RE: Lotus Exige Sport 350: Driven
Discussion
andy_s said:
I sort of see your point, I just think you're over=egging the pudding and putting too much emphasis on it not being a bespoke engine; haven't Lotus always used other people's engines, albeit fettled a bit sometimes? What's wrong with being cheap and reliable anyway?
It's like saying the Elise Mk1 was no good because it had a Rover *spit* engine.
I agree entirely. I am merely highlighting that as Lotus continue their post Bahar recovery and growth they are rapidly outgrowing the commercial benefits of this particular power plant and to keep progressing at their recent pace they are going to need to do something about it. It's like saying the Elise Mk1 was no good because it had a Rover *spit* engine.
The reason for highlighting this in this particular thread is that we seem to have reached this tipping point with this particular model. To add more power means adding so much weight as to negate the benefit and whether owners use or can use anywhere near this amount of power the company doesn't have much choice but to continue increasing output over time for so long as its competitors are doing so. Arguably far less so with the Exige but certainly with the Evora where it has a plethora of mainstream competitors.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
ThanksMy Mrs has one of the last 1ZZ-FE 5 speed engines with a paltry 135bhp and it is fantastic. That's the engine out of a corolla and avensis. Doesn't provide awesome acceleration with most hot hatches quoting better performance but for B-road blasts and track pleasure it's a great little product.
Nothing wrong with Toyota engines. People love using the 'from a taxi line'.
zebra said:
DonkeyApple said:
I believe we are both big Lotus fans but that the company hasn't yet built the product that we would consider value for money but each improvement they make brings that closer.
I grew up with Lotus cars in my father's collection, my father worked with Chapman during the F1 years and I would argue I am far more of a Lotus fan than most. I just happen to think that a s
tty, Toyota V6 designed for cheap cars and commercial usage is utterly beneath a brand of the engine heritage of Lotus. I cannot wait for the day that Lotus is sufficiently financially stable to not have to compromise in this regard and revert to their old ways. It's blunt and I apologise but there is no way I'd pay money for such a special car with such an utterly unspecial engine stuffed in it because it's cheap and reliable.
Sub 4 seconds 0-60.I grew up with Lotus cars in my father's collection, my father worked with Chapman during the F1 years and I would argue I am far more of a Lotus fan than most. I just happen to think that a s
tty, Toyota V6 designed for cheap cars and commercial usage is utterly beneath a brand of the engine heritage of Lotus. I cannot wait for the day that Lotus is sufficiently financially stable to not have to compromise in this regard and revert to their old ways. It's blunt and I apologise but there is no way I'd pay money for such a special car with such an utterly unspecial engine stuffed in it because it's cheap and reliable. Sub 8 seconds 0-100.
fabulous handling.
170 mph.
Supercar performance for about the same money as a highly specced estate car.
Great looking.
Reliable, yes, I did write reliable.
I have 'lived' with Elise/Exige products for the past 12 years. I feel qualified to talk about their pro's and cons.
The engine is perfectly fine allowing more than enough performance on B-roads, good performance on track and still sanitised enough for motorway cruising. I have never had any catastrophic failures either on the old 1.8 NA, 1.8 supercharged or the 3.5 supercharged.
In fact, regardless of reputation I had trouble free motoring in a K-series 111s.
I don't tend to think of Lotus in component form like you do. Taking the car as a whole package delivers a fantastic performance product.
But hey, what do I know, you have never owned nor lived with a Lotus product.
Edited by zebra on Monday 11th January 15:55
You have the view of a very, very small minority. Lotus wants more customers and have implemented a good plan to achieve this. I would place a bet that high on that agenda is replacing the cheap fix Toyota V6 with an engine far more appropriate to Lotus' pedigree is quite high up in the agenda.
That view doesn't make me anti Lotus. It just means I'm not deluded.
otolith said:
Lotus can't and shouldn't try to develop bespoke engines. Porsche can survive a generation of chocolate engines, such is their brand and marketing and ability to fund warranty claims, Lotus would go the way of TVR.
Given that it has to be something off the shelf, what else is available that would be so much better? Is it just a matter of it having had the right badge ground off it?
Absolutely. The big question is who has a power plant that is better dynamically than the Toyota engine. The fundamental issue with V6s is that they are always the manufacturers' cheap fix. Either a cheap way for a premium manufacturer to get a cheaper engine to help increase volume sales or for a cheap manufacturer to have a more premium product. Either way the core premis of any V6 has always had its route in cheapness in reality. Given that it has to be something off the shelf, what else is available that would be so much better? Is it just a matter of it having had the right badge ground off it?
