RE: Why the Lotus Elise still matters | PH Footnote

[bcr5784]

Tickle said:

My car weights less than the S1 111s kg quoted. Not sure if it was weighed with the hardtop on and soft top in the boot as part of the official figures. Even so, it's about 30kg less.

I'm beginning to wonder if there is a significant difference in weight between individual cars. There will be minor differences (paints differ in weight depending on colour etc) but I'm thinking bigger differences. If you go over the Harry's Garage and read his review you will find that his Elan is light - because Lotus were in financial difficulties at times (nothing new) and actually used less fibreglass in the shell! See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvZWJ0oIYyI about 9 minutes in.

Edited by bcr5784 on Friday 9th August 11:38

[Shnozz]

james_gt3rs said:

CanAm said:

Yes please, as I'm considering doing the reverse.

Not owned a Caterham but driven one. The noise and refinement is a lot worse than an Elise, an Elise can be driven in all weathers, long distance no problem. I personally wouldn't in a Caterham...

On the right day, the Caterham is the better car.

The problem is, those right days are about 2 or 3 a year.

[kambites]

bcr5784 said:

I'm beginning to wonder if there is a significant difference in weight between individual cars.

I don't know, but from what I've seen the vast majority of cars seem to be within half a tank's worth of fuel either side of Lotus's claimed weights.

Lotus's production is quite as shoddy now as it was in the 60s, although I appreciate that's a low bar to have improved on. I know a couple of Elan owners and both of their cars are full of bits which really shouldn't have been on the model in question.

[williamp]

If you are keen, there is a 2 hour documentary about developing the elise on youtube

[cerb4.5lee]

Shnozz said:

james_gt3rs said:

CanAm said:

Yes please, as I'm considering doing the reverse.

Not owned a Caterham but driven one. The noise and refinement is a lot worse than an Elise, an Elise can be driven in all weathers, long distance no problem. I personally wouldn't in a Caterham...

On the right day, the Caterham is the better car.

The problem is, those right days are about 2 or 3 a year.

I thoroughly enjoyed the drive that I had of my father in laws Caterham...but It is a car that you can't really leave anywhere and the looks are an acquired taste. It is the closest you will get to a motorbike though and they are a great head turner as well.

Money no object I would certainly fancy one in my garage though for sure.

[Shnozz]

cerb4.5lee said:

Shnozz said:

james_gt3rs said:

CanAm said:

Yes please, as I'm considering doing the reverse.

Not owned a Caterham but driven one. The noise and refinement is a lot worse than an Elise, an Elise can be driven in all weathers, long distance no problem. I personally wouldn't in a Caterham...

On the right day, the Caterham is the better car.

The problem is, those right days are about 2 or 3 a year.

I thoroughly enjoyed the drive that I had of my father in laws Caterham...but It is a car that you can't really leave anywhere and the looks are an acquired taste. It is the closest you will get to a motorbike though and they are a great head turner as well.

Money no object I would certainly fancy one in my garage though for sure.

I agree. Although you probably can leave it roof off as there is bugger all inside to thieve or get wet.

Every so often when I want a hooligan day I rent a Caterham via BookaTrack and enjoy it in proper surroundings on track. A few weeks ago I did the drift challenge at Donington in a rented Caterham and had a great laugh.;

Hard to justify having one in the garage for such infrequent use; easier to justify an elise/exige that at least can just about do "normal" as well as backroad blasts.

[bcr5784]

williamp said:

If you are keen, there is a 2 hour documentary about developing the elise on youtube

Good watch - original target weight was 550kg, but then they went all soft and added doors.

[kambites]

bcr5784 said:

williamp said:

If you are keen, there is a 2 hour documentary about developing the elise on youtube

Good watch - original target weight was 550kg...

Indeed, but the original concept was for a car with no doors or windscreen.

I seem to remember from when I had mine off that the doors of an Elise are surprisingly heavy things, albeit not 140kg!

Edited by kambites on Friday 9th August 13:36

[otolith]

Not so much went soft as realised that the changes to make the doorless car legal would make it look awful.

[RobM77]

Shnozz said:

cerb4.5lee said:

Shnozz said:

james_gt3rs said:

CanAm said:

Yes please, as I'm considering doing the reverse.

Not owned a Caterham but driven one. The noise and refinement is a lot worse than an Elise, an Elise can be driven in all weathers, long distance no problem. I personally wouldn't in a Caterham...

On the right day, the Caterham is the better car.

The problem is, those right days are about 2 or 3 a year.

I thoroughly enjoyed the drive that I had of my father in laws Caterham...but It is a car that you can't really leave anywhere and the looks are an acquired taste. It is the closest you will get to a motorbike though and they are a great head turner as well.

Money no object I would certainly fancy one in my garage though for sure.

I agree. Although you probably can leave it roof off as there is bugger all inside to thieve or get wet.

Every so often when I want a hooligan day I rent a Caterham via BookaTrack and enjoy it in proper surroundings on track. A few weeks ago I did the drift challenge at Donington in a rented Caterham and had a great laugh.;

Hard to justify having one in the garage for such infrequent use; easier to justify an elise/exige that at least can just about do "normal" as well as backroad blasts.

I've owned an Elise, a 2-Eleven and two Caterhams (one Roadsport and one race spec car, albeit a very tired one). I drove all on the road and track, including the Nürburgring in the Elise and a rented race spec Caterham.

For me, the Elise is like listening to a CD on a great hi-fi, and the Caterham is like being at a concert. In the Caterham, the sensations are all so much more intense and loud; they have a particular smell, the engine barks away angrily, they slip and slide around constantly, and the gear ratios are really close together. For a weekend or trackday hit, they're hard to beat. The Elise is much more refined, but I find they actually have better feedback, and what you do feel is in perfect stereo front:rear (with a 7 you only really feel the back; the front feels quite distant). The 2-Eleven was like an Elise, just lighter, much faster and with the handling traits (which I describe below) magnified.

Each car had its handling foibles; the Caterham has the better handling balance in low to mid-speed corners, although it was so easily upset with a passenger or fuel because both those go over the rear axle. Any passenger over about 70kg just ruined it for me. The Elise's balance was very rear heavy (around 65-70% of its weight is on the rear wheels), although passengers and fuel upset it less because they went within the wheelbase, not over the back. Handling balance at speed in the Caterham went all weird because the front lifted noticeably as you got faster. Through fast corners like the Craner Curves or Copse it was the exact opposite of a downforce single seater - it felt like someone was picking the front up off the ground and you needed more lock at the then very light helm. At speed the S1 Elise had slight rear lift, and the S2 slight rear downforce; so either way they felt very different to a 7 at speed. Around a fast circuit like the Nordschliefe these differences were very apparent.

The Elise has far better grip and wheel control; it's basically a much stiffer chassis with independent suspension all round and far better tuned springs and dampers. This gives a more precise track experience to the Caterhams more live-wire one.

If I wasn't married I'd have both

[TartanPaint]

kambites said:

bcr5784 said:

williamp said:

If you are keen, there is a 2 hour documentary about developing the elise on youtube

Good watch - original target weight was 550kg...

Indeed, but the original concept was for a car with no doors or windscreen.

I seem to remember from when I had mine off that the doors of an Elise are surprisingly heavy things, albeit not 140kg!

The 2-11 is at least 200kg lighter than the equivalent S2, and early S1s were around 725kg.

So 550kg target for a doorless, screenless S1 was perhaps optimistic, but not a totally insane target.

[kambites]

TartanPaint said:

So 550kg target for a doorless, screenless S1 was perhaps optimistic, but not a totally insane target.

Curiously, the 340R weighed about the same as the S1 Elise, though. I guess that body was monumentally heavy.

[RobM77]

TartanPaint said:

kambites said:

bcr5784 said:

williamp said:

If you are keen, there is a 2 hour documentary about developing the elise on youtube

Good watch - original target weight was 550kg...

Indeed, but the original concept was for a car with no doors or windscreen.

I seem to remember from when I had mine off that the doors of an Elise are surprisingly heavy things, albeit not 140kg!

The 2-11 is at least 200kg lighter than the equivalent S2, and early S1s were around 725kg.

So 550kg target for a doorless, screenless S1 was perhaps optimistic, but not a totally insane target.

I can't remember the exact figure now, but I think my 2-Eleven cornerweighted at about 670kg with fuel on board. There were many things about it inherently heavier than an early Elise, namely the 2L Toyota engine, supercharger and oil reservoir system, much larger wheels and tyres, and steel brake discs. I don't think mid to high 500s was at all optimistic for a K series Elise without doors or screen to be honest.

[TartanPaint]

Blimey, 670kg is incredible! I must get mine weighed...

[bcr5784]

otolith said:

Not so much went soft as realised that the changes to make the doorless car legal would make it look awful.

Yes that is what the stylist said - but I couldn't see that raising the sill height by an inch to make it legal was such a big deal. I can't help feeling that they would have overruled that if they hadn't thought that doors were the way to go anyway. Styling is part art part BS - that was the BS bit imo.

Edited by bcr5784 on Friday 9th August 15:07

[RobM77]

TartanPaint said:

Blimey, 670kg is incredible! I must get mine weighed...

I think so. I'm not sure I've still got the details, I think I gave them to the car's new owner. As I mentioned earlier, I went on a few Lotus track days and it was significantly quicker than anything else, even cars that should have been faster on paper like the more powerful Exige Cup models.

[kambites]

bcr5784 said:

Yes that is what the stylist said - but I couldn't see that raising the sill height by an inch to make it legal was such a big deal. I can't help feeling that they would have overruled that if they hadn't thought that doors were the way to go anyway. Styling is part art part BS - that was the BS bit imo.

I haven't watched that video for years, but I thought the problem was that there was a maximum step-over height which would have meant huge cut-outs in the side of the car where they wanted a straightish shoulder line?

[bcr5784]

kambites said:

I haven't watched that video for years, but I thought the problem was that there was a maximum step-over height which would have meant huge cut-outs in the side of the car where they wanted a straightish shoulder line?

I'd have to watch it again but I thought it was simply a matter of moving the shoulder line by literally an inch. Seemed like the stylist was getting precious over his design - but I may have misread what was going on.

[kambites]

You may be right. Either way I'm glad they changed their minds. The Elise with doors, a windscreen and a roof was a far more interesting addition to the market than yet another super-lightweight with no weather protection would have been.

[bcr5784]

kambites said:

You may be right. Either way I'm glad they changed their minds. The Elise with doors, a windscreen and a roof was a far more interesting addition to the market than yet another super-lightweight with no weather protection would have been.

I'd agree - but they did rather land on their feet (given the long timescales it takes to develop a car). They produced an excellent car when there wasn't much competition - had the C21 been better the result may have been different. There are parallels with Alpine, had Porsche not dropped the ball with the 718 then the Alpine wouldn't have gained the traction it has. You do have to create a good design to exploit the failings of others, of course, but luck does play a part.