Is the diesel backlash about to start?
Discussion
Max_Torque said:
neil1jnr said:
but keep your foot down past 4000rpm and the power comes into play all the way past 6000rpm. It's just so much better.
But what we are talking about here is "subjective" performance. i could say, and this reflects the way 99.9% of people drive, "Damm car, you have to rev the nuts off it to get anywhere" for example!Lets face it, a Leon (<< insert your fav brand of mass produced saloon/hatchback here) is no 911 GT3, no matter which pump it fuels from. For the vast majority of people, me included, for a road car i want quiet, effortless and easily accessible everyday performance, which the high boost dervs deliver, and is one of the reasons they are so popular. And that's precisely the reason people on "PH" like to get up and shout "Dervs are not very PH" or whatever. No, no they are not, and that is why people drive them ;-)
My whole point is that modern petrol turbos give these comforts you look for in everyday driving with a diesel "quiet, effortless and easily accessible everyday performance", but sound better and when you want to you stretch the car round to the 6-7ooo rpm region for enjoyment you can!
You don't have to rev the nuts off of any modern petrol turbo.
Indeed, at 86kg including the turbo it seems pretty light. 105kg for the 1.8 duratec.
Dressing like the alternator and intake system takes it to the 97kg declared.
The ECOboost 1.6 seems to be 14kg heavier at 100kg prior to 'dressed' parts
Dressing like the alternator and intake system takes it to the 97kg declared.
The ECOboost 1.6 seems to be 14kg heavier at 100kg prior to 'dressed' parts
Edited by JonnyVTEC on Friday 15th August 12:22
Max_Torque said:
Fastdruid said:
Shame really that the ecoboost is a fat lump of an engine. 
it's nearly 20kg heavier than a the comparable power Zetec 1.6 engine.
Where are people getting there mass figures from? I've seen data that suggests otherwise? it's nearly 20kg heavier than a the comparable power Zetec 1.6 engine. I'm struggling to find reliable sources for the 1.6 Ti-VCT, I have numerous mentions of 90Kg but cannot find an original source.
Ecoboost is easier - Ecoboost 1.0T "dressed weight" 97Kg - http://articles.sae.org/10714/
neil1jnr said:
Max_Torque said:
neil1jnr said:
but keep your foot down past 4000rpm and the power comes into play all the way past 6000rpm. It's just so much better.
But what we are talking about here is "subjective" performance. i could say, and this reflects the way 99.9% of people drive, "Damm car, you have to rev the nuts off it to get anywhere" for example!Lets face it, a Leon (<< insert your fav brand of mass produced saloon/hatchback here) is no 911 GT3, no matter which pump it fuels from. For the vast majority of people, me included, for a road car i want quiet, effortless and easily accessible everyday performance, which the high boost dervs deliver, and is one of the reasons they are so popular. And that's precisely the reason people on "PH" like to get up and shout "Dervs are not very PH" or whatever. No, no they are not, and that is why people drive them ;-)
My whole point is that modern petrol turbos give these comforts you look for in everyday driving with a diesel "quiet, effortless and easily accessible everyday performance", but sound better and when you want to you stretch the car round to the 6-7ooo rpm region for enjoyment you can!
You don't have to rev the nuts off of any modern petrol turbo.
TBH, more and more, i like having a quiet car. These days, subtle performance, without shouting "look at me" is getting increasingly useful.
But of course, the main difference between a modern TDi and a modern GDi, is that the gasoline engine has spark plugs (for now ;-) but pretty much they have become the "same". (peak torque < 2000rpm, peak power somewhere around 5krpm, both heavily turbo'd, both attached to rapid shifting multispeed gearboxes. In fact, the reason people say "my gasoline sounds better" is primarily one of "market tuning". What i mean by that is the fact the gasoline is probably the sports model, and so has the "shouty" exhaust / intake fitted (even if it's faked these days!) whereas the diesel model is the "economy" model and so has a quieter tune for engine acoustics. In effect, the difference is in the attribute setting rather than the base engine geometries.
Max_Torque said:
But of course, the main difference between a modern TDi and a modern GDi, is that the gasoline engine has spark plugs (for now ;-) but pretty much they have become the "same". (peak torque < 2000rpm, peak power somewhere around 5krpm, both heavily turbo'd
Except they haven't except for a few rare diesels, ie the 123d, 330d, 335d, 340d etc. The rest are your common or garden gutless wonders with a <1k wide torque curve and out of puff by ~4k.
You are forever comparing using the 335d as the benchmark rather than the majority of 2l 4-pot diesels which suck. Just look at the difference between a 335d
And every other common or garden 2l single turbo diesel.
In comparison the turbo petrol's have a 2-3k wide curve and will still be making power at 6k+
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I think there is a "shift" in peoples views on diesel cars.
When i was motor trading i really got put off diesels because of the amount of problems you saw with turbos, egr valves, DPFs, DMFs, injectors, to the point where i pretty much avoided buying them for resale.
I think people have started to realise that, PLUS theres now the high efficiency small turbo petrol engines.
Renault do a really nice version with the 1.2TCE engine giving "the fuel consumption of a 1.2 litre engine, the power output of a 1.4 and torque levels of a 1.6". Great little engine.
I think with the medium -> large exec and 4x4s we'll still see dominance of the diesel for some time to come, although BMW have had some success with the new 2.0i Turbo engines in the 3 series in particular.
When i was motor trading i really got put off diesels because of the amount of problems you saw with turbos, egr valves, DPFs, DMFs, injectors, to the point where i pretty much avoided buying them for resale.
I think people have started to realise that, PLUS theres now the high efficiency small turbo petrol engines.
Renault do a really nice version with the 1.2TCE engine giving "the fuel consumption of a 1.2 litre engine, the power output of a 1.4 and torque levels of a 1.6". Great little engine.
I think with the medium -> large exec and 4x4s we'll still see dominance of the diesel for some time to come, although BMW have had some success with the new 2.0i Turbo engines in the 3 series in particular.
Sorry but even as a long time diesel fan I have to agree turbo petrols drive way nicer. I'd had diesels for years (mostly due to need for a frugal car while I was too poor to afford the green pump), and just started accepting them as the norm. However after driving a 1.4TSI the difference is night and day.
My current car is a 2.0 CDTi Astra. It develops 165ps at 4,000rpm and 350Nm torque between 1,750 and 2,500rpm. Quite narrow then. It drives nicely enough when I'm driving like a nun, but despite the paper figures it gets left at the lights by most cars. If I put my foot down instead of changing up at peak torque it's out of puff by 4,000rpm and it's an effort to get it to go anywhere. If I try really, really hard I can get 50mpg out of it but it always feels breathless unless you're finally settled at cruising speed and riding the torque wave.
Now the Skoda 1.6CR TDI. It develops 250Nm torque at 1,500 to 2,750rpm and was OK to drive but nothing particularly grunty feeling.
So I tried the 1.4TSI turbo petrol... It too develops exactly the same 250Nm torque, except it manages it from 1,500 through to 3,500 so not only better than the 1.6 VAG diesel but way wider spread than the dollop given by the Astra. It shoves you from just above idle, but pulls sweetly right through to the red line. So on test drive #1 where I had fun, I ragged the arse off it and enjoyed myself thoroughly and still got 35mpg. On test drive #2 I drove normally and not only does it feel (and actually is) faster than my Astra, but I got 50mpg without even trying.
So my biased, subjective and personal opinion? Turbo petrols have all the upside of diesel with extra power (HP), wider spread of similar amounts of torque, and can go from fun revvy blastmobiles to sedate, grunty eco-boxes without changing vehicle. Why the hell did I not get one sooner?
Sorry, as I said I am (was?) a die hard diesel fan but when you look at the figures and actually drive the things, turbo petrol gives you a lot of thinking to do. JMHO.
My current car is a 2.0 CDTi Astra. It develops 165ps at 4,000rpm and 350Nm torque between 1,750 and 2,500rpm. Quite narrow then. It drives nicely enough when I'm driving like a nun, but despite the paper figures it gets left at the lights by most cars. If I put my foot down instead of changing up at peak torque it's out of puff by 4,000rpm and it's an effort to get it to go anywhere. If I try really, really hard I can get 50mpg out of it but it always feels breathless unless you're finally settled at cruising speed and riding the torque wave.
Now the Skoda 1.6CR TDI. It develops 250Nm torque at 1,500 to 2,750rpm and was OK to drive but nothing particularly grunty feeling.
So I tried the 1.4TSI turbo petrol... It too develops exactly the same 250Nm torque, except it manages it from 1,500 through to 3,500 so not only better than the 1.6 VAG diesel but way wider spread than the dollop given by the Astra. It shoves you from just above idle, but pulls sweetly right through to the red line. So on test drive #1 where I had fun, I ragged the arse off it and enjoyed myself thoroughly and still got 35mpg. On test drive #2 I drove normally and not only does it feel (and actually is) faster than my Astra, but I got 50mpg without even trying.
So my biased, subjective and personal opinion? Turbo petrols have all the upside of diesel with extra power (HP), wider spread of similar amounts of torque, and can go from fun revvy blastmobiles to sedate, grunty eco-boxes without changing vehicle. Why the hell did I not get one sooner?
Sorry, as I said I am (was?) a die hard diesel fan but when you look at the figures and actually drive the things, turbo petrol gives you a lot of thinking to do. JMHO.
DervHead said:
Sorry but even as a long time diesel fan I have to agree turbo petrols drive way nicer. I'd had diesels for years (mostly due to need for a frugal car while I was too poor to afford the green pump), and just started accepting them as the norm. However after driving a 1.4TSI the difference is night and day.
My current car is a 2.0 CDTi Astra. It develops 165ps at 4,000rpm and 350Nm torque between 1,750 and 2,500rpm. Quite narrow then. It drives nicely enough when I'm driving like a nun, but despite the paper figures it gets left at the lights by most cars. If I put my foot down instead of changing up at peak torque it's out of puff by 4,000rpm and it's an effort to get it to go anywhere. If I try really, really hard I can get 50mpg out of it but it always feels breathless unless you're finally settled at cruising speed and riding the torque wave.
Now the Skoda 1.6CR TDI. It develops 250Nm torque at 1,500 to 2,750rpm and was OK to drive but nothing particularly grunty feeling.
So I tried the 1.4TSI turbo petrol... It too develops exactly the same 250Nm torque, except it manages it from 1,500 through to 3,500 so not only better than the 1.6 VAG diesel but way wider spread than the dollop given by the Astra. It shoves you from just above idle, but pulls sweetly right through to the red line. So on test drive #1 where I had fun, I ragged the arse off it and enjoyed myself thoroughly and still got 35mpg. On test drive #2 I drove normally and not only does it feel (and actually is) faster than my Astra, but I got 50mpg without even trying.
So my biased, subjective and personal opinion? Turbo petrols have all the upside of diesel with extra power (HP), wider spread of similar amounts of torque, and can go from fun revvy blastmobiles to sedate, grunty eco-boxes without changing vehicle. Why the hell did I not get one sooner?
Sorry, as I said I am (was?) a die hard diesel fan but when you look at the figures and actually drive the things, turbo petrol gives you a lot of thinking to do. JMHO.
Exactly the point I was getting at. I was a massice fan of my Leon diesel, it was brilliant but it wasn't until I went into Ford and drove the Fiesta ST I realised that it is game over diesel. Just as torque, much more powerful top end, and FUN to drive.My current car is a 2.0 CDTi Astra. It develops 165ps at 4,000rpm and 350Nm torque between 1,750 and 2,500rpm. Quite narrow then. It drives nicely enough when I'm driving like a nun, but despite the paper figures it gets left at the lights by most cars. If I put my foot down instead of changing up at peak torque it's out of puff by 4,000rpm and it's an effort to get it to go anywhere. If I try really, really hard I can get 50mpg out of it but it always feels breathless unless you're finally settled at cruising speed and riding the torque wave.
Now the Skoda 1.6CR TDI. It develops 250Nm torque at 1,500 to 2,750rpm and was OK to drive but nothing particularly grunty feeling.