Who has an engine that is currently cost effective but lighter and with greater ability to keep allowing for future power increases? I think that would be a very good discussion.
New engine approval cycles are long and costly. What does it cost to type approve a remapped engine?
Caterham take a Duratec and then tune it themselves for a light 2 seater not a 4 seat ecobox. even then technically it's a kitcar.
Sad thing is that Lotus still do this work for others!
Caterham take a Duratec and then tune it themselves for a light 2 seater not a 4 seat ecobox. even then technically it's a kitcar.
Sad thing is that Lotus still do this work for others!
DonkeyApple said:
Of course, you could actually try discussing the points that I have raised.
For starters, are you denying that Lotus have been moving their cars into higher and higher price brackets over recent years? As you are please justify.
Please also justify your view that the Toyota engine has plenty more power left in it as you clearly disagree with that view.
And do please take a moment of your time to state why this Toyota power plant is worthy to be compared to some of the engines that Lotus has used to huge regard in the past?
The floor is all yours to explain exactly why as Lotus heads towards 2020 with their clear plan to deliver more powerful and more expensive products that this Toyota engine is precisely the right power plant to continue delivering the returns that it has done to date.
What 'price bracket' do you think they are 'moving into?For starters, are you denying that Lotus have been moving their cars into higher and higher price brackets over recent years? As you are please justify.
Please also justify your view that the Toyota engine has plenty more power left in it as you clearly disagree with that view.
And do please take a moment of your time to state why this Toyota power plant is worthy to be compared to some of the engines that Lotus has used to huge regard in the past?
The floor is all yours to explain exactly why as Lotus heads towards 2020 with their clear plan to deliver more powerful and more expensive products that this Toyota engine is precisely the right power plant to continue delivering the returns that it has done to date.
The S1 Elise was nearly £20k 20 years ago. A base model now is £35k. Not bad when a Golf R or a BMW135i is about £30k
Some Caterhams are 50k.
The Alfa 4C at least £45k.
Fezzas, Porkas and Lambos are well north of £100k.
As such, the Evora and Exige are competitively priced.
As stated many times, I do not understand the constant droning on about Lotus needing to elicit more power from their engines.
What is it people expect an Exige to do differently with more than 400bhp? Who does 0-60 standing starts? Mid range acceleration is more than good enough for track work.
If Lotus really wanted their cars to go much faster, they could fit big brake kits as standard and provide free driver training because most of the bullsh*t in this and other threads comes from people who would fail to drive to 7/10ths of this cars ability, let alone 10/10ths.
Zyp said:
DA - I was only concerned with your statement of 'wholly inapropriate'
That in itself is horse st.
Ok, so let's put aside your general abuse regarding 'my type of person' and brings things back to a more appropriate level of discussion. That in itself is horse s
t.Why is it horse s
t, as you put it? Instead of resorting to abuse why don't you simply counter with a sensible explanation as to why I am incorrect. That is how 'discussion' works. I am very happy to have my belief countered and my view changed. My current belief is that this power plant was chosen initially based almost entirely on financial needs and not engineering. It is far heavier than any Lotus engineer would want an engine to be and even their magic hasn't been able to mask the fact that it was designed as a cooking engine as seen by the fact that FI has been needed to get any real BHP/cc out of it.
My ongoing concern is that while at the time the financial needs of Lotus were the crucial drivers behind its actions as the firm once again grows, increases sales, targets new customers and increases prices while also needing to maintain its chosen pace in the General BHP arms race just how is the current V6 going to achieve any of that?
DonkeyApple said:
Ok, so let's put aside your general abuse regarding 'my type of person' and brings things back to a more appropriate level of discussion.
Why is it horse st, as you put it? Instead of resorting to abuse why don't you simply counter with a sensible explanation as to why I am incorrect. That is how 'discussion' works. I am very happy to have my belief countered and my view changed.
My current belief is that this power plant was chosen initially based almost entirely on financial needs and not engineering. It is far heavier than any Lotus engineer would want an engine to be and even their magic hasn't been able to mask the fact that it was designed as a cooking engine as seen by the fact that FI has been needed to get any real BHP/cc out of it.
My ongoing concern is that while at the time the financial needs of Lotus were the crucial drivers behind its actions as the firm once again grows, increases sales, targets new customers and increases prices while also needing to maintain its chosen pace in the General BHP arms race just how is the current V6 going to achieve any of that?
So what power plant is available that would be better? I can't think of any that maybe available and offer more power, less weight and will have half a chance of fitting.Why is it horse s
t, as you put it? Instead of resorting to abuse why don't you simply counter with a sensible explanation as to why I am incorrect. That is how 'discussion' works. I am very happy to have my belief countered and my view changed. My current belief is that this power plant was chosen initially based almost entirely on financial needs and not engineering. It is far heavier than any Lotus engineer would want an engine to be and even their magic hasn't been able to mask the fact that it was designed as a cooking engine as seen by the fact that FI has been needed to get any real BHP/cc out of it.
My ongoing concern is that while at the time the financial needs of Lotus were the crucial drivers behind its actions as the firm once again grows, increases sales, targets new customers and increases prices while also needing to maintain its chosen pace in the General BHP arms race just how is the current V6 going to achieve any of that?
Impasse said:
DonkeyApple said:
otolith said:
Lotus can't and shouldn't try to develop bespoke engines.
Absolutely. Lotus provides consultancy to OEMs on engine development, but it does not fund, develop, procure and make a profit selling engines itself, and I would argue that it would be foolish to try. It can't, because it can't afford to, not because it lacks the talent.
DonkeyApple said:
Yet barely a thousand people on the planet each year agree with you.
You have the view of a very, very small minority. Lotus wants more customers and have implemented a good plan to achieve this. I would place a bet that high on that agenda is replacing the cheap fix Toyota V6 with an engine far more appropriate to Lotus' pedigree is quite high up in the agenda.
That view doesn't make me anti Lotus. It just means I'm not deluded.
Niche car manufacturers cannot chase Mainstream products like Porsche. They are increasing their sales figures with these new products but their products will not appeal to everyone for the compromises they come with.You have the view of a very, very small minority. Lotus wants more customers and have implemented a good plan to achieve this. I would place a bet that high on that agenda is replacing the cheap fix Toyota V6 with an engine far more appropriate to Lotus' pedigree is quite high up in the agenda.
That view doesn't make me anti Lotus. It just means I'm not deluded.
Mass market appeal will not be achieved by stating they have a 'Lotus Engine' _ it didn't work for TVR. The masses would see the engine bay with the words 'Lotus Performance' and that would be good enough for them but they would not buy the car in the first place as you cannot do a family shop for four with them, put four suitcases in the rear or take the dogs for a walk.
Caterham barely shift a few hundred products year to year, so what? And TVR managed 440 before they went pop.
For Lotus to keep producing their excellent sports car products where they will need mass appeal is with their SUV and also they need and will continue to offer their services to many other manufacturers to help them keep on improving their products too.
The lofty days of the Chapman era have long gone. Safety features and emissions are king now, let alone the increasing size of humans.
Abuse? Are you for real? 
You're very precious...
Ok, this engine - whilst I agree (and have said this before) that it isn't the best V6 in the world, it works in this car.
For someone who hasn't driven it and lived with it for any length of time, to denigrate it is just wrong.
Someone else mentioned the weight - 163kgs.
A fair chunk less than a 3.4 Porsche engine.
We know it would be more than Lotus could afford to develop their own engine, one that would satisfy all the non-buyers - so what would you suggest they do?
They can't win either way - build an engine and have to chuck £10k on the price of the car?
The crux of this though, is those saying the Exige /Evora needs more power - they don't. They really don't.
This place is just becoming a headbangers ball!
You're very precious...
Ok, this engine - whilst I agree (and have said this before) that it isn't the best V6 in the world, it works in this car.
For someone who hasn't driven it and lived with it for any length of time, to denigrate it is just wrong.
Someone else mentioned the weight - 163kgs.
A fair chunk less than a 3.4 Porsche engine.
We know it would be more than Lotus could afford to develop their own engine, one that would satisfy all the non-buyers - so what would you suggest they do?
They can't win either way - build an engine and have to chuck £10k on the price of the car?
The crux of this though, is those saying the Exige /Evora needs more power - they don't. They really don't.
This place is just becoming a headbangers ball!
Edited by Zyp on Monday 11th January 17:05
DonkeyApple said:
Who has an engine that is currently cost effective but lighter and with greater ability to keep allowing for future power increases? I think that would be a very good discussion.
My feeling is that the answer to that is "nobody" - or, at least, "nobody willing to sell one to Lotus". The NA six is dying. Hell, the six is dying. Won't be long before Porsche's production of six cylinder engines dwindles - first it will be 911s and a few high end Cay/Box, then just 911s, then not all 911s, then none of them. Not that they would sell Lotus engines anyway, but it just shows that the market is disappearing. Ford has a V6, as does GM. Not sure why that would be any more acceptable than Toyota's, though, they would still be essentially engines from blue collar passenger cars.
blueg33 said:
So what power plant is available that would be better? I can't think of any that maybe available and offer more power, less weight and will have half a chance of fitting.
Or be cost effective. As I mentioned in a post just above, I think that is a good discussion to have because we have almost certainly reached the limits of how the current engine can benefit Lotus' halo/premium models.
Toyota designed and built an engine for their big, heavy premium model vehicles to be cost effective against the lower models of premium manufacturers and to try an simulate them. It was an engine designed and built brilliantly but to almost the polar opposite requirements for which Lotus need an engine.
In a world where Porsche have down sized to 4 pots, others are going from 8 to 6. Most high performance sports cars are bought by people who live in a handful of global cities, all of which have ever tightening emissions requirements.
As such, maybe looking to remain big cc at a time when everyone else is steadily migrating to what Lotus used to be the masters at (smaller, lighter engines in lighter cars) is what Lotus should be doing? Maybe the solution lies with an I5 or 4 unit in the future?
But I don't think anyone could practically argue that the engine chosen purely on commercials quite some time ago is the right engine to continue pushing Lotus forward beyond a point in time that can't be that far away?
DonkeyApple said:
<snip>
For starters, are you denying that Lotus have been moving their cars into higher and higher price brackets over recent years? As you are please justify.
<snip>
I don't feel qualified to comment on most of what you're discussing, but I did a little bit of looking into the price thing. For starters, are you denying that Lotus have been moving their cars into higher and higher price brackets over recent years? As you are please justify.
<snip>
First off, you're right. Lotus are moving into a higher price bracket.
However, I don't think it's that extreme all things considered. As far as I remember from last time I looked unto it the Elise is much the same price as it always was and the Exige hasn't seen much of a rise. The S1 Exige cost £48,000 in todays money when it was released, so the Exige S starting at £53,000 isn't such a huge increase.
Lotus always seemed to be fairly expensive it seems.
otolith said:
My feeling is that the answer to that is "nobody" - or, at least, "nobody willing to sell one to Lotus". The NA six is dying. Hell, the six is dying. Won't be long before Porsche's production of six cylinder engines dwindles - first it will be 911s and a few high end Cay/Box, then just 911s, then not all 911s, then none of them. Not that they would sell Lotus engines anyway, but it just shows that the market is disappearing.
Ford has a V6, as does GM. Not sure why that would be any more acceptable than Toyota's, though, they would still be essentially engines from blue collar passenger cars.
I agree. The core trouble with V6s is that they are usually built to emulate a big, lazyish V8 but cheaper. Ford has a V6, as does GM. Not sure why that would be any more acceptable than Toyota's, though, they would still be essentially engines from blue collar passenger cars.
Jag and Merc, who brought out their V6s as a cheap, quick fix for both cheaper and lower emissions are apparently going to be replacing them with the more refined solution of inline 6. If true then it'll probably mean it's just the blue collar end still building V6s.
The small V8s that would fit I suspect are far too expensive. So maybe the solution is for Lotus to revert to their past and use smaller engines. It is after all, as you say, exactly what the mainstream manufacturers are doing. They are Lotusising their product lines making their cars lighter, better handling and with smaller engines?
DonkeyApple said:
I think your's and my views of Lotus are extremely different from those of the GT4 chap who just seems to be justifying to himself why he bought his car.
I believe we are both big Lotus fans but that the company hasn't yet built the product that we would consider value for money but each improvement they make brings that closer.
I grew up with Lotus cars in my father's collection, my father worked with Chapman during the F1 years and I would argue I am far more of a Lotus fan than most.
Lotus fan? I do not think you are. Here's a proper Lotus fan; all of the following represent value for money, performance and fun and they have all been owned by me......I believe we are both big Lotus fans but that the company hasn't yet built the product that we would consider value for money but each improvement they make brings that closer.
I grew up with Lotus cars in my father's collection, my father worked with Chapman during the F1 years and I would argue I am far more of a Lotus fan than most.
otolith said:
Lotus provides consultancy to OEMs on engine development, but it does not fund, develop, procure and make a profit selling engines itself, and I would argue that it would be foolish to try. It can't, because it can't afford to, not because it lacks the talent.
Which is exactly the point I made earlier when I suggested the solution to those moaning about Hethel's engine choices would be to write them out a big fat cheque.At the moment the funds aren't there, so they use what they can to make a profit and profits are appearing these days. The alternative to the Toyota engine is two pedals and a bicycle chain. Lots of complaining on this thread but zero viable solutions being offered. PH as normal.
Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff