Has modern supercar ownership become NAFF and irrelevant?

[mwstewart]

The Moose said:

What about levels of trim fit similar to comparable vehicles from other manufacturers?

I'll have to leave you to decide that. On these type of cars what's under the engine lid and inside the wheelarches are my areas of interest.

[jayemm89]

The Crack Fox said:

It just didn't live up to expectations. Owner says the same thing but as it's worth so much he keeps it under lock and key and hardly drives it. Consider the huge price of the thing, then it has the godawful semi-auto f1 gearbox, LOOK-AT-ME paint colour, convertible roof so everyone stares at you and the thing loses it's rigidity (not that you'd be slinging it around anyway with that 'orrible gearchange), it feels too wide for the road, the interior is, in many places, plasticy, trim is wonky (and this car is pristine with very low miles), and although it makes a nice sound it doesn't feel that fast. It is very, very showy. This is a special edition, and gets this plaque in the cabin. Look at it. Does that look special to you?

This is the only 355 I've driven. No, it's not fast. A Golf R would have it, no question. Yes it makes a lot of noise, and doesn't go as quick as you'd expect for the noise. The one I drove had the proper gearbox. The F1 box was the first of its kind ever used in a road car. It was bound to have issues - took them about ten years to eventually get it right. Is the interior perfect? No. It's a 20-year-old Italian car. it IS a classic car as far as I'm concerned. It's allowed some oddities. Of course, if you'd paid £35k for one you might think it was the bargain of the century. If you paid £135k you might be disappointed. But Ferrari haven't set the prices of them for 17 years!!




But to be honest, a car which looks stunning, sounds sublime but isn't actually scary quick... surely that's what most of us SAY we want?

And if you want to go faster in your Ferrari, the way prices are at the minute you could probably swap a 355 with a 430, and that will go quicker.

[The Moose]

mwstewart said:

The Moose said:

What about levels of trim fit similar to comparable vehicles from other manufacturers?

I'll have to leave you to decide that. On these type of cars what's under the engine lid and inside the wheelarches are my areas of interest.

Personally I love a beautiful flat 6 (or screaming V10!!).

[Europa1]

jayemm89 said:

This is the only 355 I've driven. No, it's not fast. A Golf R would have it, no question. Yes it makes a lot of noise, and doesn't go as quick as you'd expect for the noise. The one I drove had the proper gearbox. The F1 box was the first of its kind ever used in a road car. It was bound to have issues - took them about ten years to eventually get it right. Is the interior perfect? No. It's a 20-year-old Italian car. it IS a classic car as far as I'm concerned. It's allowed some oddities. Of course, if you'd paid £35k for one you might think it was the bargain of the century. If you paid £135k you might be disappointed. But Ferrari haven't set the prices of them for 17 years!!




But to be honest, a car which looks stunning, sounds sublime but isn't actually scary quick... surely that's what most of us SAY we want?

And if you want to go faster in your Ferrari, the way prices are at the minute you could probably swap a 355 with a 430, and that will go quicker.

Now tell us about the Evora, please!

[aeropilot]

Alex_225 said:

Let's face it though, cars in general have got fast to the point of ridiculous in some respect. You have hatch backs that hit 60 in under 5 seconds and can top out at crazy speeds. Also cars that make 400bhp+ are within the reach of us mere mortals now so the opportunity to drive silly fast is there even for the non-supercar owners.

Indeed.....being an old git, the bedroom wall dream supercars of my early teens years (Muira, Daytona, 911T, Aston Vantage etc) are slower (Vmax aside) than my current BMW 135i which is hardly considered to be a 'fast car' by the standards of many on here. But, as a road in todays traffic/road network, its still stupid quick on more than 50% throttle.
I've enjoyed it for 5+ years as a daily driver, but, after a 10+ year gap, I'm going back to having a 'fun weekend toy' and a more sensible DD at the end of the year. I'm sure I'll miss the 135i in many respects, but I'm hugely looking forward to driving something old and very silly again....and when I say old, I don't mean 1980's old......
With a significant lottery win, I'd still have one of my teen years poster cars in a heartbeat, but I think most of us hanker after that whether you are a teen of the 70's or the 90's.
I don't desire any modern current supercar at all, even if I did have a spare 1/4 million tucked down the back of the sofa that I didn't really need.

