RE: Dual-clutch Clio RS: the defence
Discussion
Mr2Mike said:
At that point I'd realise I'd really buggered up the corner by entering it in the wrong gear.
Isn't that the point? With a manual you select gear according to old, now outdated criteria. Now technology allows you to instantly select the gear for when you and the rev limiter decree. No more beginning a manoeuvre in the wrong gear to end up in the right gear and vice versa, just the right gear at all times. And car (road cars especially) do not fly off the road by changing gear mid-bend unless you're doing something spectacularly wrong. We'll also be able to make progress without being de-clutched for far too long. No more standing starts with the nose of the car pitching up and down. No more just-as-you-get-going it's time to de-clutch, get going again and it's time to de-clutch again, and so on. Much faster progress can now be made with minimal effort. The same progress could have been made before, but only with a degree of effort that was rather uncool.
Mr2Mike said:
nickfrog said:
So what do you do when you're about to hit the limiter mid-bend:
At that point I'd realise I'd really buggered up the corner by entering it in the wrong gear.Edited by nickfrog on Thursday 7th February 21:55
heebeegeetee said:
Isn't that the point? With a manual you select gear according to old, now outdated criteria. Now technology allows you to instantly select the gear for when you and the rev limiter decree.
Powerful motor launches that are fast and easy to pilot are readily available, so why do people keep buying the old wind powered yachts that require significant levels of manual input to operate correctly? 
There is a curve which links a motorway and dual carriageway near me which I recently went around at a rate of knots (nothing illegal mind, but it was raining and very wet) in a new car with a flappy paddle autobox.
I just kept the throttle at the required level to stay at a comfy speed for the corner and without even considering the apex or balance of the car just bipped back up through the gears with my fingers.
On the way around it actually got me thinking that in my old mk2 MX5 I used to go into that curve thinking about stuff like only braking in a straight line, maybe doing a little heel/toe downshift from 5th to 4th or hell, maybe even 3rd under braking then holding a certain speed/rpm around the curve and not lifting or pressing the clutch at the wrong moment for fear of unsettling the car and getting into a big slide, before coming to the apex and booting it again and dancing on the two outermost pedals back up the gears.
The car I was in was newer, WAY more powerful and has a ludicrous amount of grip - it was definitely faster and if you were thinking about it and going for it would be EVEN faster. Wasn't really what you'd call fun though, where as doing that corner in the MX5 used to be cackle-inducing fun.
It's sad that the 'art' of driving a manual (because that's exactly what it is: an art) is lost on so many people.
I just kept the throttle at the required level to stay at a comfy speed for the corner and without even considering the apex or balance of the car just bipped back up through the gears with my fingers.
On the way around it actually got me thinking that in my old mk2 MX5 I used to go into that curve thinking about stuff like only braking in a straight line, maybe doing a little heel/toe downshift from 5th to 4th or hell, maybe even 3rd under braking then holding a certain speed/rpm around the curve and not lifting or pressing the clutch at the wrong moment for fear of unsettling the car and getting into a big slide, before coming to the apex and booting it again and dancing on the two outermost pedals back up the gears.
The car I was in was newer, WAY more powerful and has a ludicrous amount of grip - it was definitely faster and if you were thinking about it and going for it would be EVEN faster. Wasn't really what you'd call fun though, where as doing that corner in the MX5 used to be cackle-inducing fun.
It's sad that the 'art' of driving a manual (because that's exactly what it is: an art) is lost on so many people.
Gary C said:
BS75 said:
It's sad that the 'art' of driving a manual (because that's exactly what it is: an art) is lost on so many people.
Too true.
t. It's describing the driving of a car that is easy to drive, on the public road. The idea that a dip of a pedal at the wrong time would send the car into a big slide, is utter bullst.We're not talking chain-gang Fraser Nash here, or a 911 on a rally stage. I recognise that modern cars have too much grip and that MX5s are fun, but come on, let's not over-state things here.
heebeegeetee said:
Gary C said:
BS75 said:
It's sad that the 'art' of driving a manual (because that's exactly what it is: an art) is lost on so many people.
