Why can nobody drive in the snow
Discussion
300bhp/ton said:
Car-Matt said:
TBF i think its representative of the vast majority of 4x4 cars on the road (300bhp/ton will carry on arguing as he is a landrover enthusiast and therefore will only consider 'proper' 4x4's however these make up a tiny proportion of whats on the roads), and yes the video shows the usual comparison but also shows the other combos too. I made no comment or claims about the results, just shared it for people to see what happens.
So what are the "vast" majority of 4x4's on the road?Toyota, Nissan, Mitsubishi, Jeep or whatever doesn't fundamentally differ from many of the LR products in terms of basic AWD operation.
Tired said:
That's what I do when it snows though. I enjoy it.
As for the 2WD/4WD comparisons with 'all other things being equal', they never are.
Even if you consider a car which is made in 2WD and 4WD flavour, the 4WD one is going to be heavier, which will adversely impact the ability to accelerate, brake, and turn, although may help traction.
I too have been known to go for a jolly in the snow, I tend not to trust people that when presented by an empty snow covered carpark don't do at least one spin.As for the 2WD/4WD comparisons with 'all other things being equal', they never are.
Even if you consider a car which is made in 2WD and 4WD flavour, the 4WD one is going to be heavier, which will adversely impact the ability to accelerate, brake, and turn, although may help traction.
I've actually got a vehicle that's 2wd with switchable 4wd, it's my Nissan Navara pickup truck. It's a simple 50/50 system with no centre diff so you can't use it on tarmac without breaking things.
In reasonable amounts of snow the 4wd certainly helps to get it going as there isn't a great deal of weight over the drive wheels at the back in 2wd.
You can also feel the difference in corners as in 4wd the front wheels are actively pulling round the corner rather than understeering as the rear pushes them wide.
Braking, well I don't tend to try skandi flicks or dabs of handbrake on the road unless I'm pratting about, certainly not if there are other cars/people/lamp posts in the vicinity to hit as I'm not a complete idiot. 2t of truck goes a bloody long way when you get it sliding properly.
The trucks automatic (borked knee) so I tend to let it slow gently before braking, in my experience you're better to have the wheels rotating for traction instead of locked or on ABS for as long as you can unless the snows properly deep.
If it's in 4wd and begins to slide all 4 wheels tend to let go at the same time, where if it's in 2wd it can be more recoverable as it's usually one end that's going so you may still have steering.
Obviously other people may have different ways of looking at it, I've driven offroad but I don't have a knackered landrover or any "one life, live it" stickers.
Edited by Speed addicted on Thursday 24th January 15:23
Car-Matt said:
Are you a bit hard of understanding here? Cars like the KUGA with Haldex style 4wd are MUCH more prevalent on UK roads than the examples you are offering up (and a LOT more likely to be driven by people who care very little about driving techniques and tyres than off road enthusiasts) hence why I said it above. Its not for me to argue any point here though, i merely posted a video for thread followers to watch, if you think its not representative or misleading please contact Auto Express or the Press Complaints office etc. Cheers
The Freelander 2 uses a Haldex based system. The Feelander one doesn't, but the system it has uses the same sort of principles in how it transmits drive.The Honda HR-V I posted a picture of used a form of Haldex I believe.
So why the insult?
Speed addicted said:
I too have been known to go for a jolly in the snow, I tend not to trust people that when presented by an empty snow covered carpark don't do at least one spin.
I've actually got a vehicle that's 2wd with switchable 4wd, it's my Nissan Navara pickup truck. It's a simple 50/50 system with no centre diff so you can't use it on tarmac without breaking things.
In reasonable amounts of snow the 4wd certainly helps to get it going as there isn't a great deal of weight over the drive wheels at the back in 2wd.
You can also feel the difference in corners as in 4wd the front wheels are actively pulling round the corner rather than understeering as the rear pushes them wide.
Braking, well I don't tend to try skandi flicks or dabs of handbrake on the road unless I'm pratting about, certainly not if there are other cars/people/lamp posts in the vicinity to hit as I'm not a complete idiot. 2t of truck goes a bloody long way when you get it sliding properly.
