RE: TVR - 'never say never'
Discussion
JonRB said:
Les Edgar founded Bullfrog, and has since moved on to other things. A bit like Elon Musk founded PayPal.
Bullfrog do not have anything to do with this. Saying that TVR is now owned by videogame developers is even more ridiculous than saying TVR was a Russian company when it was owned by an English-educated Russian, but was still building cars designed under Peter Wheeler, in Blackpool, with British workers.
Peter Wheeler was a chemical engineer who made some money out of selling a patent in the oil industry and he seemed to make a good stab at running a car company.Bullfrog do not have anything to do with this. Saying that TVR is now owned by videogame developers is even more ridiculous than saying TVR was a Russian company when it was owned by an English-educated Russian, but was still building cars designed under Peter Wheeler, in Blackpool, with British workers.
The more I hear (over the noise of the teenagers squabbling), the better it sounds. The 6th June was a very nice touch.
Esseesse said:
So are we just going to get a computer game with TVR's in it?
Oops - I meant RAP 1D rather than RAD 1D...I don't believe you need to buy a car company in order for the marque to feature in your computer game.
The word for it is probably 'synergy'. As a number of people have already pointed out, almost certainly correctly, generally the only way to make a small fortune building relatively low production sports cars is to start off with a large fortune and lose half of it. There are one or two exceptions of course (I wish Ginetta well in leveraging grass-roots motorsport) but the 100k list price of the previous TVR incarnation probably accurately reflects the costs involved in stand-alone manufacturing/marketing operation nowadays.
Of course the two investments happening at the same time could be pure coincidence, but I can see a few viable business models in various combinations of the two. In particular with the computer games angle, you're going to reach a younger audience as the world economy climbs out of the slump and has disposable income again. My impression is that the average age of the TVR owner/fan has gone up quite a bit over the last 10 years, and some of us are starting to get on a bit.
That said, my weapons-grade water guns for Le Mans have just arrived so I feel like a 9-year old again (promisingly, they're not suitable for 8 years or under). See you all in Houx - don't forget your umbrella.
Jasandjules said:
JanvanderHoek said:
Just have read it: The rumours are true, TVR has been sold: The TVRCC has spoken to both the former and new owners of TVR today (Thursday 6th June) and can confirm that Nikolai Smolensky has sold the entirety of the TVR brand and all associated rights and assets to a British company. At the request of the new owners, we will not be joining other sources in speculation, but after speaking to the new owners we are excited about the future and are looking forward to hearing more about their plans for the future.
This sounds fantastic!
I wish them luck, but I'll wait for any hype to be justified by what they do I think
Imo it should use the E46 M3 straight 6 or E90 M3 V8 engines, not look like Goatse, and have fully galvanised chassis with as much protection as you can shake a stick at
Dave
Edited by Mr Whippy on Friday 7th June 15:23
crosseyedlion said:
It would if youre talking low volumes and fiberglass (tooling would be only a little over 100k)
Also, that capital would allow them to borrow much more
Well, new car manufacturing entrant Fisker is just going bust to the tune of $1.4billion, Lotus is struggling despite its wealthy parent, KTM is hardly selling any X-Bows and Ginetta has only sold a tiny handful of G60s.Also, that capital would allow them to borrow much more
Meanwhile Porsche, Jaguar and Corvette are churning out £60k sportscars which will dominate the global market.
You'd IMO need to take a big Brave Pill before getting involved in TVR. The only UK business I can think of that it might fit is Morgan.
Ozzie Osmond said:
...
You'd IMO need to take a big Brave Pill before getting involved in TVR....
We don't know how much was paid, it could have been purchased for £10 and said gent may just be planning on making a car for himself and a handful of friends each year possibly by people/at a location not owned by himself (so no massive financial gamble).You'd IMO need to take a big Brave Pill before getting involved in TVR....
Taking on TVR doesn't mean opening a big factory and hiring 2000 workers.
RichardD said:
We don't know how much was paid, it could have been purchased for £10 and said gent may just be planning on making a car for himself and a handful of friends each year possibly by people/at a location not owned by himself (so no massive financial gamble).
Taking on TVR doesn't mean opening a big factory and hiring 2000 workers.
Exactly. Ton an extent TVR was a victim of its own mid/late-'90s success - had they kept on making 5-700 cars a year that neither the business premises nor the organisational structure and funding - remember Peter Wheeler sold the cars on a 'cost plus' basis - supported, they might have survived much in the same way that Caterham and Morgan are stil with us today.Taking on TVR doesn't mean opening a big factory and hiring 2000 workers.
In the current market I'd guess TVR production numbers will have to be written in double figures rather than triple, with about 2-300, say Wiesmann output, as a sustainable maximum in the longer term, unless something truly spectacular happens like the balance of economic power shifting back from China and the Middle eastern oil states towards Europe...
Edited by 900T-R on Friday 7th June 15:58
Ozzie Osmond said:
Well, new car manufacturing entrant Fisker is just going bust to the tune of $1.4billion, Lotus is struggling despite its wealthy parent, KTM is hardly selling any X-Bows and Ginetta has only sold a tiny handful of G60s.
Meanwhile Porsche, Jaguar and Corvette are churning out £60k sportscars which will dominate the global market.
You'd IMO need to take a big Brave Pill before getting involved in TVR. The only UK business I can think of that it might fit is Morgan.
This is why I reckon TVR would do well to follow Morgan's lead and really distill the very essence of what they're about - and never deviate from it.Meanwhile Porsche, Jaguar and Corvette are churning out £60k sportscars which will dominate the global market.
You'd IMO need to take a big Brave Pill before getting involved in TVR. The only UK business I can think of that it might fit is Morgan.
One of the reasons why Morgan prevails - and why it's so cool - is because it's not trying to compete with anything else. No-one else makes a 'Morgan', they have no need to, it doesn't make the kind of ruthless, gimlet-eyed stopwatch-round-the-Nordschliefe 'sense' that the mainstream demands. However, none of those mainstream marques can convincingly make a car that looks 70 years old and not make you feel like a pensioner.
Same goes for the Caterham Seven. No-one would even try making anything like it outside of the kit-car world. It's probably the reason why Renault saw sense to buy it - none of their competitors will do anything similar.
TVR needs to recognise its USP as being British monsters with barking V8s and knife-edge, sort-it-out-yourself handling characteristics. While the world develops paddleshifts, it MUST retain the three-pedal manual setup.
Re. your other points - Ginetta also has a niche like Morgan and Caterham, but as a race-car constructor. They sell plenty of racers to keep themselves in business, and are heavily involved with motor sport - they even run a Toyota Avensis in the BTCC. The road cars are a spinoff from this, and are basically a slightly nicer-trimmed racing car with numberplates.
And as for Lotus - I can't help but think that it's the lack of wealth of their parent firm that's the problem. Proton sold no cars in Britain in the last quarter, and they've been struggling against the Japanese and Koreans in their home markets. IMO the best-case scenario for Lotus would to be bought by a larger, wealthier and more stable car firm who could do with more motor sport credibility in its own range and would benefit from Lotus input, and Lotus could share in their engine development. Toyota is the obvious choice (they could even release a simplified entry-level Elise rebodied as a new MR2). Renault-Nissan was another until they nabbed Caterham. JLR are a possibility but I get the sense that they'd be a better match with TVR. The Germans are too big and successful in their own right and the Americans would make a mess of it.
Edited by Twincam16 on Friday 7th June 15:59
JonRB said:
Twincam16 said:
Same goes for the Caterham Seven. No-one would even try making anything like it outside of the kit-car world.
Apart from Westfield. And Ariel. And Donkervoort. And KTM (to some extent). And others. That's where TVR fell down last time - they waded into Porsche's marketplace with cars that offered 911 performance for Boxster price, that couldn't offer the same kind of warranty protection and carried a dubious reputation for reliability probems. Porsche responded merely by turning up the wick on the Boxster, and TVR lost the custom of the mainstream.
TVR can succeed if it makes no attempt to be mainstream at all. For TVR to compete with Porsche would be like Judas Priest turning up on The X-Factor to sing reedy-sounding covers of pop ballads for Louis Walsh in an attempt to sell more records to teenage girls.
Stick with the recipe and don't change the fundamentals. Improve the reliability, handling, power etc, but never change the plastic-bodied-V8-engined-manual-gearbox-no-electronics-animal bit. Build only as many cars as you suspect you will sell.
And its already made news across the pond with a nicely written sympathetic article in US Autoweek.
http://www.autoweek.com/article/20130606/CARNEWS/1...
http://www.autoweek.com/article/20130606/CARNEWS/1...
Twincam16 said:
You know what I mean though. They'd never find themselves competing with the corporate might of Porsche.
Indeed. It was just gentle ribbing. Twincam16 said:
That's where TVR fell down last time - they waded into Porsche's marketplace with cars that offered 911 performance for Boxster price, that couldn't offer the same kind of warranty protection and carried a dubious reputation for reliability probems. Porsche responded merely by turning up the wick on the Boxster, and TVR lost the custom of the mainstream.
I totally agree. TVR did so well in the 90's because they had a certain niche almost all to themselves. Then the big players moved into the niche, and TVR tried to compete with them head-on. Twincam16 said:
For TVR to compete with Porsche would be like Judas Priest turning up on The X-Factor to sing reedy-sounding covers of pop ballads for Louis Walsh in an attempt to sell more records to teenage girls.
My hands up to be a dealer if it was to ever happen again......They may struggle with Homoligation unless who ever is willing to spend on development, and they will need to bring out a small engine vehicle/hybrid to keep with current regs....But otherwise defo up for being a dealer!!
Firmly believe they should use the AJP SP6 as Performance Power and St8Six have proven from their developments that the engine is more than reliable
Livin the TVR dream as always
Firmly believe they should use the AJP SP6 as Performance Power and St8Six have proven from their developments that the engine is more than reliable
Livin the TVR dream as always
Twincam16 said:
Stick with the recipe and don't change the fundamentals. Improve the reliability, handling, power etc, but never change the plastic-bodied-V8-engined-manual-gearbox-no-electronics-animal bit. Build only as many cars as you suspect you will sell.
I thought Mr Chevrolet was planning to do that with a properly engineered car for global markets and selling 25,000 of them every year at about £60k.And isn't Mr Jaguar planning to intervene at the party with a very similar recipe?
Still, maybe a few Brits in a shed can do better.
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