RE: Next BMW M3 confirmed as all-wheel drive...

[Olivera]

jamoor said:

Are they a pig to drive? The F10 M5 certainly is.

If you want to mash the throttle spasmodically regardless of conditions, then probably yes.

[Ares]

RobM77 said:

Ares said:

FocusRS3 said:

Cups Renault said:

BMW continuing their journey into irrelevance.

Terrible news for proper BMW fans, great news for Audi drivers.

I await news of the next phase m2 going 4 pot and all wheel drive.

I agree. To me the 'M' fun is the slidey back end but then also having the settings to catch you.

there will be a fair few that walk away from this car

Except the new M3 still has the RWD ability. Which is it is only half has good as the M5's identical system, will be ****ing brilliant. Best of both worlds.

Not really, because you still have the weight of all the 4WD gubbins.

Ah, so it isn't the 'slidey back end' thats important, it's the potential for extra weight.....And what weight will that be?? 1%? 2%? - as much as a tank of fuel? There isn't much weight in making a RWD AWD

Impossible to tell with the M5 as the new AWD one is 45kg lighter than the RWD it replaces. And in an era of heavy specs (and overweight drivers ), the extra weight will be nothing compared to the weight of the chip on the shoulders of the 'purists'

[Ares]

Olivera said:

RobM77 said:

Ares said:

Except the new M3 still has the RWD ability. Which is it is only half has good as the M5's identical system, will be ****ing brilliant. Best of both worlds.

Not really, because you still have the weight of all the 4WD gubbins.

Indeed, switchable 4WD in RWD mode is carrying the dead weight of an extra diff(s) and driveshafts. It's significantly crapper than just a RWD only solution.

If you've driven a previous gen M5 compared to the new M5, you wouldn't say that.

[Ares]

jamoor said:

Olivera said:

jamoor said:

The F10 M5 was too powerful for 2wd. These cars have become too powerful for 2wd only.

You need to pass that on to Ferrari and McLaren, as both are making RWD coupes with 700+ bhp.

Are they a pig to drive? The F10 M5 certainly is.

Is is a Ferrari/McLaren's USP the ability to drive 365 days per year? Or are they cars that are designed to be driven in perfect conditions only....and even then, can an average Joe/Joanne jump in a 700bhp+ Ferrari and McLaren jump in and drive it hard without any problem.....

[jamoor]

Olivera said:

jamoor said:

Are they a pig to drive? The F10 M5 certainly is.

If you want to mash the throttle spasmodically regardless of conditions, then probably yes.

You see this is what I don't get..

Get a 550hp twin turbo M5 and you can only use 70% of the performance. You may as well get a 400HP E39 and get to enjoy it to its full potental!

[E65Ross]

jamoor said:

Olivera said:

jamoor said:

Are they a pig to drive? The F10 M5 certainly is.

If you want to mash the throttle spasmodically regardless of conditions, then probably yes.

You see this is what I don't get..

Get a 550hp twin turbo M5 and you can only use 70% of the performance. You may as well get a 400HP E39 and get to enjoy it to its full potental!

I'm not sure if you're being serious or not, or whether you haven't read between the lines of his comment. I may be wrong but from his post I gathered it to be a case of "well, if you mash the throttle with some steering lock from low speeds then yes, you're going to spin, but if you are controlled or use the throttle when in a straight line then fine"

I have never driven an F10 M5, but I have driven the M6, you most certainly can use full throttle without ending in a hedge, and it is a much, much, much faster car than the E39 M5.

[Burwood]

jamoor said:

Olivera said:

jamoor said:

Are they a pig to drive? The F10 M5 certainly is.

If you want to mash the throttle spasmodically regardless of conditions, then probably yes.

You see this is what I don't get..

Get a 550hp twin turbo M5 and you can only use 70% of the performance. You may as well get a 400HP E39 and get to enjoy it to its full potental!

And that is absolutely valid if you have the skill or inclination. The vast majority don’t. I think I’m a good driver and have owned fast cars and driven super cars. I wouldn’t hang the ass out on any road. 90% of my driving is family stuff. I also live in the sticks so AWD a plus. I care not that some say it insures me against my driving skill.

[Terminator X]

Olivera said:

Indeed, switchable 4WD in RWD mode is carrying the dead weight of an extra diff(s) and driveshafts. It's significantly crapper than just a RWD only solution.

Surely though 99% of buyers will prefer it given they have 500hp ish to control? Driving God's of course must have as much power as possible driving the rear wheels.

TX.

[anonymous-user]

Ares said:

RobM77 said:

Ares said:

FocusRS3 said:

Cups Renault said:

BMW continuing their journey into irrelevance.

Terrible news for proper BMW fans, great news for Audi drivers.

