Would you still go Diesel...
Discussion
I'm about to temporarily take our trusty (restored & modified) 1991 w124 300D Turbo off the road for some more modification and have my wife drive a well-equipped E350 Bluetec wagon, instead.
As standard, the E350 Bluetec, having urea solution injected into exhaust gases just before they reach both catalysers, offers low emissions, meeting Euro 6 standards. This means much lower NOx emissions, not lower CO & CO2 emissions, but something much on par with a Euro 6 petrol engine, I'd assume.
It's about 15% better on economy and has about double the torque of the 1991 Benz, but the older car will always be the better one for its design, integrity of engineering, build quality and ride. So much for progress...
With the advent of low emissions rules, there isn't any solution yet, to produce much less pollution, with transportation. Electric cars have large carbon footprints in their manufacturing and in terms of energy losses through conversion from one form to another, are inefficient. When the primary form of stored energy is coal, oil or nuclear power and much less so wind or solar, the benefits are somewhat questionable.
Not least, the current form of electric cars will become obsolete if in future a generic battery pack solution becomes an industry norm and petrol stations run a battery exchange programme. It'll happen someday, it's clearly the solution, but it will take time, investment and acceptance. Hybrids are an interesting medium, where someone using electric power needs longer driving range abilities and convenience.
Drove a friend's recent model Prius for a couple of days a few weeks ago. Was impressively economic, for a 1.8L petrol-engined car, but numbingly boring to drive for a car enthusiast. Never driven an electric car, only been in a couple, but despite their torque, they do nothing for my pulse rate.
I'll drive visceral sounding cars with manual boxes till I no longer can drive. Diesels, I could give up, though it would be hard to give up on the indestructible and supremely comfortable w124.
So meanwhile, we'll continue to run diesel for our daily cars and petrol for our fun cars.
As standard, the E350 Bluetec, having urea solution injected into exhaust gases just before they reach both catalysers, offers low emissions, meeting Euro 6 standards. This means much lower NOx emissions, not lower CO & CO2 emissions, but something much on par with a Euro 6 petrol engine, I'd assume.
It's about 15% better on economy and has about double the torque of the 1991 Benz, but the older car will always be the better one for its design, integrity of engineering, build quality and ride. So much for progress...
With the advent of low emissions rules, there isn't any solution yet, to produce much less pollution, with transportation. Electric cars have large carbon footprints in their manufacturing and in terms of energy losses through conversion from one form to another, are inefficient. When the primary form of stored energy is coal, oil or nuclear power and much less so wind or solar, the benefits are somewhat questionable.
Not least, the current form of electric cars will become obsolete if in future a generic battery pack solution becomes an industry norm and petrol stations run a battery exchange programme. It'll happen someday, it's clearly the solution, but it will take time, investment and acceptance. Hybrids are an interesting medium, where someone using electric power needs longer driving range abilities and convenience.
Drove a friend's recent model Prius for a couple of days a few weeks ago. Was impressively economic, for a 1.8L petrol-engined car, but numbingly boring to drive for a car enthusiast. Never driven an electric car, only been in a couple, but despite their torque, they do nothing for my pulse rate.
I'll drive visceral sounding cars with manual boxes till I no longer can drive. Diesels, I could give up, though it would be hard to give up on the indestructible and supremely comfortable w124.
So meanwhile, we'll continue to run diesel for our daily cars and petrol for our fun cars.
Petrolism said:
With the advent of low emissions rules, there isn't any solution yet, to produce much less pollution, with transportation. Electric cars have large carbon footprints in their manufacturing and in terms of energy losses through conversion from one form to another, are inefficient. When the primary form of stored energy is coal, oil or nuclear power and much less so wind or solar, the benefits are somewhat questionable.
Bulls
t. An EV (which is likely produced using a high percentage of renewable power anyhow) has a lifetime CO2 cost of half an ICE car with the worst possible energy mix in the USA. UK is rapidly reducing its co2 emissions for grid electricity and has barely used any coal this year.
And an average EV can go 16 miles on the energy used just to refine a gallon of petrol. not to extract it, not to transport it, not to burn it, just to refine it.
Edited by RobDickinson on Monday 29th June 02:54
I bought my first ever diesel in December and I'm very happy with it, I'd buy it again tomorrow no problem. A fair bit of our driving is done on hilly moorland roads, and virtually none in urban areas, and for this a diesel does seem to make sense. Can't argue with the comments about the noise they make though - having previously had a flat-6 petrol that was preternaturally smooth, the D5 in my current car is like a bloody canal boat. Anybody that says modern diesels are 'whisper quiet' or 'refined' must be either deaf or off their head.
