RE: Jaguar F-Type versus Porsche 911
Discussion
benzpassion said:
you silly sods really are mental. You actually believe the sh!t beamed into your houses 24/7, by the BBC et al, propagandising for a economic recovery in Britain, and a 'march of the makers' rebound in UK's manufacturing base.
Lesson: you can't argue with simpletons.
I am sorry for being a simpleton, the post here was originally about the F Type vs 911 - it seems to have been hijacked by a German! Please, no one mention the War. Lesson: you can't argue with simpletons.
To balance things a little - here are some verified figures related to JLR -
Jaguar Land Rover,sold 34,877 vehicles during the first month of 2013, an increase of 32% versus the same period last year.
January sales were up across every major market with sales up 74% in China, 46% in Asia Pacific, 33% in the UK, 24% in North America and 10% in Europe.
In January, Land Rover sold 29,118 vehicles (up 31%), with increased sales of Freelander (up 57%), Range Rover (up 52% including prior model), Range Rover Evoque (up 32%), Range Rover Sport (up 17%) and Land Rover Discovery (up 14%). Land Rover sales were up in all major markets with record January sales in several, including the UK, USA and Germany.
Jaguar sold 5,759 vehicles in January (up by 40%), with increased sales of the XJ (up 70%) and the XF (up 37%), reflecting strong sales of the recently introduced XF Sportbrake as well as all-wheel drive and smaller engine options. Jaguar sales were up in all major markets.
I think they must be doing something right and the F Type is in my opinion, well priced vs. the overall range of rivals it will have in the market - 911 Cab (cheaper), Boxster S (more expensive), Mercedes SL (cheaper) , Aston V8 S (Cheaper), Audi R8 V8 Spyder (Cheaper)etc.
benzpassion said:
TVRWannabee said:
In my work for the shippers of most of the UK car brands, especially JLR, I can tell you that , despite some of the twaddle spouted here, they are experiencing a massive increase in cars being exported.
- total utter Bullsh!t.Who says? The Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders, the industry's body; the horse's mouth so to speak:
https://www.smmt.co.uk/2013/02/steady-start-for-ca...
UK car exports declined 4% in January compared to January 2012.
'a massive increase in cars being exported' - a total fabrication and blatant propaganda.
UK commercial vehicle exports fell a massive 37% in January compared to Jan 2012.
And to cap it all, UK engine exports fell by 10% in Jan, year on year.
Taken together, cars, commercials and engines, that's pretty much a collapse in exports, as opposed to the bullsh!t of a massive increase.
geezer said:
Things are very buoyant at JLR at the moment - and British car manufacturing generally. I can see the F Type only adding to this - no matter who we might think the competition might be.
you silly sods really are mental. You actually believe the sh!t beamed into your houses 24/7, by the BBC et al, propagandising for a economic recovery in Britain, and a 'march of the makers' rebound in UK's manufacturing base.Lesson: you can't argue with simpletons.
pb1695 said:
benzpassion said:
you silly sods really are mental. You actually believe the sh!t beamed into your houses 24/7, by the BBC et al, propagandising for a economic recovery in Britain, and a 'march of the makers' rebound in UK's manufacturing base.
Lesson: you can't argue with simpletons.
I am sorry for being a simpleton, the post here was originally about the F Type vs 911 - it seems to have been hijacked by a German! Please, no one mention the War. Lesson: you can't argue with simpletons.
To balance things a little - here are some verified figures related to JLR -
Jaguar Land Rover,sold 34,877 vehicles during the first month of 2013, an increase of 32% versus the same period last year.
January sales were up across every major market with sales up 74% in China, 46% in Asia Pacific, 33% in the UK, 24% in North America and 10% in Europe.
In January, Land Rover sold 29,118 vehicles (up 31%), with increased sales of Freelander (up 57%), Range Rover (up 52% including prior model), Range Rover Evoque (up 32%), Range Rover Sport (up 17%) and Land Rover Discovery (up 14%). Land Rover sales were up in all major markets with record January sales in several, including the UK, USA and Germany.
Jaguar sold 5,759 vehicles in January (up by 40%), with increased sales of the XJ (up 70%) and the XF (up 37%), reflecting strong sales of the recently introduced XF Sportbrake as well as all-wheel drive and smaller engine options. Jaguar sales were up in all major markets.