The trucks automatic (borked knee) so I tend to let it slow gently before braking, in my experience you're better to have the wheels rotating for traction instead of locked or on ABS for as long as you can unless the snows properly deep.
If it's in 4wd and begins to slide all 4 wheels tend to let go at the same time, where if it's in 2wd it can be more recoverable as it's usually one end that's going so you may still have steering.
Obviously other people may have different ways of looking at it, I've driven offroad but I don't have a knackered landrover or and "one life, live it" stickers.
I've had a couple of Mutsubishis with the 'better' 4WD system, superselect or whatever it's called, but I've also had some similar to you describe, helical LSD on the rear, switchable 2/4WD with no centre diff.I've actually got a vehicle that's 2wd with switchable 4wd, it's my Nissan Navara pickup truck. It's a simple 50/50 system with no centre diff so you can't use it on tarmac without breaking things.
In reasonable amounts of snow the 4wd certainly helps to get it going as there isn't a great deal of weight over the drive wheels at the back in 2wd.
You can also feel the difference in corners as in 4wd the front wheels are actively pulling round the corner rather than understeering as the rear pushes them wide.
Braking, well I don't tend to try skandi flicks or dabs of handbrake on the road unless I'm pratting about, certainly not if there are other cars/people/lamp posts in the vicinity to hit as I'm not a complete idiot. 2t of truck goes a bloody long way when you get it sliding properly.
The trucks automatic (borked knee) so I tend to let it slow gently before braking, in my experience you're better to have the wheels rotating for traction instead of locked or on ABS for as long as you can unless the snows properly deep.
If it's in 4wd and begins to slide all 4 wheels tend to let go at the same time, where if it's in 2wd it can be more recoverable as it's usually one end that's going so you may still have steering.
Obviously other people may have different ways of looking at it, I've driven offroad but I don't have a knackered landrover or and "one life, live it" stickers.
Fitted Yoko Geolandar ATS to it, and even in a foot of snow, I never got stuck in 2WD. Tremendous thing. I mean, awful too, kid on blue suede with plastic wood trim and 114bhp, but it went everywhere and never let me down.
300bhp/ton said:
Car-Matt said:
Are you a bit hard of understanding here? Cars like the KUGA with Haldex style 4wd are MUCH more prevalent on UK roads than the examples you are offering up (and a LOT more likely to be driven by people who care very little about driving techniques and tyres than off road enthusiasts) hence why I said it above. Its not for me to argue any point here though, i merely posted a video for thread followers to watch, if you think its not representative or misleading please contact Auto Express or the Press Complaints office etc. Cheers
The Freelander 2 uses a Haldex based system. The Feelander one doesn't, but the system it has uses the same sort of principles in how it transmits drive.The Honda HR-V I posted a picture of used a form of Haldex I believe.
So why the insult?
Tired said:
I've had a couple of Mutsubishis with the 'better' 4WD system, superselect or whatever it's called, but I've also had some similar to you describe, helical LSD on the rear, switchable 2/4WD with no centre diff.
Fitted Yoko Geolandar ATS to it, and even in a foot of snow, I never got stuck in 2WD. Tremendous thing. I mean, awful too, kid on blue suede with plastic wood trim and 114bhp, but it went everywhere and never let me down.
Mines a 2017 so has 190bhp with leather and all the toys. It's a big comfortable bus! Fitted Yoko Geolandar ATS to it, and even in a foot of snow, I never got stuck in 2WD. Tremendous thing. I mean, awful too, kid on blue suede with plastic wood trim and 114bhp, but it went everywhere and never let me down.
It's still on the Continental all seasons, I might go for something a bit meatier if they ever wear out.
I went to have a look at the Mitsubishi but didn't fit due to the sunroof (6'2" with a long back, short legs), the useless salesman told me you couldn't get them without the sunroof so I went and bought the Nissan, only to discover later that they're available with or without it in most specs.
I'd have preferred the option to have full time 4x4 for the mixed snow and dry roads in winter.
Graveworm said:
The right tyres make all the difference but awd does help. Unless truly coasting it can spreadi the engine drive/Braking across up to twice the area and doubles the opportunity to find traction. In some cases it improves braking but I think that was over rated, in the tests, based on the vehicles that were used.
Yeah it helps you get going, never debated that. Only the deeply rooted sense that it is anywhere equal or a replacement of proper tyre choice. I will always choose the car with the better tyres over the one with 4wd.Here some slow parking lot action with 4wd and ice under the snow and not so good (but average for the UK) winter tyres. It is slow....
https://youtu.be/ciVOtnqj5xg
Sheepshanks said:
Onehp said:
Maybe take Matts conclusion to heart: "without the right rubber, a 4wd car is just as useless as a 2wd car" ...
My wife's Tiguan has 4Motion and winter tyres - in the icy snow we've had in the last couple of days it's still pretty iffy braking and cornering, on flowing bends the car was still going sideways at very low speed. The thing it's great at is pulling away from rest in a straight line - even pretty firm acceleration didn't break traction. If all winter tyred vehicles are like that it's easy to imagine why their drivers get caught out.
I know we are debating summer vs winter. But for me that drives 3-4 months a year on all kinds of winter surfaces, you learn there are many kinds of slippery. There is also a whole world of bad vs good winter tyres, Nordic vs european, Studded vs unstudded.
For me, recommending good All Seasons if you intend to drive in snow at any stretch is really the very minimum. If you end up on sheet ice, they are still s
t compared to a proper Nordic winter tyre... That would be overkill in most of the UK, but for those living on sloped highlands with more than a weeks of snow per year, I might even recommend them... Car-Matt said:
No insult just a question.....you are being deliberately obtuse. You KNOW as well as the rest of us that the majority of 4wd cars on the road have KUGA style 4wd (as I already said) which is predominantly fwd until a needed.......bmwsx-
I don't really know this, I don't have sales numbers. TBH I would be surprised if it's true. I know BMW X-Drives and the increase in Crossover vehicles is far greater these days, but there is simply a huge variance in how they all operate. They aren't all the same.And I suspect many of the crossovers are 2wd, as the 4wd variants cost more money.
But there are still plenty of regular 4wd/awd vehicles on the roads.
And as stated, the Freelander 2 uses a Haldex system anyhow, so not all that different from the Kuga.....
"The 4WD system was developed in conjunction with Haldex and was called Third generation coupling. Vehicles from the 2009 model year are fitted with a modified design of the active on-demand coupling, known as Haldex's Fourth generation."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_Rover_Freelande...
Freelanders are very good in the snow (I'm in one today in fact, although no real snow of note
)BrassMan said:
EazyDuz said:
Op claims to have seen cars locking up their wheels. Sounds like BS to me, ABS is on basically all road worthy cars these days
ABS doesn't work too well on ice/snow and if it's sufficiently icy, engine braking can overwhelm the grip.UK drivers tend to be awful at driving in snow because they have so little driving skill, modern cars flatter and take away the need so when conditions actually become bad enough to need skill, they don't have it. UK drivers are also impatient. My wife, last year, was taking it (not unreasonably) easy down a hill, a local tool in a rear wheel drive BMW decided to flash lights and then overtake, which involved spinning his car and hitting the kerbs on both side of the road.
Onehp said:
Yeah it helps you get going, never debated that. Only the deeply rooted sense that it is anywhere equal or a replacement of proper tyre choice. I will always choose the car with the better tyres over the one with 4wd.
Here some slow parking lot action with 4wd and ice under the snow and not so good (but average for the UK) winter tyres. It is slow....
https://youtu.be/ciVOtnqj5xg
That's quite a good vid tbh. It shows how 4wd allows the car to drift and change direction. Better tyres will help this, but you simply coudn't do the same in a 2wd Golf, regardless of what tyres is was fitted with.Here some slow parking lot action with 4wd and ice under the snow and not so good (but average for the UK) winter tyres. It is slow....
https://youtu.be/ciVOtnqj5xg
When I had my Impreza it was on summer tyres. It went everywhere I could take it in the snow, including around a field and over the highest hills in the area. Better tyres would have improved things no end, but there is no way in hell I'd have taken a 2wd car on summer tyres the same places. And probably wouldn't have taken a 2wd car in the field either, even on winters.
