RE: Dual-clutch Clio RS: the defence

[TameRacingDriver]

Given the scare stories about audis DSG system I'm not sure I would trust a Renault with a similar system when it gets older.

[Gary C]

BS75 said:

heebeegeetee said:

Gary C said:

BS75 said:

It's sad that the 'art' of driving a manual (because that's exactly what it is: an art) is lost on so many people.

Too true.

I'm sorry but I think that post is a 100% bullst. It's describing the driving of a car that is easy to drive, on the public road. The idea that a dip of a pedal at the wrong time would send the car into a big slide, is utter bullst.

Thanks for your polite and considered response.

Trolls have never been known for being polite.

[Mr2Mike]

Gary C said:

Trolls have never been known for being polite.

Exactly. This particular one refuses to believe you could get brakes to fade on a public road, and spent a long arguing against what almost everyone knew to be a fact.

[nickfrog]

Dipping the clutch is often actually the quickest way to light up the rear tyres of a Caterham for instance when a sufficient amount of lock is on. Which still doesn't mean that you can't change gears mid-corner...

[TameRacingDriver]

Surely dipping the clutch mid-corner is *almost* the equivalent of lifting off mid corner, and lift off oversteer definitely exists.....

[heebeegeetee]

Mr2Mike said:

Exactly. This particular one refuses to believe you could get brakes to fade on a public road, and spent a long arguing against what almost everyone knew to be a fact.

I'm standing by that one as well. Brake fade, in the UK? What do you think they're doing in the alps, with proper roads in proper temperatures? If brakes are fading in the uk they must be completely falling apart in the Alps. There has to be something drastically wrong for someone to fade their disc brakes in the UK.

BS75 said:

Thanks for your polite and considered response. Not being a driving god, and having spun a car off a track once or twice during my then inexperienced yoof I can state quite categorically that pressing the clutch at the wrong time in a wet bend CAN unsettle a car enough to provoke a ruddy great slide. It's less bullst and more experience (of the Anglesey infield passing me the wrong way).

Admittedly I wasn't driving Fred Flintstone's pre-1955 jalopy (feet were firmly inside the vehicle at all times) but I still found the car rather involving all the same.

Similarly, said MX5 with its 14" tyres was very quick to throw itself into a slide under similar albeit slower conditions on the public road if I was cack-handed with it.

The point is, it was FUN. Semi-autos are not fun. And when a sporty renault really only has fun going for it, I just think fitting a semi-auto to it because the gearchanges are 0.3s faster is a crap trade-off.

Ok, you're talking about Anglesey and I'm talking about the public road. I'm sorry but I just don't accept that changing gear is such a science that one wrong shift or declutch can have you off.

I'm no driving god and I have had my fair share of moments including at Anglesey too, but I don't accept the scenario of driving on the limit to the degree that unless you know the science of gear changing you're gonna die. I agree that good gear changing is a knack, but to say it's an art is a great exaggeration imo.

Some thought needs to go into which cars we're talking about here - In an MX5 you can drop the roof on a sunny day and enjoy the air and scenery, and the fact that you're driving a good car. In a hot hatch (a genre I love, btw) you;ll always be in a Clio or a Pug or whatever - their raison d'etre is to pedal as quickly as possible on a great road, so I'm struggling to see why you'd want a slow stick shift in such a car. Why not have drum brakes as well and then we can practice the art of avoiding brake fade?

[TameRacingDriver]

heebeegeetee said:

Mr2Mike said:

Exactly. This particular one refuses to believe you could get brakes to fade on a public road, and spent a long arguing against what almost everyone knew to be a fact.

I'm standing by that one as well. Brake fade, in the UK? What do you think they're doing in the alps, with proper roads in proper temperatures? If brakes are fading in the uk they must be completely falling apart in the Alps. There has to be something drastically wrong for someone to fade their disc brakes in the UK.

Quite easy in a lot of cars to be quite honest especially if you drive with some gusto.

Fabia vRS TDI on standard equipment suffered from epic brake fade on some twisty B-roads. Not hard to see why. 1300+ KG of car, with lots of torque to ensure you can be going quite fast when you get to the next bend, repeat lots of times, brake fade city. If it wasn't the case, why did so many owners upgrade to 312mm Octavia brakes?

Clio 182 - A bad wheel design mean't not much brake ventilation through the wheels. Yes it could be cured with upgraded pads, but on standard equipment, they faded.