So I tried the 1.4TSI turbo petrol... It too develops exactly the same 250Nm torque, except it manages it from 1,500 through to 3,500 so not only better than the 1.6 VAG diesel but way wider spread than the dollop given by the Astra. It shoves you from just above idle, but pulls sweetly right through to the red line. So on test drive #1 where I had fun, I ragged the arse off it and enjoyed myself thoroughly and still got 35mpg. On test drive #2 I drove normally and not only does it feel (and actually is) faster than my Astra, but I got 50mpg without even trying.
So my biased, subjective and personal opinion? Turbo petrols have all the upside of diesel with extra power (HP), wider spread of similar amounts of torque, and can go from fun revvy blastmobiles to sedate, grunty eco-boxes without changing vehicle. Why the hell did I not get one sooner?
Sorry, as I said I am (was?) a die hard diesel fan but when you look at the figures and actually drive the things, turbo petrol gives you a lot of thinking to do. JMHO.
Best of both worlds, will easily do 45mpgwhen you want and is a blast to drive when you want to drive it properly.
nicanary said:
Seller - "It's petrol. Done 100k in 3 years." Buyer - "Whaaa....?"
Seller - "it's diesel. Done 100k in 3 years," Buyer - "When can I come round?"
That's my personal problem. I'd much rather drive a petrol, but........
.... residuals.Seller - "it's diesel. Done 100k in 3 years," Buyer - "When can I come round?"
That's my personal problem. I'd much rather drive a petrol, but........
Indeed. People have no problems with buying a 100K 4 year old golf diesel, petrol one with 100K and the phone wont ring.
neil1jnr said:
Exactly the point I was getting at. I was a massice fan of my Leon diesel, it was brilliant but it wasn't until I went into Ford and drove the Fiesta ST I realised that it is game over diesel. Just as torque, much more powerful top end, and FUN to drive.
Best of both worlds, will easily do 45mpgwhen you want and is a blast to drive when you want to drive it properly.
Doesnt work quite so well when you want to drive bigger cars than a fiesta though.Best of both worlds, will easily do 45mpgwhen you want and is a blast to drive when you want to drive it properly.
Plus i'm getting 65mpg minimum in my golf. This fill i think its going to break 70mpg brim to brim.
daemon said:
Doesnt work quite so well when you want to drive bigger cars than a fiesta though.
Plus i'm getting 65mpg minimum in my golf. This fill i think its going to break 70mpg brim to brim.
The Octavia I drove with the 1.4TSI was perfectly adequate (0-62 in 8.1 seconds) and it has as almost as much room in the back as a Mondeo, but with a bigger boot. How much bigger of a car are you envisaging? I did all the figures too, and the difference real world between the turbo petrol was zero pounds (compared to my diesel Astra) to £5 a week (more frugal VAG diesel). Plus i'm getting 65mpg minimum in my golf. This fill i think its going to break 70mpg brim to brim.
That's definitely something I can cope with for something that drives so much nicer!
DervHead said:
daemon said:
Doesnt work quite so well when you want to drive bigger cars than a fiesta though.
Plus i'm getting 65mpg minimum in my golf. This fill i think its going to break 70mpg brim to brim.
The Octavia I drove with the 1.4TSI was perfectly adequate (0-62 in 8.1 seconds) and it has as almost as much room in the back as a Mondeo, but with a bigger boot. How much bigger of a car are you envisaging? I did all the figures too, and the difference real world between the turbo petrol was zero pounds (compared to my diesel Astra) to £5 a week (more frugal VAG diesel). Plus i'm getting 65mpg minimum in my golf. This fill i think its going to break 70mpg brim to brim.
That's definitely something I can cope with for something that drives so much nicer!
Yes, that new VW engine is v good.
daemon said:
nicanary said:
Seller - "It's petrol. Done 100k in 3 years." Buyer - "Whaaa....?"
Seller - "it's diesel. Done 100k in 3 years," Buyer - "When can I come round?"
That's my personal problem. I'd much rather drive a petrol, but........
.... residuals.Seller - "it's diesel. Done 100k in 3 years," Buyer - "When can I come round?"
That's my personal problem. I'd much rather drive a petrol, but........
Indeed. People have no problems with buying a 100K 4 year old golf diesel, petrol one with 100K and the phone wont ring.
daemon said:
neil1jnr said:
Exactly the point I was getting at. I was a massice fan of my Leon diesel, it was brilliant but it wasn't until I went into Ford and drove the Fiesta ST I realised that it is game over diesel. Just as torque, much more powerful top end, and FUN to drive.
Best of both worlds, will easily do 45mpgwhen you want and is a blast to drive when you want to drive it properly.
Doesnt work quite so well when you want to drive bigger cars than a fiesta though.Best of both worlds, will easily do 45mpgwhen you want and is a blast to drive when you want to drive it properly.
Plus i'm getting 65mpg minimum in my golf. This fill i think its going to break 70mpg brim to brim.
Fastdruid said:
daemon said:
nicanary said:
Seller - "It's petrol. Done 100k in 3 years." Buyer - "Whaaa....?"
Seller - "it's diesel. Done 100k in 3 years," Buyer - "When can I come round?"
That's my personal problem. I'd much rather drive a petrol, but........
.... residuals.Seller - "it's diesel. Done 100k in 3 years," Buyer - "When can I come round?"
That's my personal problem. I'd much rather drive a petrol, but........
Indeed. People have no problems with buying a 100K 4 year old golf diesel, petrol one with 100K and the phone wont ring.
I know from trading you could sell 10 golf diesels in the time it would take to sell a golf petrol.
I'd a lovely bright red 318i a while ago with full black leather, low miles and FSH.
Couldnt sell it for love nor money, even though i had it priced significantly below diesel variants (which didnt have leather)
Hopefully that will change over time though.
I once said on PH (and got slated for it) that little turbo petrols are very similar to little turbo diesels.
I meant it as an insult to small turbo petrol engines - the flat power and torque (both peaking low in the rev range) bore me s
tless. A small petrol engine should be peaky, otherwise you may as well ride the torque wave in a diesel and get about 15% better fuel efficiency while doing so. There's no point revving the nuts off a small turbo petrol because it doesn't generate any more power - you are just burning more fuel and making more noise (which is not worth listening to in a turbo 4 banger).
Give me a 2 litre NA tuned for reasonably peaky power delivery and I'd take it over any turbo engine (petrol or diesel) for a hatchback.
I meant it as an insult to small turbo petrol engines - the flat power and torque (both peaking low in the rev range) bore me s
tless. A small petrol engine should be peaky, otherwise you may as well ride the torque wave in a diesel and get about 15% better fuel efficiency while doing so. There's no point revving the nuts off a small turbo petrol because it doesn't generate any more power - you are just burning more fuel and making more noise (which is not worth listening to in a turbo 4 banger).Give me a 2 litre NA tuned for reasonably peaky power delivery and I'd take it over any turbo engine (petrol or diesel) for a hatchback.
austinsmirk said:
I'd run my car on liquidised kittens or puppies if it meant it was cheaper to run.
If you want to get wound up about pollution, you'd be better targeting your opinions and actions in India, China, Pakistan, Africa- you know the countries/continents who really do make an impact......... and not just by car fumes, but by factories and over population.
I don't have to walk/cycle/drive to work in India, China, Africa or near factories or power stations though.If you want to get wound up about pollution, you'd be better targeting your opinions and actions in India, China, Pakistan, Africa- you know the countries/continents who really do make an impact......... and not just by car fumes, but by factories and over population.
Fastdruid said:
Actually work them out though. People go on about residuals but forget the higher purchase price of the Diesel in the first place, I was actually surprised how hard I had to look to find a Diesel that was cheaper to run over 3years and 30k than the equivalent petrol version. I thought it would be far closer for the popular diesels but even then >18k/year before it makes sense to go 320d over 320i!
It is all bks about diesels being cheaper. Audi give the same residual after 3 years and 30k miles for the A3 and Q3 in 2.0tdi and 1.4tfsi form, but the diesel costs £1800 more at least.
This meant the A3 was £250 a month (with £2k down) on the 1.4tfsi and £309 a month for the 2.0tdi.
This makes the petrol far cheaper to own.
The only reason to buy a modern diesel is if you prefer it.
For 90% of car buyers the diesel is not cheaper.
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