I think they must be doing something right and the F Type is in my opinion, well priced vs. the overall range of rivals it will have in the market - 911 Cab (cheaper), Boxster S (more expensive), Mercedes SL (cheaper) , Aston V8 S (Cheaper), Audi R8 V8 Spyder (Cheaper)etc.
Amusingly, I have up until now been rather disengaged with the fortunes of JLR. Other than being broadly aware that they appear to be hiring a few people in the midlands and keeping some jobs safe, I was not really tuned in to the firm.
After reading this thread, I am now more impressed with JLR than I was before. If anything, I am more likely to check out JLR cars with a view to possible purchase than before. The thread has put JLR on my radar, in a positive way.
I am really liking an XF Sportbrake now. Thanks Benzpassion.
MyCC said:
I know the article is written comparing the F Type to the 911 but we cannot simply keep thinking that those in this market of car would only ever consider a 911 or this. The type of consumer who buys a 911 will most likely be very different to the typical profile of an F Type owner. For them style may well be more important than substance. Not saying the F Type lacks substance but they will most likely buy on looks alone. A lack of back seats won't even feature, neither will fuel consumption for these 'style-led' buyers and don't forget its the new kid on the bloke, for some this will be all that matters.
Regards,
My.CC.
I disagree.Regards,
My.CC.
I am likely in the market again in a few years time.
Last time round my shortlist was 997, XKR, V8 Vantage. I drove all three. I chose the Jaguar. Not because it was the "best sports car". That isn't the only buying decision. It has to be "good enough" for what I want, and the compromise from pure sport car gave me other things I wanted.
Next time, I suspect it'll be a similar shortlist, but swapping the XKR for the F (it fixes a few of the things I didn't like about the XKR). I will be seriously looking at both, and depending on the nuances of my lifestyle is at the time, how the car feels, handles, looks, will drive a choice, not just what it's like as a purist sports car. So it's absolutely a rival.
If people want a 911, they'll buy a 911 (what I did the first time round when I bought my 993). A lot of people want a fast, well sorted sports car or GT that looks good and wont have chosen what they want yet.
(apologies for actually talking about the cars).
benzpassion said:
TVRWannabee said:
In my work for the shippers of most of the UK car brands, especially JLR, I can tell you that , despite some of the twaddle spouted here, they are experiencing a massive increase in cars being exported.
- total utter Bullsh!t.Who says? The Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders, the industry's body; the horse's mouth so to speak:
https://www.smmt.co.uk/2013/02/steady-start-for-ca...
UK car exports declined 4% in January compared to January 2012.
'a massive increase in cars being exported' - a total fabrication and blatant propaganda.
UK commercial vehicle exports fell a massive 37% in January compared to Jan 2012.
And to cap it all, UK engine exports fell by 10% in Jan, year on year.
Taken together, cars, commercials and engines, that's pretty much a collapse in exports, as opposed to the bullsh!t of a massive increase.
geezer said:
Things are very buoyant at JLR at the moment - and British car manufacturing generally. I can see the F Type only adding to this - no matter who we might think the competition might be.
you silly sods really are mental. You actually believe the sh!t beamed into your houses 24/7, by the BBC et al, propagandising for a economic recovery in Britain, and a 'march of the makers' rebound in UK's manufacturing base.Lesson: you can't argue with simpletons.
benzpassion said:
TVRWannabee said:
In my work for the shippers of most of the UK car brands, especially JLR, I can tell you that , despite some of the twaddle spouted here, they are experiencing a massive increase in cars being exported.
- total utter BullWho says? The Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders, the industry's body; the horse's mouth so to speak:
https://www.smmt.co.uk/2013/02/steady-start-for-ca...
UK car exports declined 4% in January compared to January 2012.
'a massive increase in cars being exported' - a total fabrication and blatant propaganda.
UK commercial vehicle exports fell a massive 37% in January compared to Jan 2012.
And to cap it all, UK engine exports fell by 10% in Jan, year on year.
Taken together, cars, commercials and engines, that's pretty much a collapse in exports, as opposed to the bull of a massive increase.
geezer said:
Things are very buoyant at JLR at the moment - and British car manufacturing generally. I can see the F Type only adding to this - no matter who we might think the competition might be.
you silly sods really are mental. You actually believe the **** beamed into your houses 24/7, by the BBC et al, propagandising for a economic recovery in Britain, and a 'march of the makers' rebound in UK's manufacturing base.Lesson: you can't argue with simpletons.
Quote "Lesson: you can't argue with simpletons." Yes you can.
Thanks for the link to SMMT :-
- Car manufacturing rose 1.2% in January to 129,049 units.
- Strong domestic demand saw output of cars built for the UK market rise 26.1%.
- Of all cars produced in January, 79.1% were exported.
Independent analysts suggest that UK car manufacturing could grow a third bigger by 2016 with output approaching two million vehicles each year.
“UK car manufacturing grew modestly in January, up just 1.2% on the same period in 2012. Output is typically subdued in January as manufacturers extend holiday periods to upgrade plants and re-tool for new models,” said Mike Baunton, SMMT Interim Chief Executive. “Despite ongoing economic challenges, growing demand for UK-built products in emerging global markets coupled with major new investment is paving the way for a positive year for automotive manufacturing.”
I had started arguing the same side as benzpassion...not sure I want to now! 
Anyway, the F-Type is overweight (uses the V8 block for the V6 to save development cash, uses the XK platform to save development cash) and is very space-inefficient.
But:-
- it's not really a 911 competitor, no matter what they say.
- it IS a good looking, individual design. And I applaud JLR for that.
- it's unlikely to be a success as the V6 offers little the Boxster-S doesn't for a lot less cash, while the V8 is priced against some very established metal.
- the press, as usual, have been fawning over it (without a test-drive!) and parroting JLR press-releases verbatim. It's a Jaguar and worse, it's the "spiritual successor to the E-Type", so all common sense and lack of bias disappear out of the window so fast it's a wonder people don't get sucked out by the draft...
Anyway, the F-Type is overweight (uses the V8 block for the V6 to save development cash, uses the XK platform to save development cash) and is very space-inefficient.
But:-
- it's not really a 911 competitor, no matter what they say.
- it IS a good looking, individual design. And I applaud JLR for that.
- it's unlikely to be a success as the V6 offers little the Boxster-S doesn't for a lot less cash, while the V8 is priced against some very established metal.
- the press, as usual, have been fawning over it (without a test-drive!) and parroting JLR press-releases verbatim. It's a Jaguar and worse, it's the "spiritual successor to the E-Type", so all common sense and lack of bias disappear out of the window so fast it's a wonder people don't get sucked out by the draft...
Writing about a car such as the F-Type is always going to be a tricky one for we British press. We know this, though, and I for one will read what you're saying and try to be as objective as possible.
There will always be benchmarking and comparisons with cars; that Jaguar is prepared to mention the 911 shows the intent it has, I reckon. Which is in itself promising.
Proof will be in the driving, though - which, I'm sure, the chosen PH writer will do knowing they must justify everything they write to you guys. I can't wait to either read or write it!
My first F-Type experience certainly hinted at promise and potential: in April, the truth will out...
There will always be benchmarking and comparisons with cars; that Jaguar is prepared to mention the 911 shows the intent it has, I reckon. Which is in itself promising.
Proof will be in the driving, though - which, I'm sure, the chosen PH writer will do knowing they must justify everything they write to you guys. I can't wait to either read or write it!
My first F-Type experience certainly hinted at promise and potential: in April, the truth will out...
richardaucock said:
Writing about a car such as the F-Type is always going to be a tricky one for we British press. We know this, though, and I for one will read what you're saying and try to be as objective as possible.
There will always be benchmarking and comparisons with cars; that Jaguar is prepared to mention the 911 shows the intent it has, I reckon. Which is in itself promising.
Proof will be in the driving, though - which, I'm sure, the chosen PH writer will do knowing they must justify everything they write to you guys. I can't wait to either read or write it!
My first F-Type experience certainly hinted at promise and potential: in April, the truth will out...
Within reason it doesn't matter how it drives as long as it's competent.There will always be benchmarking and comparisons with cars; that Jaguar is prepared to mention the 911 shows the intent it has, I reckon. Which is in itself promising.
Proof will be in the driving, though - which, I'm sure, the chosen PH writer will do knowing they must justify everything they write to you guys. I can't wait to either read or write it!
My first F-Type experience certainly hinted at promise and potential: in April, the truth will out...
The vast majority of Porsche 911 owners don't buy one because it's 0.2s faster in some meaningless performance test, and 95% of them wouldn't have the skill or opportunity to exploit it's capabilitiies anyway. They buy it because it's a Porsche 911.
Even more so with cars like Aston Martin etc.
What will matter is what sort of image the press decide to give the car. Given that they already seem determined to pigeon hole the car before it's launched it could go either way.
mph said:
Within reason it doesn't matter how it drives as long as it's competent.
The vast majority of Porsche 911 owners don't buy one because it's 0.2s faster in some meaningless performance test, and 95% of them wouldn't have the skill or opportunity to exploit it's capabilitiies anyway. They buy it because it's a Porsche 911.
Even more so with cars like Aston Martin etc.
What will matter is what sort of image the press decide to give the car. Given that they already seem determined to pigeon hole the car before it's launched it could go either way.
The moment it is know a manufacturer is going to bring a new car to market, whether replacing an existing model or some they they haven't offered before, the press, PHers, whoever, will pigeon hole it. Look at the new Alfa 4C... Another car slaughtered for the having the wrong price, wrong engine, the wrong look, being an Alfa it will fall apart though Maserati are actually building it. The vast majority of Porsche 911 owners don't buy one because it's 0.2s faster in some meaningless performance test, and 95% of them wouldn't have the skill or opportunity to exploit it's capabilitiies anyway. They buy it because it's a Porsche 911.
Even more so with cars like Aston Martin etc.
What will matter is what sort of image the press decide to give the car. Given that they already seem determined to pigeon hole the car before it's launched it could go either way.
The F-Type will be reviewed, potential customers will read reviews, get test drives and will buy or not. Some will not even think about the 991 at all. It might be the benchmark but believe or not, as good as it is, there are plenty of people who just don't like it. I know the Focus is a great car but I don't want one.
At the end of the day the market place will decide whether the Jag succeeds or not. Some will buy it because it's not a Porsche! In spite of what has been said here I wouldn't be surprised if plenty find homes... In fact, all manner of cars have been hammered on here, fail, no one will buy etc... How many have actually been that total failure?
Of all the places that nails this piece's conceit of the overpriced, overweight, XK-in-drag F-type being a genuine competitor for the mighty 911, let alone the much cheaper Boxster/Cayman, the very last one on earth one would expect would be Autocar, AKA JLR's house magazine:
'I feel sorry for Jaguar, though, because unless the new F-Type is two-times-off-the-dial good to drive, it doesn’t stand a chance against a car as well resolved, or as downright brilliant, as the latest Cayman. And that’s before you even mention that it costs 10 grand more in the first place, even in entry-level form.
http://www.autocar.co.uk/blogs/new-cars/why-exactl...
Steve (Sutcliffe)'s either had a sudden attack of journalistic, independent integrity, after all these years, and hence will be picking his P45 up on Monday from Rupert, or entirely more likely, the Cayman is that good, so blindingly, other-worldly, blind men on Mars can see how good it is good, where another 'Britain Smashes the Krauts Again' banner headline, a la the 'world-beater' XF beating the 5-series, A6, E-Class, 'new 2.7 t Lightweight £100k Range Rover Best Car Ever in Known Universe', and other suchlike nonsense, would be laughed at by even Pistonheads' readership - erm, perhaps! - that they have realised that they need to soften up and let down gently the loyal, Brit-worshipping, brainwashed to within an inch of their frontal lobe lobotomised readers, for the novel shock of a news article appearing in Autocar in a couple of weeks time reading merely: 'Brilliant New Excellent Value for Money Jag F-Type hands mild thrashing to Overpriced Dangerously Lightweight Beetle-in-drag!'.
'I feel sorry for Jaguar, though, because unless the new F-Type is two-times-off-the-dial good to drive, it doesn’t stand a chance against a car as well resolved, or as downright brilliant, as the latest Cayman. And that’s before you even mention that it costs 10 grand more in the first place, even in entry-level form.
http://www.autocar.co.uk/blogs/new-cars/why-exactl...
Steve (Sutcliffe)'s either had a sudden attack of journalistic, independent integrity, after all these years, and hence will be picking his P45 up on Monday from Rupert, or entirely more likely, the Cayman is that good, so blindingly, other-worldly, blind men on Mars can see how good it is good, where another 'Britain Smashes the Krauts Again' banner headline, a la the 'world-beater' XF beating the 5-series, A6, E-Class, 'new 2.7 t Lightweight £100k Range Rover Best Car Ever in Known Universe', and other suchlike nonsense, would be laughed at by even Pistonheads' readership - erm, perhaps! - that they have realised that they need to soften up and let down gently the loyal, Brit-worshipping, brainwashed to within an inch of their frontal lobe lobotomised readers, for the novel shock of a news article appearing in Autocar in a couple of weeks time reading merely: 'Brilliant New Excellent Value for Money Jag F-Type hands mild thrashing to Overpriced Dangerously Lightweight Beetle-in-drag!'.
Edited by benzpassion on Friday 22 February 19:28
I'm not sure you get it. People are only reading what you write now to laugh at you. We understand that you hate JLR, we understand you won't tell us why. We understand you love adding your references and quotes to try to further prove that your toxic hatred of Jaguars and Land Rovers has some substance or basis in reality.
But everything you type now just looks like biased, fanboy, rubbish. It's not a balanced argument because nobody's bothering arguing with you and you're not mentally balanced. Get help.
But everything you type now just looks like biased, fanboy, rubbish. It's not a balanced argument because nobody's bothering arguing with you and you're not mentally balanced. Get help.
Quote
"'I feel sorry for Jaguar, though, because unless the new F-Type is two-times-off-the-dial good to drive, it doesn’t stand a chance against a car as well resolved, or as downright brilliant, as the latest Cayman. And that’s before you even mention that it costs 10 grand more in the first place, even in entry-level form."
Surely this is where the debate started in the first place ie, F-Type versus 911. Half the argument being, the lack of back seats in the Jag, yet you are now quoting a comparison between a convertible and Coupe....
"'I feel sorry for Jaguar, though, because unless the new F-Type is two-times-off-the-dial good to drive, it doesn’t stand a chance against a car as well resolved, or as downright brilliant, as the latest Cayman. And that’s before you even mention that it costs 10 grand more in the first place, even in entry-level form."
Surely this is where the debate started in the first place ie, F-Type versus 911. Half the argument being, the lack of back seats in the Jag, yet you are now quoting a comparison between a convertible and Coupe....
tony wright said:
Half the argument being, the lack of back seats in the Jag, yet you are now quoting a comparison between a convertible and Coupe....
Like the Boxster/Cayman platform the F-type will release the soft top first then the coupe, perhaps it was the forth coming F-type coupe that Sutters was refering too. Just a quick apology. I forecast a downgrade of UK. I humbly admit I was wrong.
...not about the UK being bust, but about which one of the credit rating agencies downgrading the UK from AAA it would be!:
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-02-22/farewell-...
Add this to near record fuel prices in UK/US, and UK petrol sales being at all time low in January, and I'm more convinced than ever that launching extremely heavy and thirsty vehicles that only Croesus could afford is a sure-fire winning plan!
...not about the UK being bust, but about which one of the credit rating agencies downgrading the UK from AAA it would be!:
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-02-22/farewell-...
Add this to near record fuel prices in UK/US, and UK petrol sales being at all time low in January, and I'm more convinced than ever that launching extremely heavy and thirsty vehicles that only Croesus could afford is a sure-fire winning plan!
benzpassion said:
Just a quick apology. I forecast a downgrade of UK. I humbly admit I was wrong.
...not about the UK being bust, but about which one of the credit rating agencies downgrading the UK from AAA it would be!:
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-02-22/farewell-...
Add this to near record fuel prices in UK/US, and UK petrol sales being at all time low in January, and I'm more convinced than ever that launching extremely heavy and thirsty vehicles that only Croesus could afford is a sure-fire winning plan!
...not about the UK being bust, but about which one of the credit rating agencies downgrading the UK from AAA it would be!:
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-02-22/farewell-...
Add this to near record fuel prices in UK/US, and UK petrol sales being at all time low in January, and I'm more convinced than ever that launching extremely heavy and thirsty vehicles that only Croesus could afford is a sure-fire winning plan!
Dominant sales are in markets where fuel is cheaper.
Credit downgrade doesn't categorically lead to higher costs. See the US.
Why would domestic borrowing costs impact a foreign funded business?
What would happen to Sterling in a downgrade?
ZeroHedge is a bear media.
Are Porsche buyers the same group as Jaguar buyers?
Is fuel in the UK actually expensive? Most drivers have huge elasticity on this cost.
Is fuel cost actually relevant above a set purchase level?
Credit downgrade doesn't categorically lead to higher costs. See the US.
Why would domestic borrowing costs impact a foreign funded business?
What would happen to Sterling in a downgrade?
ZeroHedge is a bear media.
Are Porsche buyers the same group as Jaguar buyers?
Is fuel in the UK actually expensive? Most drivers have huge elasticity on this cost.
Is fuel cost actually relevant above a set purchase level?
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