Driven any BMWs fast?

Or maybe your definition of hooning and mine are different? Or maybe you don't have many roads with corners, or B-roads?

[heebeegeetee]

TameRacingDriver said:

Quite easy in a lot of cars to be quite honest especially if you drive with some gusto.

Fabia vRS TDI on standard equipment suffered from epic brake fade on some twisty B-roads. Not hard to see why. 1300+ KG of car, with lots of torque to ensure you can be going quite fast when you get to the next bend, repeat lots of times, brake fade city. If it wasn't the case, why did so many owners upgrade to 312mm Octavia brakes?

Clio 182 - A bad wheel design mean't not much brake ventilation through the wheels. Yes it could be cured with upgraded pads, but on standard equipment, they faded.

Driven any BMWs fast?

Or maybe your definition of hooning and mine are different? Or maybe you don't have many roads with corners, or B-roads?

But what do you mean by fast, give that we're talking road cars? On road, where you can't take full racing lines because you can't see round the corner, on roads where you don't (no matter what you might think) commit 100% because you know might kill someone around the corner. If you're a tame racing driver you know that you don't drive on track anything like you do on the road, so what is fast?

I road rallied for a number of years and I would suggest that it is only on these events that you truly drive a road car fast - ie, pretty much flat out, absolutely as fast as you can possibly can, at night on the type of road where you're not going to encounter other road users, amongst some 70 other competitors doing the same, and fade isn't an issue. In daylight you will not drive at the same pace.

For my sins, I've at least put myself up against the clock and certainly in road rallying, in road cars, the clock didn't reveal any particular issues with my speed, relative to the others. I once managed to all but set fire to a set of brakes on my trusty old MGB on a night rally in the french alps, and they didn't fade.

But forget about me, answer my earlier question? In the UK, where I believe there is not one single road that has more than two consecutive hairpin bends, if we're getting brake fade what is happening to those who like to press on and live in that enormous region known as the alps, where 30deg temperatures are not uncommon and where so many hair pin bends can be encountered that you can find yourself getting bored with them - how on earth are they managing?

[TameRacingDriver]

heebeegeetee said:

But what do you mean by fast, give that we're talking road cars? On road, where you can't take full racing lines because you can't see round the corner, on roads where you don't (no matter what you might think) commit 100% because you know might kill someone around the corner. If you're a tame racing driver you know that you don't drive on track anything like you do on the road, so what is fast?

I road rallied for a number of years and I would suggest that it is only on these events that you truly drive a road car fast - ie, pretty much flat out, absolutely as fast as you can possibly can, at night on the type of road where you're not going to encounter other road users, amongst some 70 other competitors doing the same, and fade isn't an issue. In daylight you will not drive at the same pace.

For my sins, I've at least put myself up against the clock and certainly in road rallying, in road cars, the clock didn't reveal any particular issues with my speed, relative to the others. I once managed to all but set fire to a set of brakes on my trusty old MGB on a night rally in the french alps, and they didn't fade.

But forget about me, answer my earlier question? In the UK, where I believe there is not one single road that has more than two consecutive hairpin bends, if we're getting brake fade what is happening to those who like to press on and live in that enormous region known as the alps, where 30deg temperatures are not uncommon and where so many hair pin bends can be encountered that you can find yourself getting bored with them - how on earth are they managing?

Not talking anything particularly extreme to be fair, like you say there's a limit to how fast you can go on the road without risk to life or license. It really didn't take much.

Good example. There's a road near where I live, and it literally is 400 yard straights interrupted by 90 degree bends, and if you're driving quickly down there, you are on the brakes a LOT.

It's by no means the only seriously twisty road around here either.

I'll agree though on most roads (by which I mean sweeping A-roads or just urban roads in general) then you won't or shouldn't be approaching those limits, but add some hills and corners to a deserted country road, and its not difficult to overheat the brakes on many cars, even a lot of "sporty" ones.

If you subjected said brakes to the kind of abuse you refer to when doing your road rallying, then never mind brake fade, you would probably have them on fire!

[Gary C]

BS75 said:

heebeegeetee said:

Gary C said:

BS75 said:

It's sad that the 'art' of driving a manual (because that's exactly what it is: an art) is lost on so many people.

Too true.

I'm sorry but I think that post is a 100% bullst. It's describing the driving of a car that is easy to drive, on the public road. The idea that a dip of a pedal at the wrong time would send the car into a big slide, is utter bullst.

Thanks for your polite and considered response.

Trolls have never been known for being polite.

[Hoygo]

A real pic of the interiors of the actual car:



Orders started today in France at 24,995 Euros,which is about 21k.

I think the starting price might be 3-4 grand cheaper on here as the other R.S cars were always cheaper in UK compared to France (Clio 200,Meg 265),might be because the UK ones have less options to start with and the French ones are almost filled with all options.

[Butter Face]

Shift paddles look just awesome.

Edited by Butter Face on Tuesday 12th February 19:04

[nickfrog]

TameRacingDriver said:

Surely dipping the clutch mid-corner is *almost* the equivalent of lifting off mid corner, and lift off oversteer definitely exists.....

There's nothing wrong in lifting mid-corner providing it's done smoothly/progressively to minimise weight transfer. Even on the limit of lateral grip it may well mean you lose the back end but at least you'll be expecting it and may catch it. I'd rather that than terminally understeering in the ARMCO because I have mis-judged my apex speed (or because a lorry decided to overtake a coffin dodger just when I reached the convoy mid-corner on a dual carriage-way). Obviously using the throttle as an on-off switch will lead to disaster indeed...we've all done it !

[heebeegeetee]

TameRacingDriver said:

If you subjected said brakes to the kind of abuse you refer to when doing your road rallying, then never mind brake fade, you would probably have them on fire!

They nearly did on the MGB once in France, I've never seen so much smoke off a set of brakes in my life! I overheard people talking about us at breakfast next morning "you couldn't see the car" etc etc. But I can honestly say that as were coming downhill and I was braking hard into downhill hairpins with gay abandon, not once did the brake pedal feel like it was getting longer.

I'm sorry and and all that and I'm not looking to rain on anyone's parade here; I've given the matter some more thought and I still really don't see that brake fade can be used as a proof of driving fast or anything other than something is wrong. Either the driver is braking far too much or there is water in the brake lines or the pads and/or discs are crap (probably aftermarket)... in other words there is something wrong somewhere.

And no, I wouldn't want paddle-shift in my MGB, but I would in something quick and modern. A hydraulic handbrake would be nice too.

[Gary C]

heebeegeetee said:

I road rallied for a number of years and I would suggest that it is only on these events that you truly drive a road car fast - ie, pretty much flat out, absolutely as fast as you can possibly can, at night on the type of road where you're not going to encounter other road users, amongst some 70 other competitors doing the same, and fade isn't an issue. In daylight you will not drive at the same pace.

Now they used to be fun events, and with mintex pads I never had fade once when road rallying. Cheap halfrauds pads are often the culprit of brake fade, but I did have a polo who's brakes were epically bad and could overheat and fade coming off the M6 down a slip road, they still worked but needed progressively more effort, not a nice feeling.

Now pad knock off is scary.

Edited by Gary C on Wednesday 13th February 10:05

[Butter Face]

Back on topic, UK specs and prices being announced tomorrow.

French brochure if anyone is interested.

http://www.fichier-pdf.fr/2013/01/15/clio-rs-16p-f...

[nickfrog]

Weight is 1279 kgs but that's "poids en ordre de marche" so I don't know if it's the one with or without a 75kg driver. I assume without if it's DIN but the brochure doesn't say.

EDIT : it would look like it's 1279 kgs CE so 1204 kgs DIN (w/out driver) so that would only be 64 kgs more than a MINI Cooper S despite 5-dr, heavier tranny, bigger car. Not bad actually, if confirmed.

Edited by nickfrog on Wednesday 13th February 13:29

[Gary C]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Not on the 991 it isnt. Lots of concern about the electric ps. Also torque vectoring and active engine mounts cant be 'turned off' on equipped cars

Edited by Gary C on Wednesday 13th February 21:19

[nickfrog]

It's still mainly about the driver, irrespective of drivers' aids. Put your average performance car driver on a circuit compared to your average track driver and you're looking at 5 to 10 seconds difference minimum, with no lights on the dashboard for the second bloke and xmas tree for the first one.

[Gary C]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

I think there is a BIG difference between the steering between my 911 (no pas) and the 991. How it can call it ' direct mechanical control' when the electric pas defines the response and feel of the system and is computer controlled?