Butter Face said:
FN2TypeR said:
John Locke said:
No, apart from the awful noise, stink and poor power delivery, diesel just says: "I can just about manage the monthly payments, but only if I can save 10% on the fuel bill."
Embarrassing.
Peak PistonheadsEmbarrassing.
I don't see any scenario I would be buying a diesel at this time. I don't need to tow, I don't need a 4x4 for long distances, and I don't need a van. An Outlander PHEV would probably be the answer for several of those scenarios, so unless my budget was crushed I can't see why I would.
Petrolism said:
With the advent of low emissions rules, there isn't any solution yet, to produce much less pollution, with transportation. Electric cars have large carbon footprints in their manufacturing and in terms of energy losses through conversion from one form to another, are inefficient. When the primary form of stored energy is coal, oil or nuclear power and much less so wind or solar, the benefits are somewhat questionable.
Not least, the current form of electric cars will become obsolete if in future a generic battery pack solution becomes an industry norm and petrol stations run a battery exchange programme. It'll happen someday, it's clearly the solution, but it will take time, investment and acceptance. Hybrids are an interesting medium, where someone using electric power needs longer driving range abilities and convenience.
I'm not sure why people still believe, and worst post, this rubbish? Not least, the current form of electric cars will become obsolete if in future a generic battery pack solution becomes an industry norm and petrol stations run a battery exchange programme. It'll happen someday, it's clearly the solution, but it will take time, investment and acceptance. Hybrids are an interesting medium, where someone using electric power needs longer driving range abilities and convenience.
Bought an F30 330D in January. Very happy with it. Was doing 500 miles a week pre covid and I'm not aware of many petrol cars that you can fill up on a Sunday and not need to fill up before getting home on a Friday. Went for the 6 cylinder as they really are a lot smoother and quieter than the 4 cylinder lumps and considering the performance available they are really quite economical. For everyday use with the miles that I normally do I just prefer a diesel, this is probably the first one I've had that I can say I enjoy driving though.
FN2TypeR said:
John Locke said:
No, apart from the awful noise, stink and poor power delivery, diesel just says: "I can just about manage the monthly payments, but only if I can save 10% on the fuel bill."
Embarrassing.
Peak PistonheadsEmbarrassing.
The only people anti-diesel snobs are embarrassing are themselves. I'd imagine the low down torque of the diesel will work well in the X5 you'll lose some refinement over the petrol though.
Drive them both and see which one you prefer as there won't be a huge difference in running costs with the type of driving you mentioned.
Depreciation will be the biggest cost, not sure which one will be better for that.
Drive them both and see which one you prefer as there won't be a huge difference in running costs with the type of driving you mentioned.
Depreciation will be the biggest cost, not sure which one will be better for that.
RobDickinson said:
UK is rapidly reducing its co2 emissions for grid electricity and has barely used any coal this year.
Coal use has dropped mostly because many of the coal fired stations now burn gas.Edited by RobDickinson on Monday 29th June 02:54
Renewables are of course growing, and on some days in ideal conditions are our single largest source of electricity, but averaged over a quarter more of our energy still comes from burning gas.
https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/data-portal/electricity-g...
Jaguar steve said:
FN2TypeR said:
John Locke said:
No, apart from the awful noise, stink and poor power delivery, diesel just says: "I can just about manage the monthly payments, but only if I can save 10% on the fuel bill."
Embarrassing.
Peak PistonheadsEmbarrassing.
The only people anti-diesel snobs are embarrassing are themselves. I have no need for a diesel as dont do many miles, but I dont get the "never in a million years" thing, if you ended up doing 40k a year then I suspect tunes would be changed and suddenly get an interest in diesels.
Its all very well being a purist about lovely V8's and all that but thatrs either doing no miles or having plenty of money to put fuel in, it isnt like that for everybody. People do make decisions based on economics and it isnt like John Lockes vitriol filled comment, it can cost twice as much in fuel to run a big petrol vs a diesel, plus the VED, so thats why there are so many Golf GTD's and 320D's.
Certain vehicles, like superminis didnt really need a diesel option, hence why you never really see a diesel Citroen C1 or similar, but bigger stuff to get any sensible MPG from say a Discovery, diesel is the only option for most owners as 12 mpg in a V8 version does smart a bit, and most dont want extra tanks an Halfords 99p petrol caps that come with LPG conversions.
A lot of manufacturers are dropping diesel entirely, Volvo, Porsche, Mini for example, the others are going that way but we have a difficult situation where distance drivers love diesel for the low down torque, ecomomy and range, an EV would do the job on the torque and economy but doesnt go far enough before stopping because its run out of volts.
We then have a heartland of big SUV's still with big diesels, fien when new but they turn into a pain in the arse as they get older, injectors, turbos, DPF's and all that, diesel is the wrong way to fuel anything that operates in cities, iteither gases people properly or you have to inject piss so it doesnt choke them.
I think if the promised Solid State batteries arrive, diesel will get dropped like a stone, until then I think they will be around a while longer.
I quite like how they drive by and large, a nice big diesel engine with an auto box in a comfy package is a pretty compelling package for munching miles, most of the time having a V8/V12 petrol doesnt make that much difference, say at 80 on the motorway and you dont want a Clio 197 Cup something or other to do 300 miles in, horses for courses.
Its all very well being a purist about lovely V8's and all that but thatrs either doing no miles or having plenty of money to put fuel in, it isnt like that for everybody. People do make decisions based on economics and it isnt like John Lockes vitriol filled comment, it can cost twice as much in fuel to run a big petrol vs a diesel, plus the VED, so thats why there are so many Golf GTD's and 320D's.
Certain vehicles, like superminis didnt really need a diesel option, hence why you never really see a diesel Citroen C1 or similar, but bigger stuff to get any sensible MPG from say a Discovery, diesel is the only option for most owners as 12 mpg in a V8 version does smart a bit, and most dont want extra tanks an Halfords 99p petrol caps that come with LPG conversions.
A lot of manufacturers are dropping diesel entirely, Volvo, Porsche, Mini for example, the others are going that way but we have a difficult situation where distance drivers love diesel for the low down torque, ecomomy and range, an EV would do the job on the torque and economy but doesnt go far enough before stopping because its run out of volts.
We then have a heartland of big SUV's still with big diesels, fien when new but they turn into a pain in the arse as they get older, injectors, turbos, DPF's and all that, diesel is the wrong way to fuel anything that operates in cities, iteither gases people properly or you have to inject piss so it doesnt choke them.
I think if the promised Solid State batteries arrive, diesel will get dropped like a stone, until then I think they will be around a while longer.
I quite like how they drive by and large, a nice big diesel engine with an auto box in a comfy package is a pretty compelling package for munching miles, most of the time having a V8/V12 petrol doesnt make that much difference, say at 80 on the motorway and you dont want a Clio 197 Cup something or other to do 300 miles in, horses for courses.
The problem is trying to find a decent petrol car when probably 90% plus of the cars you want are diesel, and they are not renowned for the excellence of their petrol engines which will cost you a few thousand more than the equivalent diesel as well.
That's assuming you are buying second hand, slightly older cars.
There are some good diesel bargains around at the moment and they are likely to get cheaper as the tide against them grows, and if you are not inclined to drive into the big cities and get hammered for emission charges, then they still make sense.
Well they do to me anyway.
That's assuming you are buying second hand, slightly older cars.
There are some good diesel bargains around at the moment and they are likely to get cheaper as the tide against them grows, and if you are not inclined to drive into the big cities and get hammered for emission charges, then they still make sense.
Well they do to me anyway.
C7 JFW said:
Diesel only seems worthwhile if:
- 20k miles per annum (or more)
- Predominantly motorway driving
- At least a 3 series size car, preferably 5 with ample sound proofing
Otherwise, no.
Yeh, you tell em. All those millions of johhny foreigners running round in their little diesel golfs/fiats eh. - 20k miles per annum (or more)
- Predominantly motorway driving
- At least a 3 series size car, preferably 5 with ample sound proofing
Otherwise, no.
Edited by C7 JFW on Monday 29th June 09:28
I bought a 530d just before lockdown - epic fail as my commute has disappeared over night, however, i still bloody love it - its a fabulous, effortless way to travel and with all that torque.
That said now I'm doing next to no miles doing 40mpg is less interesting and im pining for M5's if it weren't going to be a very upsetting trade in conversation. The big 6 cylinder diesels are still a very nice way to travel and IMO sound pretty good too!
That said now I'm doing next to no miles doing 40mpg is less interesting and im pining for M5's if it weren't going to be a very upsetting trade in conversation. The big 6 cylinder diesels are still a very nice way to travel and IMO sound pretty good too!
Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff