RE: Why the Lotus Elise still matters | PH Footnote
Discussion
Not too sure about that. After the barren 80s, the mid 90s saw an explosion in small 2 seater roadsters:
Renault sport spyder yes. But also...
Alfa spider
Bmw z3 (with cachet of being in the latest Bond film)
Fiat barchetta
Mgf
Mx5 kn mk2 guise
Mercedes slk
Porsche boxster
And then the more left field TVR, but their chimera was a stong seller
GINETTA G27 too?
That is strong competition, with something to suit everyines tastes
The mk2 MX5
Renault sport spyder yes. But also...
Alfa spider
Bmw z3 (with cachet of being in the latest Bond film)
Fiat barchetta
Mgf
Mx5 kn mk2 guise
Mercedes slk
Porsche boxster
And then the more left field TVR, but their chimera was a stong seller
GINETTA G27 too?
That is strong competition, with something to suit everyines tastes
The mk2 MX5
williamp said:
Not too sure about that. After the barren 80s, the mid 90s saw an explosion in small 2 seater roadsters:
Renault sport spyder yes. But also...
Alfa spider
Bmw z3 (with cachet of being in the latest Bond film)
Fiat barchetta
Mgf
Mx5 kn mk2 guise
Mercedes slk
Porsche boxster
And then the more left field TVR, but their chimera was a stong seller
GINETTA G27 too?
That is strong competition, with something to suit everyines tastes
The mk2 MX5
Not sure it is real competition. Renault sport spyder yes. But also...
Alfa spider
Bmw z3 (with cachet of being in the latest Bond film)
Fiat barchetta
Mgf
Mx5 kn mk2 guise
Mercedes slk
Porsche boxster
And then the more left field TVR, but their chimera was a stong seller
GINETTA G27 too?
That is strong competition, with something to suit everyines tastes
The mk2 MX5
Most (all?) were dynamically inferior and those that were more refined (boxster and slk etc) were much more expensive. Anything at the price was significantly slower and dynamically far behind. At that time and at that price (circa 20k) the lack of refinement wasn't a big deal. But things have moved on and now the Elise is competing (on price) with cars that are comparably capable (if not as tactile and engaging) that are much more refined and practical.
Edited by bcr5784 on Saturday 10th August 08:37
bcr5784 said:
Not sure it is real competition.
Most (all?) were dynamically inferior and those that were more refined (boxster and slk etc) were much more expensive. Anything at the price was significantly slower and dynamically far behind. At that time and at that price (circa 20k) the lack of refinement wasn't a big deal. But things have moved on and now the Elise is competing (on price) with cars that are comparably capable (if not as tactile and engaging) that are much more refined and practical.
I wonder how many Elise’s were ever sold under £20k? I had the sales receipt for my S1 and it was nearly £27k in 1999 and I think standard list was circa £23k.Most (all?) were dynamically inferior and those that were more refined (boxster and slk etc) were much more expensive. Anything at the price was significantly slower and dynamically far behind. At that time and at that price (circa 20k) the lack of refinement wasn't a big deal. But things have moved on and now the Elise is competing (on price) with cars that are comparably capable (if not as tactile and engaging) that are much more refined and practical.
Edited by bcr5784 on Saturday 10th August 08:37
This always comes up and is damaging IMO as everyone seems to think the Elise should compete with the MX5 on price when it never has.
Special edition MX5’s were £18k in 1999, that’s a big difference - Elise was at least 27% more, some versions 60% more even back then. It’s always been niche.
giveitfish said:
I wonder how many Elise’s were ever sold under £20k? I had the sales receipt for my S1 and it was nearly £27k in 1999 and I think standard list was circa £23k.
This always comes up and is damaging IMO as everyone seems to think the Elise should compete with the MX5 on price when it never has.
Special edition MX5’s were £18k in 1999, that’s a big difference - Elise was at least 27% more, some versions 60% more even back then. It’s always been niche.
Parkers guide says £22700 - mine was almost certainly that as I didn't have any extras that I can recall unless yellow was extra.This always comes up and is damaging IMO as everyone seems to think the Elise should compete with the MX5 on price when it never has.
Special edition MX5’s were £18k in 1999, that’s a big difference - Elise was at least 27% more, some versions 60% more even back then. It’s always been niche.
bcr5784 said:
Not sure it is real competition.
Most (all?) were dynamically inferior and those that were more refined (boxster and slk etc) were much more expensive. Anything at the price was significantly slower and dynamically far behind. At that time and at that price (circa 20k) the lack of refinement wasn't a big deal. But things have moved on and now the Elise is competing (on price) with cars that are comparably capable (if not as tactile and engaging) that are much more refined and practical.
fair point about other cars becoming more comparable, and yet in many respects they're not.Most (all?) were dynamically inferior and those that were more refined (boxster and slk etc) were much more expensive. Anything at the price was significantly slower and dynamically far behind. At that time and at that price (circa 20k) the lack of refinement wasn't a big deal. But things have moved on and now the Elise is competing (on price) with cars that are comparably capable (if not as tactile and engaging) that are much more refined and practical.
