RE: Megane 265 Cup and Subaru BRZ: Fast vs Fun

[MC Bodge]

Technomatt said:

MC Bodge said:

Technomatt said:

What did it for me was after the GT86 went around the Top Gear track and Clarkson pinned the time on the board, he nearly did his back in having to bend down so far.

Why does that bother you?

It bothers me in the same way as the GT86's 0-60 time of 7.6 sec does.

And in what way is that?

[Technomatt]

MC Bodge said:

Technomatt said:

MC Bodge said:

Technomatt said:

What did it for me was after the GT86 went around the Top Gear track and Clarkson pinned the time on the board, he nearly did his back in having to bend down so far.

Why does that bother you?

It bothers me in the same way as the GT86's 0-60 time of 7.6 sec does.

And in what way is that?

What also bothers me is that smug aura of high brow thinking surrounding a car that is nothing really that new or special.

[braddo]

Technomatt said:

It bothers me in the same way as the GT86's 0-60 time of 7.6 sec does.

The official number appears conservative. I know they're renowned for getting the lowest numbers but Car&Driver got 6.4 secs 0-60 out of it.

Mentioned in a feature with the Cayman:

"Were you able to launch the FR-S closer to its lofty 6400-rpm torque peak without the tires losing traction, the 0-to-60-mph time (6.4 seconds) would undoubtedly be quicker. "

http://www.caranddriver.com/comparisons/2013-scion...

[st4]

aspen said:

Picked up my GT86 on Wednesday after having a great few years in a Clio 200 Cup. The GT86 is more fun by far. It reminds me a lot of my old DC2.

I'm yet to drive a Megane 250/265 but outright pace doesn't interest me. The 86 is more than fast enough for the majority of my driving but it's fun 100% of the time!

This^^^^

Its not a slow car, even its power to weight ratio and performance of 0 to 60 in under 8secs makes for a brisk car.

Its designed to be a car you have to use the power of, they could have dropped a 300bhp flat 4 turbo in there, or a 3litre flat 6 (oh how I wish they had) and upped the wheel size and added more grip. This would make it more a Porsche Cayman rival in price and performance.

No, this is a cheap way into a RWD driving car, probably for an older buyer than those looking at the FWD hatches.

The main worry for the Toyotaru's is BMW's M135i which costs more, but delivers probably most of the involvement, in a more practical body shell with a lot more performance. I personally am considering a M135i as a future purchase

[s m]

braddo said:

Mentioned in a feature with the Cayman:

"Were you able to launch the FR-S closer to its lofty 6400-rpm torque peak without the tires losing traction, the 0-to-60-mph time (6.4 seconds) would undoubtedly be quicker. "

http://www.caranddriver.com/comparisons/2013-scion...

Not a gripe at the GT86 in particular....but that's a strange thing to say. There's often a balancing act to be performed between wheelspin and avoiding 'bogging down' in most rwd cars launching from a standstill. That Shelby GT500 off TG last month "would undoubtedly be quicker.....without the tires losing traction"

[V8RX7]

s m said:

Not a gripe at the GT86 in particular....but that's a strange thing to say. There's often a balancing act to be performed between wheelspin and avoiding 'bogging down' in most rwd cars

Only low power RWD cars bog down.

With high power cars it's generally a balancing act between a squeal and huge amounts of wheelspin.

Although weight transfer helps RWD cars it's usually the high power FWD cars that struggle to find grip on hard launches.

4WD turbos also tend to bog down (or blow gearboxes)

[s m]

V8RX7 said:

s m said:

Not a gripe at the GT86 in particular....but that's a strange thing to say. There's often a balancing act to be performed between wheelspin and avoiding 'bogging down' in most rwd cars

Only low power RWD cars bog down.

With high power cars it's generally a balancing act between a squeal and huge amounts of wheelspin.

Although weight transfer helps RWD cars it's usually the high power FWD cars that struggle to find grip on hard launches.

4WD turbos also tend to bog down (or blow gearboxes)

The rwd cars would usually all be quicker "without losing traction" though which was my point. It's not something peculiar to the GT86/BRZ

[VeeFource]

st4 said:

aspen said:

Picked up my GT86 on Wednesday after having a great few years in a Clio 200 Cup. The GT86 is more fun by far. It reminds me a lot of my old DC2.