[mwstewart]

The Moose said:

Personally I love a beautiful flat 6 (or screaming V10!!).

I do love the S54 in my M3 - I'd find it hard to part with. Lamborghini V10 is sublime equipped with a Tubi, but then the V12 in the 599 GTO is absolutely epic:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9ld_K-7-4Y

You'd need a lot of restraint to drive it in the UK.

[Davey S2]

SilverSpur said:

Davey S2 said:

SilverSpur said:

Many of the roads you can drive fast on in the UK are usually a bit narrow, a bit bumpy, or are prone to stray sheep.

Chinning a 488 on a bump in the road must feel a bit painful.

I live within a 25 minute drive of the Brecon Beacons so some of the best driving roads in the UK and that's exactly what the majority of it is like.

In my pre fatherhood days when I had spare time and money I used to spend a lot of time there on weekends in my old S2 Exige and Cayman S. Performance wise those were about spot on for those type of B roads and speeds on some of the longer straights would be more than enough to get you an instant ban.

There's only so fast you can and should drive on the road and I doubt I would have driven much faster if I'd been behind the wheel of a 488.

For road use I think anything more than say a Cayman GT4 is just OTT for road use in the UK.

S2 exige. Perfect for those roads. Grew up there, occasional visitor. You'd probably go faster in the exige than in the Ferrari due to the width.

Must have been loads and loads of fun in the exige.

Yes it was although several years after I sold it I drove my favourite route around the Beacons in my fathers then MX5 and that was just as enjoyable. Not as fast and overtaking was more of a challenge but even though I was on my own there was less pressure to drive fast and get as much out of the car as possible (as there was with the Exige). Just made for great fun.

I see from Twitter that Edward Lovett (of the Dick Lovett cars family) has just taken delivery of a new Singer (it's known as the Monaco car if anyone wants to Google it). Interesting that someone with the cash to buy whatever he wants (and gets to drive most new supercars from the company stock) went for something like this with his own money.

[jayemm89]

Europa1 said:

Now tell us about the Evora, please!

Also gives you a lot of what we want - hydraulic steering, great manual gearbox, very unintrusive driver aids, "just right" power (400bhp, 300lb-ft), driving experience is superb.

I can't link here but if you search Ferrari 355 vs Evora 400 on YouTube you should find a video comparing the two.

[NJH]

What is interesting is that the failure of Bristol and their Fighter model seems to suggest that many of the opinions on this thread do not represent a purchasing market. Like many I thought the reviews of that car seemed to indicate it was just the sort of thing we should want to meet the criteria often espoused but did Bristol actually sell any of that car?

I have been a long term Porsche owner and fan of their cars but to be honest the roll neck sweater air-cooled 911 swanning around is just as pretentious as any modern super car clique. Far too easy to poke fun at others.

On the question of would I if I had the money, well for me personally its a definite no because I raced a bit but don't have the time or money to give it a proper go again like I would like to. 30k to 40k PA to spend and plenty of spare time I would be back in there like a shot for sure. Racing also changes your perspective of cars into being much more objective about what the thing does, I can see this in some of the other posters who I know from PH are racers themselves. All the romanticism goes out the window, personally I have a soft spot for much about pre-74 911s but it has to be said the brakes are shockingly bad (and they had best of the type brakes) and the interiors all bits of stuff that falls off to easily. The cars are exciting to be in just doing 30 mph down to the shops which is what a lot of people are looking for these days. The prices being asked for them though make them objectively nonsensical as a driving proposition except for the exceptionally rich (the sort that don't mind DDing and devaluing a 200k classic).

I can remember years ago trying to follow a bloke in a Lambo Murcielago down a dual carriageway, he kept blasting along for a few seconds then lifting off so I could catch up with him. After about the 3rd run I pulled alongside to look at him he must have been 40+ but was grinning and laughing like a 5yr old. I couldn't help but laugh and smile myself. If a supercar can do that for you then hell yes buy the thing, if they don't make you grin like a 5 yr old any more then just move on but I think everyone should have a go in one at least once to see what it does for them.

[k-ink]

I was at a car show a little while back this summer. I was looking at an original GT40. My jaw was on the floor. It was so damn cool. I was in absolute love with the looks and sounds.

I have not had that reaction from a single modern super car. Even when the factory black P1 went past our house, well before they came out. They may have amazing engineering but they don't cause any kind of emotional reaction inside. For me anyway. Much like all the new cars.

[Davey S2]

NJH said:

What is interesting is that the failure of Bristol and their Fighter model seems to suggest that many of the opinions on this thread do not represent a purchasing market. Like many I thought the reviews of that car seemed to indicate it was just the sort of thing we should want to meet the criteria often espoused but did Bristol actually sell any of that car?

Bristols are just bonkers cars and you have to be bonkers to buy one.

Although the Fighter was a lot better then the previous models it was still a weird looking thing.

Interior was interesting too

[The Moose]

mwstewart said:

The Moose said:

Personally I love a beautiful flat 6 (or screaming V10!!).

I do love the S54 in my M3 - I'd find it hard to part with. Lamborghini V10 is sublime equipped with a Tubi, but then the V12 in the 599 GTO is absolutely epic:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9ld_K-7-4Y

You'd need a lot of restraint to drive it in the UK.

That does sound nice.

I like:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6o0bV3pmNI

No, I love it

(and I don't mean the S-Max after a minute or two!!)

[Nice But Dim]

bqf said:

The Crack Fox said:

bqf said:

I genuinely think there is a gap in the market for a manual sports car, with no driving aids, styled beautifully, offered in understated colours with a well-crafted interior.

Frontline MGB. I am not a fan of the original MGB, but this is in a different league, inside and out and on the road.

I don't know, but i'm guessing that is hilariously expensive

Prices from: £86,475.00

[Shnozz]

Alpinestars said:

RobM77 said:

his is the essence of the McLaren F1 that makes it my dream car, and I've wondered ever since the F1 was launched how much a version would cost with a 300bhp n/a V6 instead of a 600bhp+ n/a V12, and with that weight saving in the engine, whether less costly and exotic materials could be used to build it whilst maintaining the same kerb weight (and of course improving the weight distribution). The result would be a car that had a revvy and sonorous 300bhp, 1000kg, central driving position, no driver aids, impeccable quality from bespoke parts, and understated but elegant and beautiful styling. I suspect such a car would cost around £300k though, and I doubt many people would part with that sort of cash for it. I would if I had the money, but then again I'd buy a GT86 with 'only' 200bhp or an NSX with 'only' 276bhp (ish), and in the past I've put my money where my mouth is and bought plenty of cars like this instead of more powerful and faster options.

NSX was disappointing IMO.

GT86 is good fun but needs a bit more power.

Alfa 4C seemed to be fairly ideal on paper (in the flesh I was disappointed with some of the finish).

Exotic in terms of look and chassis tech, reasonable size wise to hassle a country lane and like a shrunken supercar. Not too dissimilar to how people tend to view the Exige. Perhaps a bit too gokart for some but then the awkwardness is part of the whole unique nature of anything exotic is it not? The fact its difficult to use and compromised is part and parcel of the exotics, else you'd just buy an RS6 and have the same performance but practicality and GT capabilities to boot.

[RobM77]

Shnozz said:

Alpinestars said:

RobM77 said:

his is the essence of the McLaren F1 that makes it my dream car, and I've wondered ever since the F1 was launched how much a version would cost with a 300bhp n/a V6 instead of a 600bhp+ n/a V12, and with that weight saving in the engine, whether less costly and exotic materials could be used to build it whilst maintaining the same kerb weight (and of course improving the weight distribution). The result would be a car that had a revvy and sonorous 300bhp, 1000kg, central driving position, no driver aids, impeccable quality from bespoke parts, and understated but elegant and beautiful styling. I suspect such a car would cost around £300k though, and I doubt many people would part with that sort of cash for it. I would if I had the money, but then again I'd buy a GT86 with 'only' 200bhp or an NSX with 'only' 276bhp (ish), and in the past I've put my money where my mouth is and bought plenty of cars like this instead of more powerful and faster options.

NSX was disappointing IMO.

GT86 is good fun but needs a bit more power.

Alfa 4C seemed to be fairly ideal on paper (in the flesh I was disappointed with some of the finish).

Exotic in terms of look and chassis tech, reasonable size wise to hassle a country lane and like a shrunken supercar. Not too dissimilar to how people tend to view the Exige. Perhaps a bit too gokart for some but then the awkwardness is part of the whole unique nature of anything exotic is it not? The fact its difficult to use and compromised is part and parcel of the exotics, else you'd just buy an RS6 and have the same performance but practicality and GT capabilities to boot.

I don't think a car boils down to just degrees of "performance" and "difficult to use and compromised". I think those two aspects are a fairly minor part of most people's purchase of an interesting car.

[av185]

marshall100 said:

I thought the point about supercars was that they were all hilariously awful? I've driven a few on track and I can only imagine how bad they'd be to try and live with, especially in London.

Was coaxing some life back into my brothers Ferrari 308 at the weekend, it's a horrible thing really, but I admire it, warts and all. Lovely sound too.

Always makes one chortle hearing the old 'imperfection is perfection' chestnut ( same with women), regularly spouted by the 'beards' and their old decaying tat. (Not that I am implying you are in this category nor that the the 308 is tat btw!).

I find there is a major distinction between imperfection and character.

And on the subject of women, it intrigues me how the ones with at least half a brain and non ' gold diggas' invairiably find a chap in a 'supercar' somewhat chavvy and vulgar, whereas if they drive an 60s Austin Cambridge, Morris Minor traveller with wood bits hanging off or something equally horrific they think you are uber cool....

Edited by av185 on Wednesday 3rd August 13:45

[Shnozz]

RobM77 said:

I don't think a car boils down to just degrees of "performance" and "difficult to use and compromised". I think those two aspects are a fairly minor part of most people's purchase of an interesting car.

Neither do I. However, as discussed on this thread, modern day performance of the less compromised has narrowed the gap between the crazy and the normal. An RS6, or on a lower level a Golf R, will deliver 99% of the performance of their ££ "sports" counterparts. In turn, justifying the sports/super cars is less about performance and more about style in some respects. Back in the 80s you didn't have the option really of matching the performance of a supercar with an estate car made from a commonplace marque. Extreme solutions often meant compromised shapes, luggage or whatever and the trade off was the performance a world apart from the day to day models on the roads. What you lost in performance you gained in practicality and vice versa. That line is blurred now and I can't think back to an era when that was the case.

[Ozzie Osmond]

av185 said:

Always makes one chortle hearing the old 'imperfection is perfection' chestnut, regularly spouted by the 'beards' and their old decaying tat.

Yes, I thought the post lauding Morgan's geriatric 3-wheeler was particularly hilarious.

It seems everyone's got an excuse for not buying an expensive sportscar. Few have the guts to say, "I'd like to have one of those but can't afford it", or "I'd love to have one of those but am worried about where to park it".

Regarding Ferrari, all the ones I've driven have put a big smile on my face. I certainly wasn't sitting there tapping the plastics to see if they compared favourably with some tedious hatchback.

[RobM77]

Shnozz said:

RobM77 said:

I don't think a car boils down to just degrees of "performance" and "difficult to use and compromised". I think those two aspects are a fairly minor part of most people's purchase of an interesting car.

Neither do I. However, as discussed on this thread, modern day performance of the less compromised has narrowed the gap between the crazy and the normal. An RS6, or on a lower level a Golf R, will deliver 99% of the performance of their ££ "sports" counterparts. In turn, justifying the sports/super cars is less about performance and more about style in some respects. Back in the 80s you didn't have the option really of matching the performance of a supercar with an estate car made from a commonplace marque. Extreme solutions often meant compromised shapes, luggage or whatever and the trade off was the performance a world apart from the day to day models on the roads. What you lost in performance you gained in practicality and vice versa. That line is blurred now and I can't think back to an era when that was the case.

I completely agree. The performance aspect of a fast road car is in my opinion irrelevant on the road once you get beyond something reasonably quick (so I agree with the OP). Personally I tend to buy cars on how they feel to drive and how they respond at legal and safe speeds.

[POORCARDEALER]

Recent Farraris are beautifully built.