I await news of the next phase m2 going 4 pot and all wheel drive.

I agree. To me the 'M' fun is the slidey back end but then also having the settings to catch you.

there will be a fair few that walk away from this car

Except the new M3 still has the RWD ability. Which is it is only half has good as the M5's identical system, will be ****ing brilliant. Best of both worlds.

The extra weight IS significant, and more significant with what the 4wd limits in terms of engine position. The transfer case, centre diff, front prop, front diff, front halfshafts and drive-through front hubs add around 60 to 100 kg, but all because you now need a cross shaft between the front wheels, the previously low engine has to rise up enough from that cross shaft to go under the crank........
Not really, because you still have the weight of all the 4WD gubbins.

Ah, so it isn't the 'slidey back end' thats important, it's the potential for extra weight.....And what weight will that be?? 1%? 2%? - as much as a tank of fuel? There isn't much weight in making a RWD AWD

Impossible to tell with the M5 as the new AWD one is 45kg lighter than the RWD it replaces. And in an era of heavy specs (and overweight drivers ), the extra weight will be nothing compared to the weight of the chip on the shoulders of the 'purists'

[RobM77]

Ares said:

RobM77 said:

Ares said:

FocusRS3 said:

Cups Renault said:

BMW continuing their journey into irrelevance.

Terrible news for proper BMW fans, great news for Audi drivers.

I await news of the next phase m2 going 4 pot and all wheel drive.

I agree. To me the 'M' fun is the slidey back end but then also having the settings to catch you.

there will be a fair few that walk away from this car

Except the new M3 still has the RWD ability. Which is it is only half has good as the M5's identical system, will be ****ing brilliant. Best of both worlds.

Not really, because you still have the weight of all the 4WD gubbins.

Ah, so it isn't the 'slidey back end' thats important, it's the potential for extra weight.....And what weight will that be?? 1%? 2%? - as much as a tank of fuel? There isn't much weight in making a RWD AWD

Impossible to tell with the M5 as the new AWD one is 45kg lighter than the RWD it replaces. And in an era of heavy specs (and overweight drivers ), the extra weight will be nothing compared to the weight of the chip on the shoulders of the 'purists'

I think it was me that brought up weight - I'm not that bothered by power oversteer, I just like a car to be balanced through the bends and responsive in handling. Having owned and driven plenty of FWD, 4WD and RWD cars, I have a strong preference for RWD.

According to weights I've found online, xDrive adds 80kg to 95kg to the car, which is a passenger and a boot full of luggage, so yes, it does make a noticeable difference. Furthermore, that weight is up front, making the car nose heavy. As I said earlier, if they stopped chasing numbers and made the M3 'just' 400bhp it would need less of this heavy engineering on board and smaller wheels and tyres, so would almost certainly drive better.


320i vs 320i xDrive adds 80kg
https://www.carfolio.com/specifications/models/car...
https://www.carfolio.com/specifications/models/car...


330i vs 330i xDrive adds 95kg:
https://www.carfolio.com/specifications/models/car...
https://www.carfolio.com/specifications/models/car...

[FA57REN]

Perhaps it's time for an additional driving license category for cars with over 200bhp/tonne or thereabouts. Certainly I don't trust Buff Gym Dude's ability to move from a Golf GTi to an M5.

Additional hours of training and a test conducted on a track... harmonised Europe-wide it might discourage this hyper-power nonsense.

[RobM77]

FA57REN said:

Perhaps it's time for an additional driving license category for cars with over 200bhp/tonne or thereabouts. Certainly I don't trust Buff Gym Dude's ability to move from a Golf GTi to an M5.

Additional hours of training and a test conducted on a track... harmonised Europe-wide it might discourage this hyper-power nonsense.

You never know, better skills may lead to a deeper appreciation of driving and less focus on power and performance in a car. I've raced in a variety of cars for 18 years and the overwhelming majority of the friends I've made through racing, whether professional or amateur, aren't hugely interested in road cars, and those who are interested aren't that bothered about big power. Most drive modest FE/RWD cars such as the 1 or 3 series, often with modified suspension or driving position (seat, wheel, pedals etc), but rarely with powerful engines or mods to the engine.

[Terminator X]

RobM77 said:

I think it was me that brought up weight - I'm not that bothered by power oversteer, I just like a car to be balanced through the bends and responsive in handling. Having owned and driven plenty of FWD, 4WD and RWD cars, I have a strong preference for RWD.

According to weights I've found online, xDrive adds 80kg to 95kg to the car, which is a passenger and a boot full of luggage, so yes, it does make a noticeable difference. Furthermore, that weight is up front, making the car nose heavy. As I said earlier, if they stopped chasing numbers and made the M3 'just' 400bhp it would need less of this heavy engineering on board and smaller wheels and tyres, so would almost certainly drive better.


320i vs 320i xDrive adds 80kg
https://www.carfolio.com/specifications/models/car...
https://www.carfolio.com/specifications/models/car...


330i vs 330i xDrive adds 95kg:
https://www.carfolio.com/specifications/models/car...
https://www.carfolio.com/specifications/models/car...

All M cars are 50/50 on weight though? Maybe even all BM's?

TX.

[E65Ross]

Terminator X said:

All M cars are 50/50 on weight though? Maybe even all BM's?

TX.

I think the new M5 is actually nearer 52/48. Hardly horrendous I shouldn't have thought. Basically all of the reviews seem to say it handles well enough for a big saloon car.

[Ares]

RobM77 said:

I think it was me that brought up weight - I'm not that bothered by power oversteer, I just like a car to be balanced through the bends and responsive in handling. Having owned and driven plenty of FWD, 4WD and RWD cars, I have a strong preference for RWD.

According to weights I've found online, xDrive adds 80kg to 95kg to the car, which is a passenger and a boot full of luggage, so yes, it does make a noticeable difference. Furthermore, that weight is up front, making the car nose heavy. As I said earlier, if they stopped chasing numbers and made the M3 'just' 400bhp it would need less of this heavy engineering on board and smaller wheels and tyres, so would almost certainly drive better.


320i vs 320i xDrive adds 80kg
https://www.carfolio.com/specifications/models/car...
https://www.carfolio.com/specifications/models/car...


330i vs 330i xDrive adds 95kg:
https://www.carfolio.com/specifications/models/car...
https://www.carfolio.com/specifications/models/car...

Doesn't mean the M5 is as bad, or the M3 with the same system...but that it still only the difference between a full tank of fuel.
As for balanced, it still has 50/50 weight distribution, and having driven it back-to-back with the F10, and on road and track, it is more balance, more sure-footed and communicative in it's handling and certainly more responsive.

I'm perhaps doping you a disservice, but I suspect you haven't driven the new M5. As are most that blindly criticise it's AWD move. Much as with the E63, these really isn't a complain to be levied. The minimal weight gain is irrelevant in a car weighing approaching 2-tonnes, and the upsides significantly outweigh it.

As for the lighter/400bhp...they are rumoured to be launching it as a pure model, but we all know it won't sell as well, as the M3 has never been about being a lightweight sports car.

[J4CKO]

I think us blokes are the problem, we get all competitive and want more, bigger, better faster.

The M5 has always been a fast car, but along with the others its got absolutely ridiculous, 600 odd bhp and does 100 mph in 6.8 seconds which is all very impressive and I wouldn't say no, but what on earth is the point ? its got so silly but now the manufacturers are locked in a power battle so they wont back down and us blokes still want more.

When a new car comes out, like the Supra for example, apparently at 4 sec to 60 and 9 ish to 100 it isnt fast enough, fast enough for what ? leaving the earths atmosphere ?

A bit Swiss Toni, but Its probably a good thing that us chaps dont get to spec our own "bedroom weaponry" as I suspect we would mostly choose something several feet long, with the diameter or a drainpipe given half a chance, Thats kind of the equivalent if you draw a parallel between that and using the potential of an M5 on the road, complete overkill for the job in hand.

If two 30 cm wide sticky rubber things with 2 tonnes of weight pressing down onto them cant provide enough grip, then you probably have a bit too much power


Its like we all craved power and straight line performance, so we kept demanding more and sort of overshot what was required by some margin.

[Ares]

J4CKO said:

I think us blokes are the problem, we get all competitive and want more, bigger, better faster.

The M5 has always been a fast car, but along with the others its got absolutely ridiculous, 600 odd bhp and does 100 mph in 6.8 seconds which is all very impressive and I wouldn't say no, but what on earth is the point ? its got so silly but now the manufacturers are locked in a power battle so they wont back down and us blokes still want more.

When a new car comes out, like the Supra for example, apparently at 4 sec to 60 and 9 ish to 100 it isnt fast enough, fast enough for what ? leaving the earths atmosphere ?

A bit Swiss Toni, but Its probably a good thing that us chaps dont get to spec our own "bedroom weaponry" as I suspect we would mostly choose something several feet long, with the diameter or a drainpipe given half a chance, Thats kind of the equivalent if you draw a parallel between that and using the potential of an M5 on the road, complete overkill for the job in hand.

If two 30 cm wide sticky rubber things with 2 tonnes of weight pressing down onto them cant provide enough grip, then you probably have a bit too much power


Its like we all craved power and straight line performance, so we kept demanding more and sort of overshot what was required by some margin.

They also play to markets outside of the UK though where roads and speed is a level (or 2) above....plus the technology they invest in the top models filters down.

The M5 has always been a luxury saloon with supercar performance. It is arguably just occupying the same space.

[J4CKO]

Ares said:

J4CKO said:

I think us blokes are the problem, we get all competitive and want more, bigger, better faster.

The M5 has always been a fast car, but along with the others its got absolutely ridiculous, 600 odd bhp and does 100 mph in 6.8 seconds which is all very impressive and I wouldn't say no, but what on earth is the point ? its got so silly but now the manufacturers are locked in a power battle so they wont back down and us blokes still want more.

When a new car comes out, like the Supra for example, apparently at 4 sec to 60 and 9 ish to 100 it isnt fast enough, fast enough for what ? leaving the earths atmosphere ?

A bit Swiss Toni, but Its probably a good thing that us chaps dont get to spec our own "bedroom weaponry" as I suspect we would mostly choose something several feet long, with the diameter or a drainpipe given half a chance, Thats kind of the equivalent if you draw a parallel between that and using the potential of an M5 on the road, complete overkill for the job in hand.

If two 30 cm wide sticky rubber things with 2 tonnes of weight pressing down onto them cant provide enough grip, then you probably have a bit too much power


Its like we all craved power and straight line performance, so we kept demanding more and sort of overshot what was required by some margin.

They also play to markets outside of the UK though where roads and speed is a level (or 2) above....plus the technology they invest in the top models filters down.

The M5 has always been a luxury saloon with supercar performance. It is arguably just occupying the same space.

Yes, true, what are the markets other than the Autobahn though ? i.e. a dwindling percentage of the German Motorway network.

Its the same space, and dont get me wrong I would have one but as the years march on more and more performance is being added, and I love it but increasingly wonder what the point is.

Suppose there doesnt need to be a point.

[E65Ross]

J4CKO said:

Ares said:

J4CKO said:

I think us blokes are the problem, we get all competitive and want more, bigger, better faster.

The M5 has always been a fast car, but along with the others its got absolutely ridiculous, 600 odd bhp and does 100 mph in 6.8 seconds which is all very impressive and I wouldn't say no, but what on earth is the point ? its got so silly but now the manufacturers are locked in a power battle so they wont back down and us blokes still want more.

When a new car comes out, like the Supra for example, apparently at 4 sec to 60 and 9 ish to 100 it isnt fast enough, fast enough for what ? leaving the earths atmosphere ?

A bit Swiss Toni, but Its probably a good thing that us chaps dont get to spec our own "bedroom weaponry" as I suspect we would mostly choose something several feet long, with the diameter or a drainpipe given half a chance, Thats kind of the equivalent if you draw a parallel between that and using the potential of an M5 on the road, complete overkill for the job in hand.

If two 30 cm wide sticky rubber things with 2 tonnes of weight pressing down onto them cant provide enough grip, then you probably have a bit too much power


Its like we all craved power and straight line performance, so we kept demanding more and sort of overshot what was required by some margin.

They also play to markets outside of the UK though where roads and speed is a level (or 2) above....plus the technology they invest in the top models filters down.

The M5 has always been a luxury saloon with supercar performance. It is arguably just occupying the same space.

Yes, true, what are the markets other than the Autobahn though ? i.e. a dwindling percentage of the German Motorway network.

Its the same space, and dont get me wrong I would have one but as the years march on more and more performance is being added, and I love it but increasingly wonder what the point is.

Suppose there doesnt need to be a point.

I suppose if people find a "point" in the performance of things like a 488GTB or a 720S then an M5 is most certainly a level down...

[RobM77]

Ares said:

RobM77 said:

I think it was me that brought up weight - I'm not that bothered by power oversteer, I just like a car to be balanced through the bends and responsive in handling. Having owned and driven plenty of FWD, 4WD and RWD cars, I have a strong preference for RWD.

According to weights I've found online, xDrive adds 80kg to 95kg to the car, which is a passenger and a boot full of luggage, so yes, it does make a noticeable difference. Furthermore, that weight is up front, making the car nose heavy. As I said earlier, if they stopped chasing numbers and made the M3 'just' 400bhp it would need less of this heavy engineering on board and smaller wheels and tyres, so would almost certainly drive better.


320i vs 320i xDrive adds 80kg
https://www.carfolio.com/specifications/models/car...
https://www.carfolio.com/specifications/models/car...


330i vs 330i xDrive adds 95kg:
https://www.carfolio.com/specifications/models/car...
https://www.carfolio.com/specifications/models/car...

Doesn't mean the M5 is as bad, or the M3 with the same system...but that it still only the difference between a full tank of fuel.

In what world does a tank of fuel weigh 95kg?! The F90 M5 has a 76L tank, which at 0.750kg per litre is 57kg.

https://f90.bimmerpost.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2...