Edited by bcr5784 on Saturday 10th August 08:37
back in the mid nineties french hatchbacks were much lighter and the MR2 existed (big omission from william's list).
the Elise 'ruins other sports cars' from the 90's as it still does now, and yet a blat in 106 Rallye has a direct pleasure missing from today's 'more capable' hatches, entirely weight related.
I bought my first Elise new in 1998. I sold my 97 MX5 to buy it. At the time cost to change was about £9k. My Elise was Calypso, cloth seats to keep cost down. £23.3 OTR.
As said that was significantly cheaper than a Boxster or 2.8 Z3 or SLK or Audi TT Cab. All of which had prices starting with a 3
The Elise was faster than all of them to 60mph, looked like a scaled down supercar and was unique in the driving experience it offered, in the late 90’s.
Other than a Caterham there was nothing used competing with it either.
Fast forward to now, a 220 Elise is still special to drive. It feels more substantial as well. Brakes well. Still steers like an Elise. I fancy one. The 250 has lovely seats but is imho a bit too hard as a road car.
Problem is the market is awash with other cars, many used, that compete with an Elise buyers money. The 4C looks amazing and is in many ways a modern Elise. It’s fast, economical and light. I can live with the gearbox. It’s the frighteningly numb steering that I struggle to get past. The oft mentioned Alfaworks mods don’t rectify that either.
Of course if you want a modern Elise it’s unlikely you want a 981 or a 4C or anything else. Other than perhaps a used Elise which offers much the same experience at a lower cost.
As said that was significantly cheaper than a Boxster or 2.8 Z3 or SLK or Audi TT Cab. All of which had prices starting with a 3
The Elise was faster than all of them to 60mph, looked like a scaled down supercar and was unique in the driving experience it offered, in the late 90’s.
Other than a Caterham there was nothing used competing with it either.
Fast forward to now, a 220 Elise is still special to drive. It feels more substantial as well. Brakes well. Still steers like an Elise. I fancy one. The 250 has lovely seats but is imho a bit too hard as a road car.
Problem is the market is awash with other cars, many used, that compete with an Elise buyers money. The 4C looks amazing and is in many ways a modern Elise. It’s fast, economical and light. I can live with the gearbox. It’s the frighteningly numb steering that I struggle to get past. The oft mentioned Alfaworks mods don’t rectify that either.
Of course if you want a modern Elise it’s unlikely you want a 981 or a 4C or anything else. Other than perhaps a used Elise which offers much the same experience at a lower cost.
I've had my 111S for around 20 years, and I love it still. I never seriously considered other vehicles when I bought it. Assorted Porkers were more usable, the Mx5 was cheaper, but mine has always been a 2nd car, so usability is not a huge issue, and I could afford the Lotus; ruling-out the Mx5. The smallness, lightness and (relatively) nippy performance sealed the deal. The Elise has plenty of performance in the situations in which I use it. It delivers when driving at 5/10ths as well as when pushing-on.
No need to enumerate all its virtues, nor its many faults lots of which have been fixed on later models. The Elise is not a practical daily driver, though I did use mine as such many years ago. Nothing can compare with arriving at Work after a breathless early-morning Summertime |(or crisp Winter) blast around the back-roads! The biggest problem is access, though I never worried about this for the first 15 years of ownership. I'm now of 'advanced years' and the victim of some nasty abdominal butchery, making ingress\egress near-impossible with the roof up, but top-down is easy - if you know how!
I'd love to try out the modern higher-powered, more civilised editions of the Elise, but I don't really notice any lack of power for my use of the car. I live predominantly in rural Wales, a place of narrow, bumpy, twisty roads and high hedges liberally dosed with bovine excreta, and sprinkled with Tour de France Wannabees. High speeds are generally not in order and a meagre 140BHP is sufficient to provide an enjoyable drive, especially on some favored routes lacking aforementioned impedimenta.
The Elise is a rare thing. It's unique car which meets the needs of a relatively small group of people for whom the compromises are hugely out-weighed by its ability to charm, excite & enthrall. I hope that Lotus will develop a truly modern version (for future generations) but I fear that commercial pressures will prevent that.
No need to enumerate all its virtues, nor its many faults lots of which have been fixed on later models. The Elise is not a practical daily driver, though I did use mine as such many years ago. Nothing can compare with arriving at Work after a breathless early-morning Summertime |(or crisp Winter) blast around the back-roads! The biggest problem is access, though I never worried about this for the first 15 years of ownership. I'm now of 'advanced years' and the victim of some nasty abdominal butchery, making ingress\egress near-impossible with the roof up, but top-down is easy - if you know how!
I'd love to try out the modern higher-powered, more civilised editions of the Elise, but I don't really notice any lack of power for my use of the car. I live predominantly in rural Wales, a place of narrow, bumpy, twisty roads and high hedges liberally dosed with bovine excreta, and sprinkled with Tour de France Wannabees. High speeds are generally not in order and a meagre 140BHP is sufficient to provide an enjoyable drive, especially on some favored routes lacking aforementioned impedimenta.
The Elise is a rare thing. It's unique car which meets the needs of a relatively small group of people for whom the compromises are hugely out-weighed by its ability to charm, excite & enthrall. I hope that Lotus will develop a truly modern version (for future generations) but I fear that commercial pressures will prevent that.
wittgenfrog said:
It delivers when driving at 5/10ths as well as when pushing-on.
This is a major feature people often overlook with a car. When I said earlier that I enjoyed every mile in my S2 111S, I really meant it. Even when stuck behind a Qashqai on a B road, you can enjoy all the messages that the car gives you and the delightful steering. This is something that many performance cars lack - they're simply fast.wittgenfrog said:
I'd love to try out the modern higher-powered, more civilised editions of the Elise, but I don't really notice any lack of power for my use of the car. I live predominantly in rural Wales, a place of narrow, bumpy, twisty roads and high hedges liberally dosed with bovine excreta, and sprinkled with Tour de France Wannabees. High speeds are generally not in order and a meagre 140BHP is sufficient to provide an enjoyable drive, especially on some favored routes lacking aforementioned impedimenta.
I've driven a few different variations over the years. Generally, things have got slightly better over the years, although a number of new features may annoy. For example, the 2005 111R introduced servo assisted brakes along with the Toyota engine, and they have far too much travel on the brake pedal, which is not nice to use, but also puts your foot to low to heel and toe. This was solved a while later when Lotus moved to a DBW throttle, because they mounted the throttle pedal lower, but you still get a dead zone at the top of the brake pedal (which, interestingly, most Toyotas have as well). That Toyota engine is also not as nice to drive in my opinion as the k series VVC. More reliable I'm sure, but I just don't like the power delivery with that weird step at about 6200rpm (60mph in 2nd gear, so one has to ask what the point is!). The best I've driven is a late model supercharged Elise, which had most of the brake and throttle issues sorted, and the supercharger gives you the low down urge the Toyota engine lacked and smooths out the step at higher revs. It's touch and go whether I prefer it to a good early Elise though. It certainly wasn't enough to tempt me out of my S2 111S.Agree with one of the earlier posts today, spot on. I'm another that sadly had to give up on my Elise S2 after 4 brilliant years due to access/egress problems. I often wonder how many more Elises/Exiges would have been sold if they'd been able to design a lower sill and still meet strength requirements. I've had my M100 Elan over 20 years, love it and will never sell it but nothing matches the Elise for driver involvement in my opinion.
RobM77 said:
I've driven a few different variations over the years. Generally, things have got slightly better over the years, although a number of new features may annoy. For example, the 2005 111R introduced servo assisted brakes along with the Toyota engine, and they have far too much travel on the brake pedal, which is not nice to use, but also puts your foot to low to heel and toe. This was solved a while later when Lotus moved to a DBW throttle, because they mounted the throttle pedal lower, but you still get a dead zone at the top of the brake pedal (which, interestingly, most Toyotas have as well). That Toyota engine is also not as nice to drive in my opinion as the k series VVC. More reliable I'm sure, but I just don't like the power delivery with that weird step at about 6200rpm (60mph in 2nd gear, so one has to ask what the point is!). The best I've driven is a late model supercharged Elise, which had most of the brake and throttle issues sorted, and the supercharger gives you the low down urge the Toyota engine lacked and smooths out the step at higher revs. It's touch and go whether I prefer it to a good early Elise though. It certainly wasn't enough to tempt me out of my S2 111S.
The heel and toe situation is odd, because it's within the scope of adjustment of the pedals to fix it. Unfortunately, you need to risk positional asphyxia in the Lotus position (head in the footwell) to do so. My specialist did it for me unprompted at the first service he did.The cam change point can be lowered with a remap, which also makes it smoother and reduces the need to chase the limiter to keep on cam in the next gear. As standard, it happens at 50mph in second, with the reflash it's 45mph. 2nd runs to 68mph.
I think it's a bit of a marmite engine really, depends whether you like that sort of thing. I do, not least because I think that making them screamers is the only way to make four cylinder engines interesting, but I think the Honda K20A is a much nicer implementation.
Nyloc20 said:
Agree with one of the earlier posts today, spot on. I'm another that sadly had to give up on my Elise S2 after 4 brilliant years due to access/egress problems. I often wonder how many more Elises/Exiges would have been sold if they'd been able to design a lower sill and still meet strength requirements. I've had my M100 Elan over 20 years, love it and will never sell it but nothing matches the Elise for driver involvement in my opinion.
Lotus kinda did - its was called the Europa, and had a fixed roof and lower sills (the fixed roof allowing the sills to be lowered) but no one really bought it...Probably slightly ahead of its time, and poorly marketed.
gofasterrosssco said:
Nyloc20 said:
Agree with one of the earlier posts today, spot on. I'm another that sadly had to give up on my Elise S2 after 4 brilliant years due to access/egress problems. I often wonder how many more Elises/Exiges would have been sold if they'd been able to design a lower sill and still meet strength requirements. I've had my M100 Elan over 20 years, love it and will never sell it but nothing matches the Elise for driver involvement in my opinion.
Lotus kinda did - its was called the Europa, and had a fixed roof and lower sills (the fixed roof allowing the sills to be lowered) but no one really bought it...Probably slightly ahead of its time, and poorly marketed.
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