Why switch DSC/ESP off on public roads?

[Finlandia]

Special K said:

I think this should be made compulsory

I think so too, but then others say that it only would make drivers overly confident and more risk prone. If so, then why make cars safer?

[300bhp/ton]

Zwoelf said:

300bhp/ton said:

What if in your scenario you only needed to be a 50% to be flung off the road. Neither car would be better than the other.

Wrong. If so, then yes both would have an accident. The accidents would be different in severity, one mitigated to some extent by the greater margin for error left by driver A. That is the margin to which Ari I believe was referring, which some seem to prefer to interpret in simplistic and unrealistic binary terms, I hope for the sake of perpetuating an internet discussion rather than demonstrating a real lack of comprehension.

If life has taught me one thing to date, it's that it is full of what ifs and all the consequences that go with them.

I don't deny what ifs exist. But your scenario is highly biased..... and not really representative. Make it realistic and unbiased then try a sensible comparison.

[Special K]

Finlandia said:

Special K said:

I think this should be made compulsory

I think so too, but then others say that it only would make drivers overly confident and more risk prone. If so, then why make cars safer?

Newer safer cars give a false sense of security I think, hence this whole discussion about switching off driver aids. When I learnt to drive this would have been about if you drive like a tt or not

[roachcoach]

Zwoelf said:

300bhp/ton said:

What if in your scenario you only needed to be a 50% to be flung off the road. Neither car would be better than the other.

Wrong. If so, then yes both would have an accident. The accidents would be different in severity, one mitigated to some extent by the greater margin for error left by driver A. That is the margin to which Ari I believe was referring, which some seem to prefer to interpret in simplistic and unrealistic binary terms, I hope for the sake of perpetuating an internet discussion rather than demonstrating a real lack of comprehension.

If life has taught me one thing to date, it's that it is full of what ifs and all the consequences that go with them.

[Devils advoate]No guarantee whatsoever, the person with ESP off pissing around may be going much slower than the driver with it on and simply taking an angle that will take the grip limits to the edge - quite possibly at a much lower speed that the other driver. I have a roundabout on my way to work I can slide the rear out at 20-25mph if I put my mind to the task. Equally, if I take a proper line, I can breach 35mph with no slippage and no understeer. Add the diesel and I'd rather being doing the slower speed[/devils advocate]


I agree with your last line completely though, everything is a risk - you simply balance the probabilities of event x with action y (to oversimplify).

[Finlandia]

Special K said:

Newer safer cars give a false sense of security I think, hence this whole discussion about switching off driver aids. When I learnt to drive this would have been about if you drive like a tt or not

Precisely, and so round we go again

[Toltec]

300bhp/ton said:

Zwoelf said:

300bhp/ton said:

You said: "if you leave a margin for error you'll never trouble your ESP"

My response is: unless you can predict the future or are clairvoyant any speed above 10mph does not leave you a margin for error.

I think what Ari is getting at about the margin for error and the limit of adhesion is as follows with two drivers of equal driving ability:

There is a roundabout, some diesel has been spilled, driver A encounters it at say at 70% of the vehicle's max lateral G when the surface grip co-efficient changes significantly and unexpectedly, driver B encounters the same circumstances a few minutes later right at the 100% mark of available traction up to that point.

Which driver has the accident/browner trousers do we think? Who's the more responsible?

too many what if's.....


What if in your scenario you only needed to be a 50% to be flung off the road. Neither car would be better than the other.

I also think Zwoelf has the drivers the wrong way around, given that chat coming out of some of my younger co-workers driving on the esp/dsc is a normal event.

On the cars I have with esp/dsc it usually stays on, except for the BMW in town when it is wet, the TC can make getting out of junctions less safe by killing power at the faintest hint of wheel spin.

[Blue Oval84]

Toltec said:

On the cars I have with esp/dsc it usually stays on, except for the BMW in town when it is wet, the TC can make getting out of junctions less safe by killing power at the faintest hint of wheel spin.

Quite surprised at that, I've always found the BMW system to be pretty good, although yes, with hindsight, pulling out of a gravelled side road onto a main road did cause some flickering the other week!

[Toltec]

Blue Oval84 said:

Toltec said:

On the cars I have with esp/dsc it usually stays on, except for the BMW in town when it is wet, the TC can make getting out of junctions less safe by killing power at the faintest hint of wheel spin.

Quite surprised at that, I've always found the BMW system to be pretty good, although yes, with hindsight, pulling out of a gravelled side road onto a main road did cause some flickering the other week!

E46 325 ti auto, if it makes any odds. It did seem to improve a little after a BMW software update, however the whole system is oversensitive. Unlike the one on my Smart which will allow a little wheel spin and over steer before cutting in. In fact providing you do not mash the throttle down the Smart TC seems to allow just that small amount of wheel spin that gives you maximum acceleration. Try that in the BMW and it feels like the engine has died.

Maybe I am just spoilt by the way an Impreza can put power down in the wet without needing any electronics at all.

[Mr Whippy]

Toltec said:

Blue Oval84 said:

Toltec said:

On the cars I have with esp/dsc it usually stays on, except for the BMW in town when it is wet, the TC can make getting out of junctions less safe by killing power at the faintest hint of wheel spin.

Quite surprised at that, I've always found the BMW system to be pretty good, although yes, with hindsight, pulling out of a gravelled side road onto a main road did cause some flickering the other week!

E46 325 ti auto, if it makes any odds. It did seem to improve a little after a BMW software update, however the whole system is oversensitive. Unlike the one on my Smart which will allow a little wheel spin and over steer before cutting in. In fact providing you do not mash the throttle down the Smart TC seems to allow just that small amount of wheel spin that gives you maximum acceleration. Try that in the BMW and it feels like the engine has died.

Maybe I am just spoilt by the way an Impreza can put power down in the wet without needing any electronics at all.

Problem I've noted with the BMW ones is that despite having loads of traction at maybe 0.1:1 slip ratios, because they kick in at about 0.01:1 slip ratio, and defend that limit with stupid levels of safety, you actually get about 1/10th power for about 2s after breaching that point of not very much slip at all

Thankfully in the Z4 you can run DTC which kinda works half like a braking TCS diff thing, which is much much better in all conditions.

I don't get why some systems are tuned sooooo heavily for safety to the point they become questionable for safety by being dodgy in the above situations by cutting power for a relatively long period!

Dave

[Toltec]

Slip ratio - knew there was a correct term but could not digit out of my aging brain this morning.