurance / tax / MOT), throwing. Arrrrrrgh.
1. 986 (preferably an early 2.7 or 3.2)
2. 987 (preferably an Gen2)
3. 996 (preferably an early C2)
4. Elise (preferably K20a'd and/or supercharged)
5. Evora (preferably supercharged as I already have an NA 2GRFE!)
6. Exige (preferably V6 S)
Your budget is all over the show much like mine was to start ! Also sounds a very similar list so here with my 10 pence worth :
1. and 2. you know as well, if not better than me, but if you get budget creep then you are a better man than me to buy at the bottom end of it !
3. A tricky one, I procrastinated long and hard on 996’s but ultimately and perhaps unfairly ruled them out for a number of reasons not least of all because they are 15 year old car and I'd like to do the odd track day which would mean modding a car that probably should be left untouched. Running costs in theory will be higher imo, but future classic status and values heading north may negate that if you can find a good one.
4. Without wishing to bore everyone again they are amazing bang per buck but very focused, if you can live with that do it, if you buy, buy carefully, big variation in quality of builds.
5. Now if your budget will allow, it gets really interesting I think, not driven an Evora but if I’d had £35k to spend it would have definitely been on the short list to have a go, however I would also be looking at this Lotus http://www.hofmanns.co.uk/car-sales/lotus-elise-s-... a) because I think they are really true to Lotus core values and more usable than my Elise if not quite as much of an event or as quick b) because it’s almost a new car with warranty etc. so running costs should be sensible ?
6. Ultimately the V6 Exige is the car I’d like to own but was out of my budget at high £30/low £40k’s for a 3 year old car, but for sure if I could have done I would. However at this level you also bring in Cayman R’s/987 Spyder which whilst I don’t think the difference is huge compared to Cayster Gen 2 ‘S’ they are relatively rare and look like a safe place to put you cash and low miles car might even go up ?
2. 987 (preferably an Gen2)
3. 996 (preferably an early C2)
4. Elise (preferably K20a'd and/or supercharged)
5. Evora (preferably supercharged as I already have an NA 2GRFE!)
6. Exige (preferably V6 S)
Your budget is all over the show much like mine was to start ! Also sounds a very similar list so here with my 10 pence worth :
1. and 2. you know as well, if not better than me, but if you get budget creep then you are a better man than me to buy at the bottom end of it !
3. A tricky one, I procrastinated long and hard on 996’s but ultimately and perhaps unfairly ruled them out for a number of reasons not least of all because they are 15 year old car and I'd like to do the odd track day which would mean modding a car that probably should be left untouched. Running costs in theory will be higher imo, but future classic status and values heading north may negate that if you can find a good one.
4. Without wishing to bore everyone again they are amazing bang per buck but very focused, if you can live with that do it, if you buy, buy carefully, big variation in quality of builds.
5. Now if your budget will allow, it gets really interesting I think, not driven an Evora but if I’d had £35k to spend it would have definitely been on the short list to have a go, however I would also be looking at this Lotus http://www.hofmanns.co.uk/car-sales/lotus-elise-s-... a) because I think they are really true to Lotus core values and more usable than my Elise if not quite as much of an event or as quick b) because it’s almost a new car with warranty etc. so running costs should be sensible ?
6. Ultimately the V6 Exige is the car I’d like to own but was out of my budget at high £30/low £40k’s for a 3 year old car, but for sure if I could have done I would. However at this level you also bring in Cayman R’s/987 Spyder which whilst I don’t think the difference is huge compared to Cayster Gen 2 ‘S’ they are relatively rare and look like a safe place to put you cash and low miles car might even go up ?
TheRocket said:
Your budget is all over the show much like mine was to start !
Quite! All part of the problem of having broad-ish tastes (butterfly brain) aside from the central brief of a usable 2+ seat sporting car with dynamic pedigree that offers an involving drive for mainly road duties
If I’m honest I’m always comfortable with spending less, if only because (i) it leaves more contingency for running costs; and (ii) there are other commitments to meet in life (aside from class As and hookers 
). But yeah, a budget spread of “modest” to “I’m blushing!” (~£5k to £35k) is not helping. Settling in the middle of that range mainly leaves tired / leggy examples of the 996 and the 987 Cayman that I’d rather avoid…TheRocket said:
Also sounds a very similar list so here with my 10 pence worth :
1. and 2. you know as well, if not better than me, but if you get budget creep then you are a better man than me to buy at the bottom end of it !
Yep. I still really like the 986 platform for the virtues previously extoled (great bit of driving kit out of the box (arf), with sweet chassis / handling / ride and great primary control feel / weighting / interaction; a ludicrously bargainous entry price for a broad choice of examples). I’d much prefer a coupe, hence the 987 option, although that doubles or potentially quadruples the original outlay, particularly if we’re talking Cayman (likely as not a vert man) versus 986 box. Cmoose’s Gen 1 S drove very sweetly when I tried it, despite the obviously more refined and saloon like coating that Porsche seems to have dipped it in as compared with the more conspicuously “sporting” feel of the 986 (the latter seeming to have slightly heavier steering, firmer brake pedal, more obvious F6 mid-engined-ness)…1. and 2. you know as well, if not better than me, but if you get budget creep then you are a better man than me to buy at the bottom end of it !
The issue I foresee with the 986 is they are all older cars and thus finding a good one takes time and some investment post purchase (fine in principle, applies to most 2nd hand cars), but also even after that it might not feel “enough” – not in some misguided “it’s-not-a-911” sense, but just a general fewer compromises (canvas roof) / more performance (I have ~250bhp/ton at present) sense.
A 987 Cayman (non-borkable please) makes sense, if raising the stakes in terms of price of entry / fewer cars to choose from (and the any perceived sanitisation relative to older models – cmoose has mentioned this on many occasions and I get the gist).
TheRocket said:
3. A tricky one, I procrastinated long and hard on 996’s but ultimately and perhaps unfairly ruled them out for a number of reasons not least of all because they are 15 year old car and I'd like to do the odd track day which would mean modding a car that probably should be left untouched. Running costs in theory will be higher imo, but future classic status and values heading north may negate that if you can find a good one.
Again, I hear ya bud. Realistically you’d be spending the same or more for a similar sort of experience to the 986 / 987 situation. I also see the 996 as intersecting with the Evora rather than a Boxster in terms of both intended competitor and my own needs and expectations (i.e. potential only car with occasional space for more than one scared passenger, capable of doing routine stuff as well as B-road shenanigans). Expensive enough that I’d not really want to mod it heavily and I’d also potentially think twice about where to park it (less so with an older car but still…). I do like the 996 platform though – drives beautifully and makes even mundane trundling an enjoyable affair. Semi-ubiquity actually enhances the overall appeal / usability for me too. Poppopbangbang’s thread keeps me turned on to the potential of a 996 as a do-everything-keeper, although I’ll admit to mild wallet-quiver at the prospect… Realistically one for when I get that next promotion but still tempting, if annoyingly taxiing as compared to the similar 986 option.
TheRocket said:
4. Without wishing to bore everyone again they are amazing bang per buck but very focused, if you can live with that do it, if you buy, buy carefully, big variation in quality of builds.
I defer to your experience, having never driven or owned one. Yours remains gorgeous and tempting, if likely more car than I can handle, fiscally or otherwise! I think I could deal with the focus as I’d keep a hatch / saloon of some sort for crawling and sprawling with any Elise / Exige-type car and I love the bang per buck “move over supercars / bikes” package. Converted cars don’t come up often and do indeed vary a lot in spec. I’d likely aim to “ease in” with an NA K20a and see how I did (more likely to find one for sub £30k too!). Flies in the ointment include my preference for multi-cylindered (6+) cars (lovely though the K20a is - one of the best NA 4 cylinder engines I’ve encountered) and a desire for road-trip ability, which might be harder to convince passenger’s of in an S1 Helise / Hexige, heh.TheRocket said:
5. Now if your budget will allow, it gets really interesting I think, not driven an Evora but if I’d had £35k to spend it would have definitely been on the short list to have a go, however I would also be looking at this Lotus http://www.hofmanns.co.uk/car-sales/lotus-elise-s-... a) because I think they are really true to Lotus core values and more usable than my Elise if not quite as much of an event or as quick b) because it’s almost a new car with warranty etc. so running costs should be sensible ?
Amen. If I’m honest north of £20-25k would involve a considerably more onerous (if not completely untenable) amount of leverage. Cash rich I ain’t! But then I figure this is my best opportunity short of fiscal Armageddon – rates are low and I have no dependents... I love the idea of one and it speaks to me as a concept (independently devised sports car with reliable underpinnings and world-class ride / handling / steering).I really need to drive one I think, possible a late Elise too. My main worry aside price of entry (and some slight concerns around low-volume niggles) is whether I could get most of the experience (and some other benefits) for less in the form of a Cayman S. Mid-engined, RWD, likely nicer gear change / primary controls (legendary Lotus steering aside!), slightly less patchy ergonomics / build (less important to me so long at it remains roadworthy). Cayman also offers a nicer (if slightly more fragile) engine imo, not that I don’t like the 2GR-FE (it’s a perfectly effective and nice to use lump, considering it’s really a truck engine). I feel a comparison coming on.
However, again, more likely when my numbers come up – even if I could persuade some hapless financier to underwrite the purchase, I’ve not yet made the mental leap to buying a car for the sort of money that I’d likely never be able to lay my hands on outright. Call it fear of injury / PH anti-finance guilt. I could always live in a caravan though… Can it be overcome? Time will tell but no risk, no reward
TheRocket said:
6. Ultimately the V6 Exige is the car I’d like to own but was out of my budget at high £30/low £40k’s for a 3 year old car, but for sure if I could have done I would. However at this level you also bring in Cayman R’s/987 Spyder which whilst I don’t think the difference is huge compared to Cayster Gen 2 ‘S’ they are relatively rare and look like a safe place to put you cash and low miles car might even go up ?
Affirmative. This is where logic and deductive reasoning is taking me as well. Money no object I’d replace the AW11 with the Exige V6 and keep the slowlo for mundane stuff. But as you say the Exige is still a £40k+ car for the earliest examples and a Spyder / Cayman R would likely be more usable more of the time, as well depreciating less and not trying to herniate you or your wallet on entry / egress (in every sense) A lotto fantasy for now then (see Evora and, to a lesser extent, 996 entries). Unless lady friend (or anyone else) decides to gift me one (unlikely). Of course, all of this somewhat hinges on me getting a satisfactory outcome on my outstanding impulse-buy-saga!
Edited by Diesel Meister on Monday 9th January 17:59
Since I last posted on this thread, I have lusted after and seriously considered buying the following:
- early 996 C2 in silver with ambers
- Aston V12 Vantage manual
- E28 M5 (but can't find one)
- Range Rover L322
- new McLaren P14
- new Aston V12 Vantage S manual after watching Chris Harris video
- remembered tax return due
- BMW Z4M coupe
cars... it's an addiction
- early 996 C2 in silver with ambers
- Aston V12 Vantage manual
- E28 M5 (but can't find one)
- Range Rover L322
- new McLaren P14
- new Aston V12 Vantage S manual after watching Chris Harris video
- remembered tax return due
- BMW Z4M coupe
cars... it's an addiction
barchetta_boy said:
A guy at my local pub turned up in a beautiful Brewster Green Turbo R and I got chatting to him "as you do". He says he's got another one which he's going to sell for £4k.
What could possibly go wrong?
I expect it would make further investment in your 124 estate look like really good value. What could possibly go wrong?
barchetta_boy said:
Since I last posted on this thread, I have lusted after and seriously considered buying the following:
- early 996 C2 in silver with ambers
- Aston V12 Vantage manual
- E28 M5 (but can't find one)
- Range Rover L322
- new McLaren P14
- new Aston V12 Vantage S manual after watching Chris Harris video
- remembered tax return due
- BMW Z4M coupe
cars... it's an addiction
aint it just.- early 996 C2 in silver with ambers
- Aston V12 Vantage manual
- E28 M5 (but can't find one)
- Range Rover L322
- new McLaren P14
- new Aston V12 Vantage S manual after watching Chris Harris video
- remembered tax return due
- BMW Z4M coupe
cars... it's an addiction
i'm with you on the l322 having now driven the 4.2 supercharged i was interested in. loved it and want one, just not that one! lets just say it photographed well..... i am now suffering budget creep which is bringing the 5.0 hse into play. newer and only 20bhp down on the sc with less to go wrong.
thing is, i also keep looking at jag xkr's of a similar vintage and wondering whether i really need a 4x4.
also should i buy a pukka gt86 cup car with a knackered engine for peanuts even though the clio needs a sadev rebuild?
Output Flange said:
How much should the Walkers car be?
I have a feeling the one with no pics will be the modified red one (again) that keeps not selling.
Have seen the E24s stabilize around £25 to £30k for most cars... The E28 is rarer, perhaps better as a car, but a bit more awkward looking, so £35k is strong money. Walkers have good rep - a really good friend bought his E46 M3 from them and the car has been spot on so far - but I think even they would struggle to achieve the price. I have a feeling the one with no pics will be the modified red one (again) that keeps not selling.
Incidentally, I went to look at an early 928 5-spd at Pie Performance in Essex. First time I have been there. Interesting place - could be a mecca for the threadists who like their Pork seasoned. Lots of early 911, including pre-impact cars, race cars, race 930s, some tasty 944Ts, 928s, GT3s and GT3 Cup cars. Next to their premises was another garage which specialized in M5s - the place was awash with E28 M5s and E34 M5s. Wish I asked for the name of the garage...
Overall the market seems a bit confused. East Anglia Car Auctions have an excellent, 98k miles Midnight Blue/Black carpets/Caramel seats 1995 928GTS Manuel coming up for sale on the 28th Jan. If it makes more than £50k we are good, if it doesn't - brace yourself...
Cheburator mk2 said:
Incidentally, I went to look at an early 928 5-spd at Pie Performance in Essex. First time I have been there. Interesting place - could be a mecca for the threadists who like their Pork seasoned. Lots of early 911, including pre-impact cars, race cars, race 930s, some tasty 944Ts, 928s, GT3s and GT3 Cup cars. Next to their premises was another garage which specialized in M5s - the place was awash with E28 M5s and E34 M5s. Wish I asked for the name of the garage...
Sounds wonderful, if slightly worrying for the wallet!Cheburator mk2 said:
Overall the market seems a bit confused. East Anglia Car Auctions have an excellent, 98k miles Midnight Blue/Black carpets/Caramel seats 1995 928GTS Manuel coming up for sale on the 28th Jan. If it makes more than £50k we are good, if it doesn't - brace yourself...
Are you alluding to a "correction" in the market? I'd agree that there seems to be a bit of unevenness to go with the general hysteria / high asking prices for anything remotely retro / interesting. Some things seem under-priced, albeit only by comparison to some of the silly money examples of interesting cars. I'm no expert but from my perspective most interesting things have moved a long way out of reach, even allowing for the fact I'd not have been capable to own them from new! 986s seem to still be low but 987s have been nudging up, as have decent 996s. Non-pork, I was considering an E34 M5 back in 2007, when £10k would have got you a decent starting point (albeit for a car that is notoriously expensive to run even if it's fundamentally straight). A year later and prices crashed, only to rise continuously from around 2009 (presumably as numbers on the market / in existence dwindled). My virtual garage of 70s-90s Deutsche metal (including an E28 M5, at least one E34, an M1, an E24 M635, numerous 911s / E30s / Alpinas etc.) would have made about a 350% (average) return on investment by now I think we have to allow for the fact that the 2007-2012 dip was a reflection of market forces ratehr than inherent value. In hindsight (natch), it was a cruel trick as I didn't have the cash to take advantage!
Edited by Diesel Meister on Tuesday 10th January 13:06
barchetta_boy said:
Bloody hell mate next time you plan a trip to somewhere like that, let me know!
I had no idea about the content of this Alladin's cave. Before I left I spoke to Steptoe and he told me they were "allright". It was only once I had actually feasted my eyes on a 997.1 Cup, a Slate Grey 928GT with the wider optional arches, a 930, a Kremer-ed 930 track car, a 2.4S and 914-6 that I realized that the place is a bit special. Once I was shown the service area, where a mint 1979 Indisch Rot 928 was being worked on, alongside a 996 GT3, a 993 RSL and a 944T I realized they were a bit more than "allright"...Shame their 928 required too much work at £8.5k to make it a viable starting point for my little project. Thinking of pulling the trigger on SL's backdated 86.5, but then Steptoe said that the Green Peril can be bought for a reasonable amount of cash. Just thinking of these heated Porsche sports seats trimmed with Black Pascha inserts....
Cheburator mk2 said:
Overall the market seems a bit confused. East Anglia Car Auctions have an excellent, 98k miles Midnight Blue/Black carpets/Caramel seats 1995 928GTS Manuel coming up for sale on the 28th Jan. If it makes more than £50k we are good, if it doesn't - brace yourself...
Are you alluding to a "correction" in the market? Edited by Diesel Meister on Tuesday 10th January 13:06
anonymous said:
[redacted]
the clue is in my post - the 928GTS 5-spd is the equivalent of a 965 3.6 When the 928 is predicted to be the next thing to move, we are talking a 928S4 Auto going from £15k to £25k, not hitting £100k. The rare 928s have already seen explosive growth - Derek Bell's 1987 928 Club Sport Prototype sold for £220k in October 2016. I could have bought that very car for £22k in August 2004. An OK 1993 Italian GTS 5-spd with 40k miles sold for £100k at Bonahm's in 2016. Lastly, in the collectors world, often it is not about swapping, but adding.Cheburator mk2 said:
Next to their premises was another garage which specialized in M5s - the place was awash with E28 M5s and E34 M5s. Wish I asked for the name of the garage...
Previous owner of my old 3.8 E34 had an engine rebuild done by a place in Essex, but I can't remember the name of it. May be the same garage, and if so they did a good jobGassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff