RE: Tell me I'm wrong: BMW M5
Discussion
E38Ross said:
sleep envy said:
jbi said:
than lots of horsepower to propel you away at warp speed.
all the way to 60 mph...Some of the great roads around here in Brecon beacons are twisty but lovely and open, no harm going well north of that. As I said, some people will never understand the speed thing. What I find odd that these people still like ferraris lambos etc
jbi said:
I have been in 800hp cars that, while requiring a healthy amount of respect, are an absolute hoot to drive at perfectly legal speeds
It only takes a moderately quick car by modern standards to get to the point where you get very little opportunity to enjoy what it can do within the law. Saying that isn't the same as claiming never to break the law...But on the flip side, if your car is much slower you can floor it for longer but you don't get that mega fast thrill of speed. I'd rather have it for 2 seconds than not at all.
It's horses for courses. Those cars mentally quick in a straight line can still be hustled around corners, so you can get the best of both worlds. It all depends what you want. From something like an m5 id want lots of power. Easy overtakes, easy high speed cruising when conditions allow, it's an A road and motorway car, not a small B road blaster like an Elise, and it doesn't try to be.
It's horses for courses. Those cars mentally quick in a straight line can still be hustled around corners, so you can get the best of both worlds. It all depends what you want. From something like an m5 id want lots of power. Easy overtakes, easy high speed cruising when conditions allow, it's an A road and motorway car, not a small B road blaster like an Elise, and it doesn't try to be.
I've been going through some old topics and I wondered how people now feel about this iteration I the M5? The reason i ask is that because of the cheap finance deals available I know there are a lot of people who now have these.
The thing is I have been considering an E60 M5 because I've always fancied one but the reality is I just can't justify the high running costs and rubbish MPG. They are without doubt a depreciating asset that can't be used on UK roads. Yes hey are good for a long road trip into Europe but how often does this happen? Once a year? Might as well hire one for the trip and have a more enjoyable car for the UK. I've recently driven the Mini Coupe in coopers S and JCW guise and they feel much more suited to the roads that I drive regularly so I'd get more fun out of them nearer the speed limit; that said they are FWD and that is the main issue for me as I prefer RWD.
Still love that E60 V10 engine though!
The thing is I have been considering an E60 M5 because I've always fancied one but the reality is I just can't justify the high running costs and rubbish MPG. They are without doubt a depreciating asset that can't be used on UK roads. Yes hey are good for a long road trip into Europe but how often does this happen? Once a year? Might as well hire one for the trip and have a more enjoyable car for the UK. I've recently driven the Mini Coupe in coopers S and JCW guise and they feel much more suited to the roads that I drive regularly so I'd get more fun out of them nearer the speed limit; that said they are FWD and that is the main issue for me as I prefer RWD.
Still love that E60 V10 engine though!
dasherdiablo1 said:
I've recently driven the Mini Coupe in coopers S and JCW guise and they feel much more suited to the roads that I drive regularly so I'd get more fun out of them nearer the speed limit; that said they are FWD and that is the main issue for me as I prefer RWD.
1-series?Zod said:
MC Bodge said:
Zod said:
I enjoyed my E60 M5 for five years, even on boys of my London commute.
The mind bogglesI cannot believe people are comparing an FWD shopping trolley, albeit with a MINI badge and a V10 super-car baiting saloon. You know, I really like the Lambo Diablo and its V12, but it is very thirsty, and perhaps a Vauxhall Corsa VXR Nurburgring edition is better suited for my needs around Chislehurst? What do you think?
Cheburator mk2 said:
Zod said:
MC Bodge said:
Zod said:
I enjoyed my E60 M5 for five years, even on boys of my London commute.
The mind bogglesI cannot believe people are comparing an FWD shopping trolley, albeit with a MINI badge and a V10 super-car baiting saloon. You know, I really like the Lambo Diablo and its V12, but it is very thirsty, and perhaps a Vauxhall Corsa VXR Nurburgring edition is better suited for my needs around Chislehurst? What do you think?
Not really. The point is the M5 doesn't really work on UK roads anymore. Yes it is a nice car and you can get around in it but you can't drive it to its potential and the point is that these type cars are boring when you can't push them the way try are supposed to be used. You can of course be irresponsible and drive it like you stole it but at some point your talent will run out or the police will catch up with you.
The mini JCW is probably a much more rewarding drive than an m5 on UK roads. Having the m5 becomes a status symbol rather than a bit of fun. Lets liken it to two women; one of them is fit and flexible who likes a daily session and won't expect you to treat her all the time. The other one who is a great 5hag when she really gets going but you only get to sleep with her twice a year as the rest of the time you just don't get the chance to use her properly- oh yes plus she is very high maintenance and always wants to be treated with new shoes, jewellery, holidays with the girls etc.
I know which one I'd choose....
Reawakening this thread again... not much I can add except to say I reckon the E39 in all iterations is largely the perfect 5-series. Had an F11 diesel courtesy car for a month - ugly, bloated, vastly heavier than the E39 (about 300kg if memory serves), dead electric steering... if BMW made the E39 M5 today it'd sell like hotcakes. This? Not convinced. It really is too lardy, the styling too contrived and unappealing and insufficiently driver-focussed. The M5 was never supposed to be a Merc AMG-baiter - and frankly I'd still rather have the AMG. Merc's new turbo V8 even sounds worlds better than BMW's. I'm also disappointed that primary safety is being sacrificed on the altar of secondary safety - yes, you're much safer in one of these in a crash than in an E39 let alone an E28, but you're also more likely to crash it, even going no faster. I also reckon that the heavier, more powerful car, where the driver is more isolated, feels slower than it actually is, more so than the lighter, more involving car. Taking this argument to 'reductio ad absurdam', a Caterham or a Morgan 3-wheeler feels bloody fast at 60mph. Even my lowly E39 520i isn't that much fun at 60 on an A-road. I really do think you'd be getting into license loss territory every time you wanted to have fun in the F10 M5. At least the E60 made up for it in theatrics, with that Formula One-derived screaming lunatic V10. One owner I met described it to me as a psychotic war-machine, that tried to kill you at every opportunity, demanded to be wrestled, all the while screaming blue bloody murder at you. Perhaps not terribly civilised around town, but at least the gearbox suited the engine's F1 derivation. It's a shame they never made the long-rumoured V10 M1-replacement R8-rival supercar. The E39 seemed like the perfect mix of civilisation and performance and I'm seriously thinking of getting one. PLENTY fast enough to lose your license in, but more usable and involving (not to mention a lot prettier). The E92 M3 saloon seemed like more of a real replacement for it, leaving no replacement at all for the old E46 M3, but what now? The new M3 4-door is likely to be even bigger than the E39. And still no 'M' Touring - even though AMG estates outsell saloons by a large margin and Audi Quattro have discontinued the RS4/6 saloons altogether!
RoverP6B said:
Reawakening this thread again... not much I can add except to say I reckon the E39 in all iterations is largely the perfect 5-series. Had an F11 diesel courtesy car for a month - ugly, bloated, vastly heavier than the E39 (about 300kg if memory serves), dead electric steering... if BMW made the E39 M5 today it'd sell like hotcakes. This? Not convinced. It really is too lardy, the styling too contrived and unappealing and insufficiently driver-focussed. The M5 was never supposed to be a Merc AMG-baiter - and frankly I'd still rather have the AMG. Merc's new turbo V8 even sounds worlds better than BMW's. I'm also disappointed that primary safety is being sacrificed on the altar of secondary safety - yes, you're much safer in one of these in a crash than in an E39 let alone an E28, but you're also more likely to crash it, even going no faster. I also reckon that the heavier, more powerful car, where the driver is more isolated, feels slower than it actually is, more so than the lighter, more involving car. Taking this argument to 'reductio ad absurdam', a Caterham or a Morgan 3-wheeler feels bloody fast at 60mph. Even my lowly E39 520i isn't that much fun at 60 on an A-road. I really do think you'd be getting into license loss territory every time you wanted to have fun in the F10 M5. At least the E60 made up for it in theatrics, with that Formula One-derived screaming lunatic V10. One owner I met described it to me as a psychotic war-machine, that tried to kill you at every opportunity, demanded to be wrestled, all the while screaming blue bloody murder at you. Perhaps not terribly civilised around town, but at least the gearbox suited the engine's F1 derivation. It's a shame they never made the long-rumoured V10 M1-replacement R8-rival supercar. The E39 seemed like the perfect mix of civilisation and performance and I'm seriously thinking of getting one. PLENTY fast enough to lose your license in, but more usable and involving (not to mention a lot prettier). The E92 M3 saloon seemed like more of a real replacement for it, leaving no replacement at all for the old E46 M3, but what now? The new M3 4-door is likely to be even bigger than the E39. And still no 'M' Touring - even though AMG estates outsell saloons by a large margin and Audi Quattro have discontinued the RS4/6 saloons altogether!
Have you driven an F11 M5?No such thing as an F11 M5 - M division having decided in their infinite wisdom that there's no market for fast estates. Haven't had a go in the F10 and frankly I don't want to - I just could not live with either the auto (DCT or otherwise) nor the looks. Oh, and Harris makes the observation about unusable power in his latest video here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-yCupxxErM
AreOut said:
if you like E39 M5 and would like a new car you can get F80 M3, about the same size of E39(even bigger in volume!), you can get manual transmission and its a whole lot lighter (around 700 lbs, how, I don't know)
The problem with that is that the M3 has likewise got FAR too heavy. Even the M2, or M235i, or 235i M Coupe, or whatever it'll be called, is NOT going to be a small, light car. It's more E46 size than E21 or E30 - and that's a problem in a world where we're trying to drive size and weight down. Personally, I think Robert Jankel was decades ahead of his time with the Triumph Dolomite-based Panther Rio - a genuinely luxuriously-appointed but properly small car. The price was the sticking point, but don't tell me none of the big carmakers could make the concept work now. The Dolomite Sprint remains one of the world's great sports saloons - 1000kg weight, 127bhp stock (160hp easily achievable, and that's before you look into the Saab turbo derivative), LSD as standard IIRC. I honestly don't think it's possible to have more fun in a car than absolutely thrashing the arse off a Dolly Sprint. Is it too much to hope for a car like that again? I recall Gordon Murray saying that he could make a Lotus Elan replica which could pass all today's crash tests but pare the weight back to near the original with a light alloy engine, gearbox and diff casings etc... I hope he does it, and turns to the Dolomite or early BMWs thereafter. I saw a 1-series coupe parked alongside a 2002 last summer - the 1er looked ENORMOUS next to the 2002. Even my old V8 Rover, regarded in its time as a relatively big and heavy car, definitely a prestige motor driven by mayors, lawyers, accountants, judges (and Peter Sutcliffe, the Yorkshire Ripper, had the exact twin of mine) is smaller than a 1-series and weighs under 1300kg. With all the advances in light alloy construction and engine tech, it seems stupid that we're still building 2-ton barges as fun, fast cars. Nobody needs 550hp - it's simply about bragging rights. I want to see the next M5 be no more than 15ft 6ins long, 1800mm wide and weigh no more than 1600kg. Manual gearbox as the only choice. Naturally aspirated cross-plane-crank 3.2 litre V8 making no more than 400hp but revving to 9000rpm. No DCT, no trick exhaust flaps, no fake stereo engine noise, no E-diff, just a mechanical LSD. A quiet exhaust and a noisy intake w/carbon airbox a la M3 CSL. Hydraulic steering. A proper ratchet-lever handbrake. Manual seat adjustment. Perhaps switchable cylinder deactivation for economical cruising. Is all this really so much to ask?AreOut said:
well F80 M3 is a lot lighter than 1600 kg(I don't know how they have achieved that) and it's V6 turbo behaves like a small V8, bare the sound :/
Inline six, not V6. 1600kg was being generous and reasonable. Next M3 is 1500kg which is good, but it ought to be wearing an M5 badge, not an M3 one - M3 should be down around 1200kg. It's still going to be turbocharged, with fake engine noise and DCT.RoverP6B said:
Inline six, not V6. 1600kg was being generous and reasonable. Next M3 is 1500kg which is good, but it ought to be wearing an M5 badge, not an M3 one - M3 should be down around 1200kg. It's still going to be turbocharged, with fake engine noise and DCT.
The new M3 is available with a Spanish 'box as well as the DCT. 
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