I'm yet to drive a Megane 250/265 but outright pace doesn't interest me. The 86 is more than fast enough for the majority of my driving but it's fun 100% of the time!

This^^^^

Its not a slow car, even its power to weight ratio and performance of 0 to 60 in under 8secs makes for a brisk car.

Its designed to be a car you have to use the power of, they could have dropped a 300bhp flat 4 turbo in there, or a 3litre flat 6 (oh how I wish they had) and upped the wheel size and added more grip. This would make it more a Porsche Cayman rival in price and performance.

No, this is a cheap way into a RWD driving car, probably for an older buyer than those looking at the FWD hatches.

The main worry for the Toyotaru's is BMW's M135i which costs more, but delivers probably most of the involvement, in a more practical body shell with a lot more performance. I personally am considering a M135i as a future purchase

The GT86 vs a 6 cylinder 1 series (though probably more the 130i/125i) is what I'm most interested in too. The two things I enjoy most about a performance car are both feelings of involvement and of capability, and for me the Renault's (and even to some extent the 135i's) capability is that little bit too high to feel really involved with on the public roads.

But as with a lot of PHers to me the GT86 does come across on paper as just a little bit short on the capability front so while it no doubt feels incredibly involving at moderate speeds, the niggle is that it lacks in the capability department. I've yet to drive one so I can't say if that's really the case but certainly from most of the reviews (Evo's aside) it seems it isn't. So until I do get to drive one I'll be wondering whether the GT86 can tick both those boxes or whether something a bit more capable like a 125i might be a better all round car. My E36 328i seems to strike about the right balance (for it's age) so in the near future I'll be on the hunt for a the modern equivalent ideally.

One of the ultimate machines to tick both involvement and the capability boxes is a motorcycle. They're like a GT86 in the bends (no biker really cares if he's overtaken by a skyline mid bend as we know who's really having all the fun) but then we get to enjoy the immense capability on the straights ...and all at 50mpg woop woop!

One thing I do love about the GT86 is that underlines the fact that capability on it's own is nothing and also is of no interest to the 0-60/lap time brigade droning on about how one car's the bestist due to it being 0.2 seconds quicker (see Fifth Gear for that!). But while I've no doubts the GT86 can always be relied upon to get you up to the speeds where all the involvement lies in the dry (maybe the wet poses a bit too much involvement?), what about the times you're coming up to your favourite twisties which lie just beyond the standard Skoda Felicia pootling in front at a steady 26mph. Or the time Mr pink shirt wearing sales rep wants to try it on at the lights in his diesel TT.. something only too fun to happen in a potent 1 series!

[V8RX7]

VeeFource said:

while I've no doubts the GT86 can always be relied upon to get you up to the speeds where all the involvement lies in the dry (maybe the wet poses a bit too much involvement?), what about the times you're coming up to your favourite twisties which lie just beyond the standard Skoda Felicia pootling in front at a steady 26mph. Or the time Mr pink shirt wearing sales rep wants to try it on at the lights in his diesel TT.. something only too fun to happen in a potent 1 series!

That is precisely why I supercharged my MX5.

I have no doubt turbo / supercharger kits will be available for the GT86 too (albeit they are likely to cost upwards of £3k )

[otolith]

Didn't try overtaking in the GT86 I drove, but it felt quick enough.

The BRZ/GT86 has similar power to weight to my old Civic Type-R or RX-8.

Seems to me that if you can't overtake in either of those, you couldn't drive a greased stick up a dog's bum.

[MC Bodge]

Given that, believe it or not, most people don't actually full-on race other cars on the roads and, suggested by the other thread, even car enthusiasts don't really drive their cars very hard, it doesn't actually matter whether sporty road car X is faster/slower than sporty road car Y on track Z when driven by a professional racer.

A 2.0/3.0 TD Audi might be faster than a GT86/BRZ in a straight line from a sort-of-quick 'street start' or high gear roll-on. Does it matter?

A Formula Ford could humiliate the Megane on a race track. Does it matter?

[SystemParanoia]

i happily overtake the 40mph brigade on B roads every day on my commute driving my metro.. i cant imagine it being a challenge at all in the BRZ...

if it is.. then you cant drive and should surrender your licence

[VeeFource]

SystemParanoia said:

i happily overtake the 40mph brigade on B roads every day on my commute driving my metro.. i cant imagine it being a challenge at all in the BRZ...

if it is.. then you cant drive and should surrender your licence

Of course I don't think the BRZ/GT86 is incapable of overtaking, but you're obviously not going to have as many opportunities at getting past safely as you would in a 135i...

[Dr Z]

SystemParanoia said:

i happily overtake the 40mph brigade on B roads every day on my commute driving my metro.. i cant imagine it being a challenge at all in the BRZ...

if it is.. then you cant drive and should surrender your licence

I do the same in my old Citroen ZX TD. Sure, extra power is helpful, but ~150bhp/ton is luxury compared to the cars mentioned.

[MC Bodge]

VeeFource said:

Of course I don't think the BRZ/GT86 is incapable of overtaking, but you're obviously not going to have as many opportunities at getting past safely as you would in a 135i...

...but, then again, you're not going to have as many opportunities to get past in a 135i than you are on something like this basic machine:

[V8RX7]

MC Bodge said:

VeeFource said:

Of course I don't think the BRZ/GT86 is incapable of overtaking, but you're obviously not going to have as many opportunities at getting past safely as you would in a 135i...

...but, then again, you're not going to have as many opportunities to get past in a 135i than you are on something like this basic machine:

No but lets see you get 3 kids to school on that.

[SystemParanoia]

[braddo]

s m said:

braddo said:

Mentioned in a feature with the Cayman:

"Were you able to launch the FR-S closer to its lofty 6400-rpm torque peak without the tires losing traction, the 0-to-60-mph time (6.4 seconds) would undoubtedly be quicker. "

http://www.caranddriver.com/comparisons/2013-scion...

Not a gripe at the GT86 in particular....but that's a strange thing to say. There's often a balancing act to be performed between wheelspin and avoiding 'bogging down' in most rwd cars launching from a standstill. That Shelby GT500 off TG last month "would undoubtedly be quicker.....without the tires losing traction"

I didn't read the whole article but I took the C&D comment to be in the context of the GT86 having reasonably low grip tyres for a sports car. It would be interesting to see if that 0-60 time would change much if it had the same type of tyres as the Megane 265, for example.

I don't know if anyone really knows how much lower grip the GT86 tyres are compared to hot hatches and Sciroccos etc. The 'Prius' tyre thing seem overhyped since they are the optional sports tyre for the Prius, not the standard jobbies.

[s m]

braddo said:

s m said:

braddo said:

Mentioned in a feature with the Cayman:

"Were you able to launch the FR-S closer to its lofty 6400-rpm torque peak without the tires losing traction, the 0-to-60-mph time (6.4 seconds) would undoubtedly be quicker. "

http://www.caranddriver.com/comparisons/2013-scion...

Not a gripe at the GT86 in particular....but that's a strange thing to say. There's often a balancing act to be performed between wheelspin and avoiding 'bogging down' in most rwd cars launching from a standstill. That Shelby GT500 off TG last month "would undoubtedly be quicker.....without the tires losing traction"

I didn't read the whole article but I took the C&D comment to be in the context of the GT86 having reasonably low grip tyres for a sports car. It would be interesting to see if that 0-60 time would change much if it had the same type of tyres as the Megane 265, for example.

I don't know if anyone really knows how much lower grip the GT86 tyres are compared to hot hatches and Sciroccos etc. The 'Prius' tyre thing seem overhyped since they are the optional sports tyre for the Prius, not the standard jobbies.

If you read the Autocar article it managed to pull 0.99g on the steering pad with the same tyres - not too shabby for a 'low grip' tyre. I would have thought they were reasonable width and grip for a 1235kg car

[W124]

I don't buy the EVO article. It's like the music critic from the Guardian saying he 'doesn't like Jazz'- it's just a wind up. I've driven both cars and the BRZ/GT-86 is fast. It's a fast as a Civic Type R. That's quick enough. I love the Megane, it's the best hot hatch by a country mile but it's no match for the Toyobaru. When I drove the BRZ the last thing I thought was 'needs more power' - I just thought 'This is fking brilliant' - The Megane, world class braking balance and all, will be eclipsed by the next bonkers hatch. The GT86/BRZ has depth.

As an aside, after Millbrook last year, at the end of the day, the Renault press Megane was in a pretty poor state. Creaking, smoking brakes, rattles - strong chemical smells abounding. The BRZ by contrast, which had been driven just as hard, was much fresher. The only challenge I can see for it is the next MX-5, which can't be far away.