RE: Caterham gets Suzuki power
Discussion
Noger said:
PPS We probably started our BECs at the same time, I was totally inspired by Rich's R1 build too (but went with Gixxer power due to STM running them in their race Phoenix at the time).
<waves> You know the best thing about this thread is that it is drawing the attention of all the armchair experts away from the 'dog slow' Elise 1.6 that I had a great drive in yesterday. Co-incidentally, Ed Cane has one now too!ash73 said:
Just spec it with an aeroscreen and chuck it down a few country lanes, it'll feel fast enough alright. That's the beauty of these cars, if you can avoid getting caught up in the trackday arms race.
Totally agree and you will be able to really rev the engine and feel like you are exploiting all the available performance on the road.... I had a tuned 996Turbo and a 2.5 Boxster at the same time... I always prefered ragging the Boxster down country lanes as you could really thrash the pants of it and rev it through the gears without making the jump to hyperspace like the turbo did... its the same with Sevens. They have the trackday market covered... this is aiming at a more sedate kinda customer.
Good luck to them
Fetchez la vache said:
Noger said:
most people will expect the reverse gear to a) exist b) be part of the gear box.
Reminds me of a lift I had to a hockey match in a teammates Fiat Strata. Whenever we needed to reverse we needed to get get out and push.So to recap: reverse gear definitely required.
a) You have enough power to donut your way out of trouble
b) You pay attention to where you are going in the first place
I love the idea of back-to-basics sports car, but by the time you add a driver, passenger, full tank of fuel (ok not so big in a Caterham) that 128bhp/ton will be more like ~95bhp/ton...less than an early 1.6 MX-5. Will still be fun, but I'd want something with a bit more poke for 17k. Will be interesting to see how much they can squeeze out of the little 3 cyl!
tim-b said:
I love the idea of back-to-basics sports car, but by the time you add a driver, passenger, full tank of fuel (ok not so big in a Caterham) that 128bhp/ton will be more like ~95bhp/ton...less than an early 1.6 MX-5.
Er, not it won't... not if you add the same driver, passenger, full tank of fuel, to the 1.6 MX-5.Anyway, where are you getting this 128 bhp/ton from? At the risk of repeating myself:
"While Caterham has not officially published the final power output, it has strongly implied it by naming it as a 180 bhp / tonne car weighing 500 kg, which means the best evidence we have of the power output is not exactly hard to calculate at 90 bhp."
Lowtimer said:
"While Caterham has not officially published the final power output, it has strongly implied it by naming it as a 180 bhp / tonne car weighing 500 kg, which means the best evidence we have of the power output is not exactly hard to calculate at 90 bhp."
I do wonder what they are going to put in to get it back up to 500kg.A live-axle bike engined Caterham, even without acres of Carbon, is nearer 400kg than 500.
The Kei are limited to 64hp at the wheels ? So with a little magic and flywheel hp...isn't going to be *that* hard to get it to something plenty fun.
Well, we'll see. 500 kg is a suspiciously round number and any sensible manufacturer of a lightweight sports car will want to surprise the market on the upside rather than the downside, so maybe it will be less than 500 kg when the finished article eventually goes on the weighbridge,
There's also the difficulty of the various weight standards and whether apples are compared with apples or other fruit.
The DIN weight definition includes full (or perhaps 90% - not sure) tank of fuel and all other fluids, any tools supplied as standard, and spare wheel if supplied as standard, with no driver allowance.
I believe EU weight is basically similar to the DIN weight but with an additional 68 kg driver, and 7 kg of general clutter.
So it's possible what you'd call a 400 kg car is close to 500 kg weighed to Euro specs.
There's also the difficulty of the various weight standards and whether apples are compared with apples or other fruit.
The DIN weight definition includes full (or perhaps 90% - not sure) tank of fuel and all other fluids, any tools supplied as standard, and spare wheel if supplied as standard, with no driver allowance.
I believe EU weight is basically similar to the DIN weight but with an additional 68 kg driver, and 7 kg of general clutter.
So it's possible what you'd call a 400 kg car is close to 500 kg weighed to Euro specs.
Interesting engine choice, would not have guessed that. I think most thought Ecoboost or one of Renault's new small petrol engines.
But the article (thanks!) makes it sound logical. Looks like they can recycle most of the drive train from the Suzuki Carry, which isn't a bad thing IMO. Light weight and should be bullet proof as well as cheap, making the 17k cost target sound realistic.
Gear ratios and final power output will be interesting of course. But even with 80-90 bhp this will be fun. If you don't believe that, go try an old Caterham with the entry level 80 something bhp Ford engine... The K6A will rev nicely, sound will have character (I3) and, while pretty irrelevant RE running costs, it should get silly MPG if driven carefully.
There also seems to be a bit of modding of the K6A engines going on in Japan. Only did a quick tour of google.co.jp, but that looks promising, eg. http://www.geocities.co.jp/MotorCity-Rally/1407/tu... .
I think this all looks *very* promising.
BIG question though: how will Caterham handle type approval? Will this be UK only (and possibly Japan)? Really, really hope there is a way to get one in Europe. For €20k I'd buy one right away.
But the article (thanks!) makes it sound logical. Looks like they can recycle most of the drive train from the Suzuki Carry, which isn't a bad thing IMO. Light weight and should be bullet proof as well as cheap, making the 17k cost target sound realistic.
Gear ratios and final power output will be interesting of course. But even with 80-90 bhp this will be fun. If you don't believe that, go try an old Caterham with the entry level 80 something bhp Ford engine... The K6A will rev nicely, sound will have character (I3) and, while pretty irrelevant RE running costs, it should get silly MPG if driven carefully.
There also seems to be a bit of modding of the K6A engines going on in Japan. Only did a quick tour of google.co.jp, but that looks promising, eg. http://www.geocities.co.jp/MotorCity-Rally/1407/tu... .
I think this all looks *very* promising.
BIG question though: how will Caterham handle type approval? Will this be UK only (and possibly Japan)? Really, really hope there is a way to get one in Europe. For €20k I'd buy one right away.
Kolbenkopp said:
Interesting engine choice, would not have guessed that. I think most thought Ecoboost or one of Renault's new small petrol engines.
Judging by the quoted prices that were floating around for the 1.0 3-cyl Ecoboost at the time of the "new Forumla Ford" story a few months ago, that engine was much too expensive to be viable for a car that needs to be priced at the introductory end of the Caterham range.Lowtimer said:
Judging by the quoted prices that were floating around for the 1.0 3-cyl Ecoboost at the time of the "new Forumla Ford" story a few months ago, that engine was much too expensive to be viable for a car that needs to be priced at the introductory end of the Caterham range.
Yep, makes sense -- in hindsight, it is a pretty high tech bit of kit so bound to be costing more than the 17k base price allows. I wonder though if the Caterham will get the K6A or what appears to be the newer R6A. The K6A seems to be about 10 years + old and appears to be used in the Jimny and the little trucks only at the moment. New stuff seems to get the R6A, but I did not find anything with a prop shaft among the cars they put it in.
From a bit of googleing at least, the K6A seems to be more robust which is good but leaves me worried that, due to age, it will not be able to hit Euro 5 emissions.
Which sadly is a prerequisite to have any chance of getting it past TÜV and road registered here. Please, Caterham, please, make that thing so it can be sold to Europe. For around 20k € this would be a massive hit, my money you'd definitely get.
80bhp and 107nm of torque.
Emmissions and fuel economy had better be pretty stunning to justify that! Most importantly though, it's fully Euro 5 compliant as well as approved for sale in Japan so will open up a load of new export markets for Caterham
Full press release below:
[i]
Legendary sportscar manufacturer confirms more details for entry-level Seven
Suzuki-powered 660cc Seven will be ultimate in ‘accessible fun’
Target of January for SOP of €25,000 car
Caterham Cars’ new entry-level Seven will be unveiled in prototype concept form at this year’s Frankfurt Motor Show (Sept 10-22).
Ahead of the show, the British manufacturer of lightweight sportscars has revealed more details about the variant of the iconic Seven that will provide an accessible new entry point to the current range, with a price tag target of €25,000 including local taxes.
The car will be called the Caterham Seven 165, a reference primarily to the confirmed 80hp produced by the 660cc, three-cylinder, turbocharged Suzuki K6A engine after enhancements made by the Caterham Group’s engineering consultancy, Caterham Technology & Innovation (CTI).
The number five at the end of the car’s moniker signifies that the vehicle also complies with the EU5 emissions standards, allowing it to be sold across mainland Europe. It also complies with the similar JC08 test mode for sales in Japan while, in the UK, a different variant of the car - the Caterham Seven 160 - will start from under £17,000.
Despite the compact nature of the Suzuki powerplant, CTI has fine-tuned the K6A engine to deliver increased performance including a torque output of 107Nm, balanced against amplified fuel economy and reduced vehicle emissions.
Caterham Cars CEO, Graham Macdonald, said: “The engineering process involved in the creation of the Caterham Seven 165 is nearing completion and, as we piece together the final elements, the car we believe will inspire a new generation of drivers to become Caterham enthusiasts is taking shape in exciting fashion.
“Earlier this year, we launched the fastest, most powerful production Seven we’ve ever launched in Europe – the Seven 485. The 165 will sit at the opposite end of the scale, both in engine size and price, but the beautiful thing is that the two cars will offer exactly the same level of pure driving fun. Whether you’re a seasoned, hardcore driver or whether you’re new to sportscars, there will be a Caterham that suits you.”
Production of the Caterham Seven 165 is expected to begin in January 2014, with first deliveries later that Spring.
[/i]
Emmissions and fuel economy had better be pretty stunning to justify that! Most importantly though, it's fully Euro 5 compliant as well as approved for sale in Japan so will open up a load of new export markets for Caterham
Full press release below:
[i]
Legendary sportscar manufacturer confirms more details for entry-level Seven
Suzuki-powered 660cc Seven will be ultimate in ‘accessible fun’
Target of January for SOP of €25,000 car
Caterham Cars’ new entry-level Seven will be unveiled in prototype concept form at this year’s Frankfurt Motor Show (Sept 10-22).
Ahead of the show, the British manufacturer of lightweight sportscars has revealed more details about the variant of the iconic Seven that will provide an accessible new entry point to the current range, with a price tag target of €25,000 including local taxes.
The car will be called the Caterham Seven 165, a reference primarily to the confirmed 80hp produced by the 660cc, three-cylinder, turbocharged Suzuki K6A engine after enhancements made by the Caterham Group’s engineering consultancy, Caterham Technology & Innovation (CTI).
The number five at the end of the car’s moniker signifies that the vehicle also complies with the EU5 emissions standards, allowing it to be sold across mainland Europe. It also complies with the similar JC08 test mode for sales in Japan while, in the UK, a different variant of the car - the Caterham Seven 160 - will start from under £17,000.
Despite the compact nature of the Suzuki powerplant, CTI has fine-tuned the K6A engine to deliver increased performance including a torque output of 107Nm, balanced against amplified fuel economy and reduced vehicle emissions.
Caterham Cars CEO, Graham Macdonald, said: “The engineering process involved in the creation of the Caterham Seven 165 is nearing completion and, as we piece together the final elements, the car we believe will inspire a new generation of drivers to become Caterham enthusiasts is taking shape in exciting fashion.
“Earlier this year, we launched the fastest, most powerful production Seven we’ve ever launched in Europe – the Seven 485. The 165 will sit at the opposite end of the scale, both in engine size and price, but the beautiful thing is that the two cars will offer exactly the same level of pure driving fun. Whether you’re a seasoned, hardcore driver or whether you’re new to sportscars, there will be a Caterham that suits you.”
Production of the Caterham Seven 165 is expected to begin in January 2014, with first deliveries later that Spring.
[/i]
Hmm. They've trimmed back a bit from the 'Caterham 180' moniker that was attached to it earlier, then. Still, it opens up a big new market from them, will still show a clean pair of heels to the average family car, most '80s or early '90s hot hatches, and most classic sports cars in the price range. And those who want a more powerful Caterham in the UK still have plenty to choose from.
Lowtimer said:
Hmm. They've trimmed back a bit from the 'Caterham 180' moniker that was attached to it earlier, then. Still, it opens up a big new market from them, will still show a clean pair of heels to the average family car, most '80s or early '90s hot hatches, and most classic sports cars in the price range. And those who want a more powerful Caterham in the UK still have plenty to choose from.
Would that be the slow, underpowered sports car market?Hmmm, I stand by what I said originally then. 80bhp is not enough, there hasn't been a Seven with that little power since the Pre-Caterham days and virtually all of those have now been breathed on to produce more power. One of the main benefits of such a low kerb weight is good acceleration from modest power, there's no point in hamstringing it by giving it so little power and torque. As soon as you're up at fast A road speeds the brick like aerodynamics are going to blunt the acceleration to the point where there will no point in using the throttle at all.
A Seven is a toy, a fun weekend car designed purely to deliver thrills, owners do not care about having incredible fuel economy. I think this will harm their sales considerably.
A Seven is a toy, a fun weekend car designed purely to deliver thrills, owners do not care about having incredible fuel economy. I think this will harm their sales considerably.
RYH64E said:
Lowtimer said:
Hmm. They've trimmed back a bit from the 'Caterham 180' moniker that was attached to it earlier, then. Still, it opens up a big new market from them, will still show a clean pair of heels to the average family car, most '80s or early '90s hot hatches, and most classic sports cars in the price range. And those who want a more powerful Caterham in the UK still have plenty to choose from.
Would that be the slow, underpowered sports car market?DonkeyApple said:
I wonder if in the UK they have noticed a decline in younger buyers and believe the issue to be insurance cost?
I would have thought that the younger, insurance sensitive end of the market would have bought second hand rather than new, and if you're young insurance is never cheap! RYH64E said:
DonkeyApple said:
I wonder if in the UK they have noticed a decline in younger buyers and believe the issue to be insurance cost?
I would have thought that the younger, insurance sensitive end of the market would have bought second hand rather than new, and if you're young insurance is never cheap! Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff