Flemke - Is this your McLaren? (Vol 5)
Discussion
anniesdad said:
douglas111 said:
Question for all,
Are there any F1s that have never been caught on film or seen by the public since their purchase?
There's only 2 men that I know of that might know the answer to that question. Are there any F1s that have never been caught on film or seen by the public since their purchase?
Erik Reynolds - https://twitter.com/peloton25
Greg Hurst - https://twitter.com/hurstg01
Both PHers but send them a tweet!
To expand on what Greg mentioned in his reply, the three cars that have not been seen publicly or had images appear in the public domain since leaving the factory would be 002, 004 and LM5 - all of those went to Brunei.
Photos do exist of each car, but the 002 images were studio shots taken prior to delivery which appeared in a supplement to Autocar in early 1994. Those same images were also used for a Kenwood wall calendar for 1995.
The few images of 004 were taken in an unfinished state at the factory. That car has since been written off in an accident that occurred at the hands of a McLaren mechanic working in Brunei, so likely the only hope would be for any additional images taken during its time in country prior to that. However, those are probably unlikely to surface.
I don't think there is currently a single image of LM5 in the public domain, but I can say that it looks identical to the other two production LMs that were sprayed orange, which was how McLaren initially intended all of them to be.
There are five rather elusive F1s that should still be with their original owners. Chassis 049 in New Zealand is one. From the start of my time studying these cars it was nearly a decade before any photo surfaced that was confirmed to be that chassis. Then, come to find out, this was not due to the car having been hidden away somewhere, as by 2006 it had over 11,000 KMs on the odometer! I guess they just don't have cameras or the internet in NZ, or maybe no one cares about the most incredible road car produced by a company originally founded by a Kiwi??
The others I'd note are the late George Harrison's chassis 025 still with the family trust. Chassis 052 in Canada which despite being part of a well know collection has only been seen a few times. Chassis 057 is in Bahrain and owned by a member of their Royal family - similar story. And finally, a yellow car in Japan believed to be chassis 060 that is still in the delivery plastic.
Honorable mentions as well for chassis 021 in Singapore which was hidden for many years under cover at the local Rolls Royce dealership. For a short while it was displayed on the showroom floor of the new McLaren Automotive dealership when that opened there.
Chassis 071 in Germany - the only F1 road car sprayed in McLaren's traditional orange paint, and the last chassis to be built with high mirrors like Flemke's F1.
Finally chassis 039, painted brown with gold wheels - apparently now lost in the Culiacan region of Mexico. Just two photos exist showing that car there, the last of which surfaced online in 2007 - not exactly sure when it was taken, but a lot of mystery surrounds that car and the possible death of it's possible drug cartel-leading owner, possibly. Future barn find perhaps, although you won't catch me leading the search party down there.
tankplanker said:
How many does the (Sultan of?) Brunei still own?
There should still be 7 of their original 10 McLaren F1s owned by the Brunei Royal Family unless some have managed to sneak out under the radar (unlikely). Those remaining cars would be 002, 008, GTR 09R, LM1, LM4, LM5, and 54F1GT. I was told it was at least a two year process to get 005 out of their collection - hard to say if others could be available.Further details here: http://www.mclarenlife.com/forums/mclaren-p1-f1/59...
Soov535 said:
I expect after Evans fell in love with the car on his only series of Top Great he simply had to have one.
Evans had owned F1 chassis 012 briefly several years before appearing on Top Gear, and he chose to sell it. The car was included as a partial trade when he sold his Series II 250 GTO, but he didn't want to pay the 20% VAT required to keep it and have it registered in the UK. Perhaps some regret over that decision has caused him to change his mind, but the purchase of 005 would have been completed well before he drove 069 in that Top Gear episode.>8^)
ER
Edited by Peloton25 on Friday 28th October 20:29
flemke said:
If you look at the black F1 in the photo, the personalised reg plate very much appears to resemble the name "KIDSTON".
It is public knowledge that there is a dealer of high-end cars named Simon Kidston, who in the last few years has handled more than one F1.
QED - that car is probably not Chris Evans's.
Ah, OK. Thanks.It is public knowledge that there is a dealer of high-end cars named Simon Kidston, who in the last few years has handled more than one F1.
QED - that car is probably not Chris Evans's.
Has GM had a chance to drive your car since making all the modifications, and if so, what did he think?
Is there anything else you'd like changed or wished was different, excluding the improvements you've already made? I know you said the engine is great as it is. I get the impression GM wanted it to be a GT and sports car and you'd prefer it fit the sports car role only. Perhaps decisions were made to help meet the GT spec that you would have preferred done differently. And anything cosmetic? I seem to recall GM said he wished they'd made the rear a little longer.
Edited by douglas111 on Friday 28th October 15:40
Could one of the written off cars be legally re-constructed one day, even if it means a new chassis and pretty much starting from scratch? Not sure McLaren wouldn't even take on such a project, but with such limited numbers and ever increasing prices, it made me wonder.
Edited by douglas111 on Friday 28th October 11:59
Peloton25 said:
anniesdad said:
douglas111 said:
Question for all,
Are there any F1s that have never been caught on film or seen by the public since their purchase?
There's only 2 men that I know of that might know the answer to that question. Are there any F1s that have never been caught on film or seen by the public since their purchase?
Erik Reynolds - https://twitter.com/peloton25
Greg Hurst - https://twitter.com/hurstg01
Both PHers but send them a tweet!
To expand on what Greg mentioned in his reply, the three cars that have not been seen publicly or had images appear in the public domain since leaving the factory would be 002, 004 and LM5 - all of those went to Brunei.
Photos do exist of each car, but the 002 images were studio shots taken prior to delivery which appeared in a supplement to Autocar in early 1994. Those same images were also used for a Kenwood wall calendar for 1995.
The few images of 004 were taken in an unfinished state at the factory. That car has since been written off in an accident that occurred at the hands of a McLaren mechanic working in Brunei, so likely the only hope would be for any additional images taken during its time in country prior to that. However, those are probably unlikely to surface.
I don't think there is currently a single image of LM5 in the public domain, but I can say that it looks identical to the other two production LMs that were sprayed orange, which was how McLaren initially intended all of them to be.
There are five rather elusive F1s that should still be with their original owners. Chassis 049 in New Zealand is one. From the start of my time studying these cars it was nearly a decade before any photo surfaced that was confirmed to be that chassis. Then, come to find out, this was not due to the car having been hidden away somewhere, as by 2006 it had over 11,000 KMs on the odometer! I guess they just don't have cameras or the internet in NZ, or maybe no one cares about the most incredible road car produced by a company originally founded by a Kiwi??
The others I'd note are the late George Harrison's chassis 025 still with the family trust. Chassis 052 in Canada which despite being part of a well know collection has only been seen a few times. Chassis 057 is in Bahrain and owned by a member of their Royal family - similar story. And finally yellow car in Japan believed to be chassis 060 that is still in the delivery plastic.
Honorable mentions as well for chassis 021 in Singapore which was hidden for many years under cover at the local Rolls Royce dealership. For a short while it was displayed on the showroom floor of the new McLaren Automotive dealership when that opened there.
Chassis 071 in Germany - the only F1 road car sprayed in McLaren's traditional orange paint, and the last chassis to be built with high mirrors like Flemke's F1.
Finally chassis 039, painted brown with gold wheels - apparently now lost in the Culiacan region of Mexico. Just two photos exist showing that car there, the last of which surfaced online in 2007 - not exactly sure when it was taken, but a lot of mystery surrounds that car and the possible death of it's possible drug cartel-leading owner, possibly. Future barn find perhaps, although you won't catch me leading the search party down there.
tankplanker said:
How many does the (Sultan of?) Brunei still own?
There should still be 7 of their original 10 McLaren F1s owned by the Brunei Royal Family unless some have managed to sneak out under the radar (unlikely). Those remaining cars would be 002, 008, GTR 09R, LM1, LM4, LM5, and 54F1GT. I was told it was at least a two year process to get 005 out of their collection - hard to say if others could be available.Further details here: http://www.mclarenlife.com/forums/mclaren-p1-f1/59...
Soov535 said:
I expect after Evans fell in love with the car on his only series of Top Great he simply had to have one.
Evans had owned F1 chassis 012 briefly several years before appearing on Top Gear, and he chose to sell it. The car was included as a partial trade when he sold his Series II 250 GTO, but he didn't want to pay the 20% VAT required to keep it and have it registered in the UK. Perhaps some regret over that decision has caused him to chance his mind, but the purchase of 005 would have been completed well before he drove 069 in that Top Gear episode.>8^)
ER
flemke said:
cc8s said:
flemke said:
Regardless of that, ss I was contemplating the 991R, I realised that I have a 997 GT3 with a Manthey 4.4L motor, Manthey suspension, full carbon doors and roof, etc. Richard Meaden drove it a few years ago and said it was the best Porsche he had ever driven. Relative to that car, I don't know how a 911R would be an improvement.
I wonder if it was one of the cars that was in the Manthey workshop when we visited earlier this year? It was a treat to see around but sadly a 'no picture' affair.
Manthey did I think four road cars with the 4.4 engine, but they're not doing it anymore.
Peloton25 said:
And finally, a yellow car in Japan believed to be chassis 060 that is still in the delivery plastic.
Someone just asked me if they could see an image of this one and I happen to have an old video from Japan which I've hosted on YouTube where you can get a good look at the car. One of the unique touches on this F1 is that Gordon Murray added his signature to the right corner of the rear bumper, almost like an artist signing his canvas. This was the sort of thing done at owner's request and a number of cars were signed, but most of them were on the chassis spar forward of the gear lever. The video should be queued up to start when the road car appears. Sorry there are no sub-titles.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uWzfK6EjDQI&fe...
Here's a grainy screen capture of the interior if you don't have time to watch the video:
Also, while this video is old a few more recent photos still show that nothing has changed with this car. I believe it is probably the lowest mileage F1 in existence today. Not really what I'd do with the car, but some people appreciate that sort of thing.
>8^)
ER
douglas111 said:
Ah, OK. Thanks.
I have one more question (how many times have you heard that before?) - has GM had a chance to drive your car since making all the modifications, and if so, what did he think?
He has ridden in my car but declined my offer to drive it. In declining the offer, he said that he didn't like the responsibility of driving someone else's car. I don't know whether that sentiment might have been related to the fact that, an hour previously, he was driving someone's Carrera GT on a track and managed to spin it on his out-lap. I have one more question (how many times have you heard that before?) - has GM had a chance to drive your car since making all the modifications, and if so, what did he think?
As a passenger, he did comment that my car seemed to have a lot of power and a stable chassis. This was before I had changed the brakes.
Saying that, although he says he is happy for people to alter their F1s in whatever ways they see fit, it is a fact that I have taken my car away from the comfy, cross-country GT concept that was essential to his project.
douglas111 said:
Is there anything else you'd like changed or wished was different, excluding the improvements you've already made? I know you said the engine is great as it is. I get the impression GM wanted it to be a GT and sports car and you'd prefer it fit the sports car role only. Perhaps decisions were made to help meet the GT spec that you would have preferred done differently. And anything cosmetic? I seem to recall GM said he wished they'd made the rear a little longer.
I wish that the headlights were better. I wish that some of the switchgear were more "special", in particular the indicator stalks that came straight out of the BMW 8-Series.
There is a curved line above the forward half of the rear wheel arch; Peter Stevens has said that he now would prefer to have omitted it, although it's never really bothered me.
I wish that reverse gear had a syncro.
And I wish I could figure out what the heck to do with the interior trim, but I'm working on that one.
douglas111 said:
Could one of the written off cars be legally re-constructed one day, even if it means a new chassis and pretty much starting from scratch? Not sure McLaren wouldn't even take on such a project, but with such limited numbers and ever increasing prices, it made me wonder.
I think Anniesdad could enlighten us as to whether a chassis number that the underwriter has reported to the regulatory authority as having been "written off" could be reinstated. I suspect that it will depend on the law in the specific country in which the car was registered.If it was allowed by the authorities, I expect that McLaren would take on the job - why not? They like challenges and especially enjoy working on F1s rather than what has become their predominant activity - cosmetic customising of modern McLarens.
cc8s said:
flemke said:
cc8s said:
flemke said:
Regardless of that, ss I was contemplating the 991R, I realised that I have a 997 GT3 with a Manthey 4.4L motor, Manthey suspension, full carbon doors and roof, etc. Richard Meaden drove it a few years ago and said it was the best Porsche he had ever driven. Relative to that car, I don't know how a 911R would be an improvement.
I wonder if it was one of the cars that was in the Manthey workshop when we visited earlier this year? It was a treat to see around but sadly a 'no picture' affair.
Manthey did I think four road cars with the 4.4 engine, but they're not doing it anymore.
flemke said:
He has ridden in my car but declined my offer to drive it. In declining the offer, he said that he didn't like the responsibility of driving someone else's car. I don't know whether that sentiment might have been related to the fact that, an hour previously, he was driving someone's Carrera GT on a track and managed to spin it on his out-lap.
As a passenger, he did comment that my car seemed to have a lot of power and a stable chassis. This was before I had changed the brakes.
Saying that, although he says he is happy for people to alter their F1s in whatever ways they see fit, it is a fact that I have taken my car away from the comfy, cross-country GT concept that was essential to his project.
Thanks Flemke, for all your responses. As a passenger, he did comment that my car seemed to have a lot of power and a stable chassis. This was before I had changed the brakes.
Saying that, although he says he is happy for people to alter their F1s in whatever ways they see fit, it is a fact that I have taken my car away from the comfy, cross-country GT concept that was essential to his project.
Does the original NSX fulfill both GT and sports car roles, or is that more a sports car only?
flemke said:
Storer said:
The issue of 'bloating' of cars has crept up on us.
My first Mk1 1600 Golf GTi was and 850kg feather weight. Todays GTi is about 1400kgs so there is no wonder it needs far more grunt.
With modern materials like carbon fibre and aluminium alloys we should be able to build lighter cars than those of the 1970's/80's. The trouble is we want quiet cars and soundproofing is quite heavy. We want electric everything, and all those motors are heavy. Aircon, heavy. Sound/nav system, yep, heavy.
An Ultima with quite heavy steel chassis and also a fairly heavy GF body, but can be built to weigh about a 1000kgs. Using some of the modern products could see that down to 850kgs, possibly. With 500 to 1000hp you can see what is possible in performance and handling if you keep weight down.
The probable march towards electric vehicles will make keeping weight to a minimum even more important if we are to see a useable ranges per charge.
Local councils think we will all swap to public transport, so are not living in the real world. But cars are likely to get smaller, lighter and probably have lower top speeds but with rapid acceleration.
But we buy cars to do different things that our lives demand. My everyday 3 tonne 4x4 has to perform tasks as diverse are collecting my fresh daily bread to towing hay trailers off road.
The F1 is one of those toys that we don't need, but want. It is the type of car that should be cutting edge and pushing boundaries. This it did very well.
Nobody needs a sports car - they just want one. But not everyone wants a bare bones hard core stripped out tooth rattler.
Maybe manufactures should start by building a tooth rattler, and then add the comfort options, rather than doing it the other way round as they do now.....
I agree with everything that you say. My first Mk1 1600 Golf GTi was and 850kg feather weight. Todays GTi is about 1400kgs so there is no wonder it needs far more grunt.
With modern materials like carbon fibre and aluminium alloys we should be able to build lighter cars than those of the 1970's/80's. The trouble is we want quiet cars and soundproofing is quite heavy. We want electric everything, and all those motors are heavy. Aircon, heavy. Sound/nav system, yep, heavy.
An Ultima with quite heavy steel chassis and also a fairly heavy GF body, but can be built to weigh about a 1000kgs. Using some of the modern products could see that down to 850kgs, possibly. With 500 to 1000hp you can see what is possible in performance and handling if you keep weight down.
The probable march towards electric vehicles will make keeping weight to a minimum even more important if we are to see a useable ranges per charge.
Local councils think we will all swap to public transport, so are not living in the real world. But cars are likely to get smaller, lighter and probably have lower top speeds but with rapid acceleration.
But we buy cars to do different things that our lives demand. My everyday 3 tonne 4x4 has to perform tasks as diverse are collecting my fresh daily bread to towing hay trailers off road.
The F1 is one of those toys that we don't need, but want. It is the type of car that should be cutting edge and pushing boundaries. This it did very well.
Nobody needs a sports car - they just want one. But not everyone wants a bare bones hard core stripped out tooth rattler.
Maybe manufactures should start by building a tooth rattler, and then add the comfort options, rather than doing it the other way round as they do now.....
I suppose it's possible that electric power might one day make 10000kg cars more common again, but I guess we'll be waiting a fair while for that to happen. A fast milk float just won't be the same as a petrol engine though.
douglas111 said:
Yes, and thanks Storer for your thoughts on this.
I suppose it's possible that electric power might one day make 10000kg cars more common again, but I guess we'll be waiting a fair while for that to happen. A fast milk float just won't be the same as a petrol engine though.
10000kg?I suppose it's possible that electric power might one day make 10000kg cars more common again, but I guess we'll be waiting a fair while for that to happen. A fast milk float just won't be the same as a petrol engine though.
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