Too true.t. It's describing the driving of a car that is easy to drive, on the public road. The idea that a dip of a pedal at the wrong time would send the car into a big slide, is utter bullst.We're not talking chain-gang Fraser Nash here, or a 911 on a rally stage. I recognise that modern cars have too much grip and that MX5s are fun, but come on, let's not over-state things here.
heebeegeetee said:
Gary C said:
BS75 said:
It's sad that the 'art' of driving a manual (because that's exactly what it is: an art) is lost on so many people.
Too true.t. It's describing the driving of a car that is easy to drive, on the public road. The idea that a dip of a pedal at the wrong time would send the car into a big slide, is utter bullst.We're not talking chain-gang Fraser Nash here, or a 911 on a rally stage. I recognise that modern cars have too much grip and that MX5s are fun, but come on, let's not over-state things here.
However,
Can't you see that part of the fun is that you CAN get it wrong? It's not 'better' as such, but you can get satisfaction from getting it right.
I take it you would be in favour of a CVT if they could get them working more efficiently than a DSG ?
interloper said:
I agree with BS75, its not BS at all, you can have involvement and maybe the odd butt clench at lower speeds and have more fun generally in an older manual car. Its not macho, its probably not clever but I do think that the more refined and clever cars get, the less fun they are and the less I want to drive them!
I don't disagree, it's just that i think we all already are driving modern cars, I think you've got to go way back for them to be genuinely involving, like back to 1955 or so.Pretty much anything post 1990 is already largely computer controlled, and I don't think having a stick sprouting out of the floor changes that.
heebeegeetee said:
I don't disagree, it's just that i think we all already are driving modern cars, I think you've got to go way back for them to be genuinely involving, like back to 1955 or so.
Pretty much anything post 1990 is already largely computer controlled, and I don't think having a stick sprouting out of the floor changes that.
I've driven cars from the 70s that dated back to the 50s (and even 40s) in design terms. All were fun to drive. I've had an E30 BMW from 1986, and that didn't feel all that much different from a 1970s RWD saloon. I've driven 1990s hatchbacks, which were all quite happy to try and kill you if you abused them. Pretty much anything post 1990 is already largely computer controlled, and I don't think having a stick sprouting out of the floor changes that.
I'd place the date somewhere around 2001 when the way mainstream cars began to be designed started to remove fun.
It's interesting sitting back and following this off topic (but is it) manual v DCT, what's better blah blah.
I've never driven a DCT box but I have a few auto hire cars after the requested manual wasn't delivered. They were ok, nothing more, an auto I would never buy on a car I would never buy... what's to think about.
The thing with a good manual, as others have pointed out, is that added interaction with the car, the machine. Matching the revs, braking spot on, hit that corner you love knowing that more often than not you don't get it quite right but when you do... You feel reward that YOU got it right, grin like an idiot and on to attack the next corner. I get that a DCT box will do it every time, tacking away that human error element, but where is the fun in that. I also get for that reason a lot of drivers like DCT boxes but I can't help thinking they aren't truly into driving.
I sit in traffic jams with a manual and really, how hard can it be (unless medical condition) to manage without an auto.
On the infamous TT Forum there have been same manual v DSG threads. For the DSG the drivers are usually about pure speed. Speed of the change, faster acceleration and very little to do with actual involvement, tactility etc. and I guess that's where it's at for some.
For me DSG is the techno/synth music where the band just stood there, songs were dead, soulless, cold and clinical. The manual, real musos playing drums, guitars, working at it, interacting with their instruments, making it happen themselves.
I should add though, do we totally right off the Clio because it's gone DCT? It'll be interesting to see what the first reviews and group tests reveal. RenaultSport have a habit of surprising proving people wrong. I notice also bemoaning the fact it's gone turbo, it'll be rubbish etc yet, ST's and Meganes are turbo'd and that appears to be ok. There will always be change!
