RE: You Know You Want To: BMW E30 M3

[flatline84]

AFAIK mercedes started making their own tops for the 2.5, cosworth might have made some early 2.5, history is a bit woolen here.
The 2.3 is supposed to be a bit more sweet and willing to rev, more like a race engine. The 2.5 is more grunty and lazy.

For me, it has to be the 2.3. There are specialists in germany who can do wonders to it as well. 300 bhp NA? No problem..

[chrisr29]

Guvernator said:

chrisr29 said:

Better engine how? The m3 runs individual throttle bodies and Motronic engine management where as the Merc has a single throttle body and clunky old KE Jet.

M3 revs harder and pulls as well low down.

Both engines are quite archaic now compared to modern engines so I'm not really fussed about what makes them tick. A lot of owners change bits in the engine on both cars anyway to improve on some of the limitations of the orignal design.

What I am talking about is feel. While both produce very similiar levels of power and torque, I just prefer the way the Merc engine delivers. It feels smoother and stronger, a view shared by many. Apart from timing chain weakness suffered by the earlier 2.3 cars which were later rectified, the engine as well as the other mechanicals and bodywork are pretty much bombproof. As a 20+ year old car I think it's just an easier ownership proposition than the more fragile\rust prown M3.

Fair enough. Just take it from someone who's rebuilt a Cossie Merc that they do rust, (ok not as bad as an e30) especially under the body kit.

They are no easier an ownership proposition though. Can be tricky to keep in tune, hydraulics can be a pain as they opperate the rear suspension plus the diff, they have a multitude of ECUs opperating different things etc. Don't get me wrong, I think they're great just don't go into ownership without serious research.

On the plus side, build quality is phenominal, parts availabilty excellent and can be cheap to insure on clasic policy. Not tooooo bad on fuel either.

Oh, m3 e30 is not a fragile car, mines done over 300,000 km and still revs it's bits off.

[Johnboy Mac]

flatline84 said:

I think both cars look great, I can understand the sentiment that the M3`s look better and thus have a bigger following though.
Tht being said, for me a big attraction is how well-built something is. Its somewhat of a douzer for me when it comes to Alfas, 635`s etc,
and for the money involved I think its a bit of a drawback when it comes to the M3. It is an icon and drives like few other things,
but I cant help but feel the superior build quality of the mercedes is a big reason for lusting after one..

Still as a daily driver I believe the M3 lags behind the Merc no matter what anybody says, it really is on the likes of the N5 and many more of our national routes never mind B roads. Putting the driving position aside the Merc has deep quality in all departments plus the benefit of multi link rear end and the better build quality and the better car for a long haul motoring I'd say. Still respect to the BM and as I said earlier would'nt mind one but only as 2nd car, the Merc is hailed as the best daily for good reasons.

Yeah, the M3 does look more sporty, no doubt there unless one starts to include the EVO & EVOII versions of the Merc, but EVOII's are making (advertised) at very big money some with 40k plus price tags and up to 80k! One of the things about the Merc is the original 2.3-16 was Merc's first competition car for 30 years, so Merc were not known for building small, light sports cars while BMW were (think 2002's,CSL's & hot E21's) and the Merc was also far more expensive that the BM so Merc were on the back foot from the off. And then the E30 M3 arrived that certainly didn't help Merc as overall the BMW was a more focused drivers car, not by much but it was better in that department. I do totally agree with you, the Merc is the better daily driver and still eats B roads. Having said all that I would have purchased an M3 rather than the Merc but when value and practicalities came into play the Merc won the day for me and no regrets happliy with 200k on it now.

[benny.c]

Guvernator said:

Both engines are quite archaic now compared to modern engines...

Maybe, but the numbers still stack up pretty well for a 25 year old engine. 220 odd BHP from an N/A 2.3L and it'll do 40mpg on a run if you take it easy (which is hard ). That's still pretty impressive when you think the EP3 Civic Type-R is 200 BHP from a 2L, with similar economy.

[Johnboy Mac]

benny.c said:

Maybe, but the numbers still stack up pretty well for a 25 year old engine. 220 odd BHP from an N/A 2.3L and it'll do 40mpg on a run if you take it easy (which is hard ). That's still pretty impressive when you think the EP3 Civic Type-R is 200 BHP from a 2L, with similar economy.

40mpg, wow that's bloody impressive. I think the very best I got from the 2.5-16(204bhp) was only 33mpg but mostly around 27'ish mixed driving. Not that mpg is an issue but 40 is brilliant.

[flatline84]

33 is brilliant too, If you are bothered by that figure you are either a bean counter or doing 70.000 miles a year, so I think its brilliant for an enthusiast engine.

10-15 MPG, I can see that being a nuissance

[daveco]

Out of interest, all this talk of being able to get more hp easily out of the 2.5...would this apply to the I6 2.5 as well (E30/E36/E46 derivatives)?

[g3org3y]

Bodie390 said:

Here's mine -



And with it's baby brother, but my personal favourite over the M3 -



I always wanted the E30 M3, I bought my 325 back in 1994 and always wanted to upgrade but never got round to it.

Several years later after restoring the 325 and realising I had nothing to do with myself, I bought one before I got out priced.

I truly believe I should of left the M3 as my hero instead of buying one.........but I was, and still am, happy with my 325 so that might have something to do with it.

I await the abuse

Fancy seeing you here!

[E30M3SE]

daveco said:

Out of interest, all this talk of being able to get more hp easily out of the 2.5...would this apply to the I6 2.5 as well (E30/E36/E46 derivatives)?

Too general a question, they didn't all run thre same engines,

E30 M20, Binning the AFM and running a piigyback ECU will see you gain approx 10hp for 500-600ish.

E36 M50/52, There's an intake manifold and throttle body mod on the M52 which is easily accessable and improves power.

E46 M52/54

[Gompo]

J4CKO said:

Think this may be the next Mk1 Escort, using the M3 as a barometer as the special models always go up first, RS 1800, 2000, Mexico etc and even old 1.1 Pop 2 doors are worth decent money, the BMW is RWD, has competition pedigree and is getting scarce, people will be building some pretty special E30's with the remainders, repairing utter bins and sticking more powerful engines in.

The horse has bolted on M3 prices and 325i M sports, so my tip is cooking E30's, dont know why I havent seen that before.


Example,

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BMW-E30-classic-320-ise-...

While I agree and often thought similar, I doubt they will replicate the Mk1 (and Mk2) appreciation to the same extent. Why? Because there's still the E36, E46 (and E9x to some extent) which still follow a similar ethos. Maybe in 20 years I suppose, it does seem that in the last 3-4 years BMW '02s have begun appreciating at an inflated rate.

[falkster]

Bodie390 said:

Here's mine -



And with it's baby brother, but my personal favourite over the M3 -



I always wanted the E30 M3, I bought my 325 back in 1994 and always wanted to upgrade but never got round to it.

Several years later after restoring the 325 and realising I had nothing to do with myself, I bought one before I got out priced.

I truly believe I should of left the M3 as my hero instead of buying one.........but I was, and still am, happy with my 325 so that might have something to do with it.

I await the abuse

But being a humous exual you like the feel of the throbbing six rather than a screaming four plus you do drive it like a nancy - I'm sure I dusted you in the ML.

[pSyCoSiS]

ONE OF MY ALL TIME DREAM CARS - EVER !!!!

Love it.

I know it isn't that fast compared to modern machinery, but with a chassis like that and those looks, WHO CARES?!

Never driven one, but have been in one when I was at uni a few years ago... EPIC MACHINE.

I think it is one of the best looking cars ever made. Silly comparison, but I collect 1/18 scale model cars... I have a 1/18 scale E30 M3 Evolution by Autoart and also a 991 Porsche 91 Turbo by UT Models. I put them side to side, and honestly, the M3 just looked so much better.

I love the angry front end, the flared wheel arches, boxed looks and a no-nonsense, in your face stance. Has BMW made a better looking car since? NO and they NEVER WILL!

I could have bought a Macau Blue one for under 4k in 2005 - that's all the dealer thought it was worth - someone got there before me, and I have regretted it ever since!!

[pSyCoSiS]

W108 said:

Not with you Chris on the Cabrio (just my preference) but in all other respects: bob on. Enjoyed the article.

When pondering an E30 M3 my mind always wanders to the 2.7 Alpina. I've never driven one so I must say that I've no clue if it is truly comparable, but I like the idea.


As an aside, where are the "bubbly panels"? Adverts says "no rust on the car".

Never driven an E30 M3, but have given some beans in a 1987 E30 C2 2.7 Alpina Coupe. They are two totally different cars, but the Alpina was quicker. Lovely sound from the howling straight six, and six branch manifold.

They are worth a bit of money, but nowhere near the residuals of the M3s!

[pSyCoSiS]

MarJay said:

Yep, the E36 M3 (particularly the Evo) Is a superior car in almost every way. Why spend new Porsche money on an old Beemer, when you can spend Old Beemer money on an Old Beemer, and have something that will blow away anything short of a Porsche.

E36 M3 Evo Saloon (with a black interior) for me please. Then, I'll go to a breakers yard and change all of the ///M trim for ordinary E36 trim. I'll keep the mirrors and the rims, because people upgrade to these anyway. Then I'll remove the ///M badge and replace it with a 316i badge.

Then I'll have some fun! :-)

It's still not an E30 M3 though, is it?

We all know that E36 M3s are quicker, but that's not the point. Everyone has an e36 trying to be an M3, whereas you hardly ever see that on an E30...

[pSyCoSiS]

E30M3SE said:

Oh my!

[pSyCoSiS]

J4CKO said:

16 grand is a lot of money, out of the reach of most of us but there are still a lot of E30's about, I am sure that 1500's worth of semi Roadworthy 325, full suspension refresh with Poly bushes, some decent aftermarket brakes, engine fettle or perhaps transplant etc and you could have a really nice approximation, obviously paying attention to what BMW did to the M3, should imagine there were a few changes like steering racks and other specifics but nothing is impossible and I reckon you could make something as good if not better, ok it will never be an M3 or as valuable but I reckon it could be pretty good.

I bought the E30 325i SOTW from April last year.

Still got it and it sill puts a smile on my face every time i drive it. And to think I only paid 800 for it!

That's almost stealing it!

[pSyCoSiS]

pSyCoSiS said:

I bought the E30 325i SOTW from April last year.

Still got it and it still puts a smile on my face every time i drive it. And to think I only paid 800 for it!

That's almost stealing it!

[Johnboy Mac]

pSyCoSiS said:

That's almost stealing it!

It is really, some value too. Have you done a running report on it? If not you should do and shame us who spend away to much money on old cars

[pSyCoSiS]

Johnboy Mac said:

It is really, some value too. Have you done a running report on it? If not you should do and shame us who spend away to much money on old cars

I will do. To be honest, I have been so busy that I've not even had the chance to track it!

But, I'm currently living in Milton Keynes, and the only time I love those damn roundabouts is in the evening when I am hammering her around them!

[Legacywr]

E30M3SE said:

On Ebay.. how much do we think it will sell for?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/330701716686?ssPageName=...