Onehp said:
That’s exactly what I am at. 4wd feels great when you need to get moving, but it kinda ends there.
I know we are debating summer vs winter. But for me that drives 3-4 months a year on all kinds of winter surfaces, you learn there are many kinds of slippery. There is also a whole world of bad vs good winter tyres, Nordic vs european, Studded vs unstudded.
For me, recommending good All Seasons if you intend to drive in snow at any stretch is really the very minimum. If you end up on sheet ice, they are still st compared to a proper Nordic winter tyre... That would be overkill in most of the UK, but for those living on sloped highlands with more than a weeks of snow per year, I might even recommend them...
Agree, sheet ice is slippery no matter what. Although winters will be massively better than summer or even all season on such roads.I know we are debating summer vs winter. But for me that drives 3-4 months a year on all kinds of winter surfaces, you learn there are many kinds of slippery. There is also a whole world of bad vs good winter tyres, Nordic vs european, Studded vs unstudded.
For me, recommending good All Seasons if you intend to drive in snow at any stretch is really the very minimum. If you end up on sheet ice, they are still s
t compared to a proper Nordic winter tyre... That would be overkill in most of the UK, but for those living on sloped highlands with more than a weeks of snow per year, I might even recommend them... I would say, in the UK, at least around where I live, sheet ice and snow seem to be mutually exclusive for the most part. Snow normally falls at 2-3 degress C, so it is often wet or dry out before it snows, rarely icy. And the snow never lingers long enough on the roads for it to get really icy.
Arguably the slipperiest roads are often Closes and Crescents on housing estates. As they have a relatively low volume of traffic and don't get gritted or cleared. They often end up with a compacted layer of snow and more ice. Main roads always get cleared and even a lot of the minor roads round here.
ruprechtmonkeyboy said:
Onehp said:
Maybe take Matts conclusion to heart: "without the right rubber, a 4wd car is just as useless as a 2wd car" ...
I've read some silly comments on here before but this one really takes the biscuit! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=atayHQYqA3g&fe...
Oilchange said:
And yet if you watch this vid it proves the point.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=atayHQYqA3g&fe...
I was going to wait for an answer before posting the same.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=atayHQYqA3g&fe...
Oilchange said:
ruprechtmonkeyboy said:
Onehp said:
Maybe take Matts conclusion to heart: "without the right rubber, a 4wd car is just as useless as a 2wd car" ...
I've read some silly comments on here before but this one really takes the biscuit! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=atayHQYqA3g&fe...
The video shows that awd on summers is significantly worse than a fwd car with winters. What it doesn’t show is that awd and fwd cars would be equals in that weather.
Alpinestars said:
Oilchange said:
ruprechtmonkeyboy said:
Onehp said:
Maybe take Matts conclusion to heart: "without the right rubber, a 4wd car is just as useless as a 2wd car" ...
I've read some silly comments on here before but this one really takes the biscuit! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=atayHQYqA3g&fe...
The video shows that awd on summers is significantly worse than a fwd car with winters. What it doesn’t show is that awd and fwd cars would be equals in that weather.
(their conclusion is, if you read the last page, based on the fact the 4wd slithered back to a point below the 2wd car. And as far as I am concerned, the point is not about being equal, the point is they are both useless. Perhaps in varying degrees, but useless nevertheless. Utterly useless.
Alpinestars said:
Oilchange said:
ruprechtmonkeyboy said:
Onehp said:
Maybe take Matts conclusion to heart: "without the right rubber, a 4wd car is just as useless as a 2wd car" ...
I've read some silly comments on here before but this one really takes the biscuit! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=atayHQYqA3g&fe...
The video shows that awd on summers is significantly worse than a fwd car with winters. What it doesn’t show is that awd and fwd cars would be equals in that weather.
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