I've never driven a DCT box but I have a few auto hire cars after the requested manual wasn't delivered. They were ok, nothing more, an auto I would never buy on a car I would never buy... what's to think about.
The thing with a good manual, as others have pointed out, is that added interaction with the car, the machine. Matching the revs, braking spot on, hit that corner you love knowing that more often than not you don't get it quite right but when you do... You feel reward that YOU got it right, grin like an idiot and on to attack the next corner. I get that a DCT box will do it every time, tacking away that human error element, but where is the fun in that. I also get for that reason a lot of drivers like DCT boxes but I can't help thinking they aren't truly into driving.
I sit in traffic jams with a manual and really, how hard can it be (unless medical condition) to manage without an auto.
On the infamous TT Forum there have been same manual v DSG threads. For the DSG the drivers are usually about pure speed. Speed of the change, faster acceleration and very little to do with actual involvement, tactility etc. and I guess that's where it's at for some.
For me DSG is the techno/synth music where the band just stood there, songs were dead, soulless, cold and clinical. The manual, real musos playing drums, guitars, working at it, interacting with their instruments, making it happen themselves.
I should add though, do we totally right off the Clio because it's gone DCT? It'll be interesting to see what the first reviews and group tests reveal. RenaultSport have a habit of surprising proving people wrong. I notice also bemoaning the fact it's gone turbo, it'll be rubbish etc yet, ST's and Meganes are turbo'd and that appears to be ok. There will always be change!
Edited by HighwayStar on Sunday 10th February 09:39
Given how crap the gear shift was in my 172 and 182 I'd probably suggest not having it is actually preferable.
I drove a mates TT with a DSG and it was a cracking set up I thought. I won't role out an auto box in the future. For the roads, the majority of the time it makes perfect sense.
I drove a mates TT with a DSG and it was a cracking set up I thought. I won't role out an auto box in the future. For the roads, the majority of the time it makes perfect sense.
heebeegeetee said:
HighwayStar said:
The manual, real musos playing drums, guitars, working at it, interacting with their instruments, making it happen themselves.
In an Audi TT? If you were talking, say, MGB, I'd be with you all the way, but Audi TT?
heebeegeetee said:
In an Audi TT?
If you were talking, say, MGB, I'd be with you all the way, but Audi TT?
MGB !If you were talking, say, MGB, I'd be with you all the way, but Audi TT?
They were s
te when new ! Now an MGA 
Any way, I think all we have resolve here is that some like a manual, and some like to look to the future (which I am not denying it is).
But !
I will not have a car with a dsg, a dct pkd or whatever and will stick to buying manuals thank you very much.
heebeegeetee said:
Gary C said:
BS75 said:
It's sad that the 'art' of driving a manual (because that's exactly what it is: an art) is lost on so many people.
Too true.t. It's describing the driving of a car that is easy to drive, on the public road. The idea that a dip of a pedal at the wrong time would send the car into a big slide, is utter bullst.t and more experience (of the Anglesey infield passing me the wrong way). Admittedly I wasn't driving Fred Flintstone's pre-1955 jalopy (feet were firmly inside the vehicle at all times) but I still found the car rather involving all the same.
Similarly, said MX5 with its 14" tyres was very quick to throw itself into a slide under similar albeit slower conditions on the public road if I was cack-handed with it.
The point is, it was FUN. Semi-autos are not fun. And when a sporty renault really only has fun going for it, I just think fitting a semi-auto to it because the gearchanges are 0.3s faster is a crap trade-off.
BS75 said:
Semi-autos are not fun. And when a sporty renault really only has fun going for it, I just think fitting a semi-auto to it because the gearchanges are 0.3s faster is a crap trade-off.
They can be ALOT of fun in my experience, both on track and on the road and I find them much easier and nicer to live with in traffic and when you aren't in the mood for hooning. Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff