RE: Tell me I'm wrong: BMW M5
Discussion
RoverP6B said:
Reawakening this thread again... not much I can add except to say I reckon the E39 in all iterations is largely the perfect 5-series. Had an F11 diesel courtesy car for a month - ugly, bloated, vastly heavier than the E39 (about 300kg if memory serves), dead electric steering... if BMW made the E39 M5 today it'd sell like hotcakes. This? Not convinced. It really is too lardy, the styling too contrived and unappealing and insufficiently driver-focussed. The M5 was never supposed to be a Merc AMG-baiter - and frankly I'd still rather have the AMG. Merc's new turbo V8 even sounds worlds better than BMW's. I'm also disappointed that primary safety is being sacrificed on the altar of secondary safety - yes, you're much safer in one of these in a crash than in an E39 let alone an E28, but you're also more likely to crash it, even going no faster. I also reckon that the heavier, more powerful car, where the driver is more isolated, feels slower than it actually is, more so than the lighter, more involving car. Taking this argument to 'reductio ad absurdam', a Caterham or a Morgan 3-wheeler feels bloody fast at 60mph. Even my lowly E39 520i isn't that much fun at 60 on an A-road. I really do think you'd be getting into license loss territory every time you wanted to have fun in the F10 M5. At least the E60 made up for it in theatrics, with that Formula One-derived screaming lunatic V10. One owner I met described it to me as a psychotic war-machine, that tried to kill you at every opportunity, demanded to be wrestled, all the while screaming blue bloody murder at you. Perhaps not terribly civilised around town, but at least the gearbox suited the engine's F1 derivation. It's a shame they never made the long-rumoured V10 M1-replacement R8-rival supercar. The E39 seemed like the perfect mix of civilisation and performance and I'm seriously thinking of getting one. PLENTY fast enough to lose your license in, but more usable and involving (not to mention a lot prettier). The E92 M3 saloon seemed like more of a real replacement for it, leaving no replacement at all for the old E46 M3, but what now? The new M3 4-door is likely to be even bigger than the E39. And still no 'M' Touring - even though AMG estates outsell saloons by a large margin and Audi Quattro have discontinued the RS4/6 saloons altogether!
You forgot to add IMO 
E39 M5s would not sell these days. How many e90 M3s (spiritual successor) were sold? Not a lot. I had one and loved it but no one else did.
You cannot compare a 520d to an F10 M5. An F11 520d like my neighbours is a very depressing thing indeed. An F10 M5 feels like its trying to rip your face off through accelerative forces alone.
One thing to note is that the facelifted M5 has a better steering rack that I would rate as on par/better than the e90/92.
Again just to qualify how different it is to a boggo 5er, BMW didn't cop out and fit electric power steering like every other 5 but instead fitted a hydraulic rack.
Also things like MDM stability mode make it possible to safely enjoy a bit of oversteer without risking a big shunt, IMO this makes an e39 more difficult to have fun in day to day when its raining and slippery.
It is an insane, bats
t crazy, absolutely bonkers car, I've had mine for 4 days and I can't stop driving the thing.Utterly gratuitous photo for no reason:
RoverP6B said:
Spanish box? "NOBODY EXPECTS THE SPANISH INQUISITION!"
Oh, and 95% of buyers will spec DCT because they're told it's faster and better for residual values...
Oh, and 95% of buyers will spec DCT because they're told it's faster and better for residual values...
I fear that A. You're right and B. We won't get this choice again.If I had the cash, mine would be a manual (M4 coupé). Paddles are fine but I always feel like the driving experience is missing something without a 3-pedal manual.
RoverP6B said:
The Dolomite Sprint remains one of the world's great sports saloons - 1000kg weight, 127bhp stock (160hp easily achievable, and that's before you look into the Saab turbo derivative), LSD as standard IIRC. I honestly don't think it's possible to have more fun in a car than absolutely thrashing the arse off a Dolly Sprint. Is it too much to hope for a car like that again?
Just as an aside, a LSD wasn't standard on the Dolomite Sprint, it was quite an uncommon option. You had to look at quite a few cars to find one one thus equipped-Z- said:
You forgot to add IMO
E39 M5s would not sell these days. How many e90 M3s (spiritual successor) were sold? Not a lot. I had one and loved it but no one else did.
You cannot compare a 520d to an F10 M5. An F11 520d like my neighbours is a very depressing thing indeed. An F10 M5 feels like its trying to rip your face off through accelerative forces alone.
One thing to note is that the facelifted M5 has a better steering rack that I would rate as on par/better than the e90/92.
Again just to qualify how different it is to a boggo 5er, BMW didn't cop out and fit electric power steering like every other 5 but instead fitted a hydraulic rack.
Also things like MDM stability mode make it possible to safely enjoy a bit of oversteer without risking a big shunt, IMO this makes an e39 more difficult to have fun in day to day when its raining and slippery.
It is an insane, batst crazy, absolutely bonkers car, I've had mine for 4 days and I can't stop driving the thing.
Of course you can. It's pretty much required in fact. I remember Clarkson saying that his concern with this iteration of M5 is that the base car is now so good he questions if the M5 is worth the difference in price.E39 M5s would not sell these days. How many e90 M3s (spiritual successor) were sold? Not a lot. I had one and loved it but no one else did.
You cannot compare a 520d to an F10 M5. An F11 520d like my neighbours is a very depressing thing indeed. An F10 M5 feels like its trying to rip your face off through accelerative forces alone.
One thing to note is that the facelifted M5 has a better steering rack that I would rate as on par/better than the e90/92.
Again just to qualify how different it is to a boggo 5er, BMW didn't cop out and fit electric power steering like every other 5 but instead fitted a hydraulic rack.
Also things like MDM stability mode make it possible to safely enjoy a bit of oversteer without risking a big shunt, IMO this makes an e39 more difficult to have fun in day to day when its raining and slippery.
It is an insane, bats
t crazy, absolutely bonkers car, I've had mine for 4 days and I can't stop driving the thing.-Z- said:
You cannot compare a 520d to an F10 M5
I'm not trying to compare them on the same basis - just judging the platform under it, which I think has got too big and too heavy. I also found the interior of the 5er very depressing - cheaply, poorly built, nasty materials, and nothing accessible except through the deeply infuriating iDrive. Then there are certain criticisms that can be made on principle. I'm glad to hear M Division have reverted to hydraulic steering. s m said:
Just as an aside, a LSD wasn't standard on the Dolomite Sprint, it was quite an uncommon option. You had to look at quite a few cars to find one one thus equipped
I stand corrected. The one I knew (friend's car) did have one.RoverP6B said:
Inline six, not V6. 1600kg was being generous and reasonable. Next M3 is 1500kg which is good, but it ought to be wearing an M5 badge, not an M3 one - M3 should be down around 1200kg. It's still going to be turbocharged, with fake engine noise and DCT.
yeah inline six but it was rumored before a year or so to be V6 so I mixed things up a bit 
doesn't matter that much, and you can always put M5 badge on it if you really want (as much as I hate fake badging I would do that because that car represents what modern M5 should be)it has very quick turbos with supposedly no lag at all and torque from the basement, just like a V8, fake engine noise could probably be turned off(if it really exists) and there is spanish box as already suggested
I doubt DCT will have better residual value, especially because this engine suits manual transmission better than it suited revvy V8 in E90/2...RoverP6B said:
Inline six, not V6. 1600kg was being generous and reasonable. Next M3 is 1500kg which is good, but it ought to be wearing an M5 badge, not an M3 one - M3 should be down around 1200kg. It's still going to be turbocharged, with fake engine noise and DCT.
Comments like this really make me wonder about expectations.Why should an M3 be down around 1200kg? As far as I can find, even the e30 M3 was 1300kg.
E30 is all steel, but it weighs 1165kg, which seems reasonable as my 318i Touring (related engine, more sheet metal and more glass) was 1180kg. No reason why a car that size today couldn't be pared back 100kg or so anyway! An M3 now could (perhaps should) be a little bit bigger than the E30, so a 1200kg kerb weight using lightweight panels (perhaps made from light, cheap, easy to repair and environmentally sustainable bio-fibre) shouldn't be unrealistic. The E92 M3 is getting on for 1700kg, which is simply unforgivable for a small sports saloon. I could accept a Rolls-Royce weighing that much, but not an M3!
RoverP6B said:
E30 is all steel, but it weighs 1165kg, which seems reasonable as my 318i Touring (related engine, more sheet metal and more glass) was 1180kg. No reason why a car that size today couldn't be pared back 100kg or so anyway! An M3 now could (perhaps should) be a little bit bigger than the E30, so a 1200kg kerb weight using lightweight panels (perhaps made from light, cheap, easy to repair and environmentally sustainable bio-fibre) shouldn't be unrealistic. The E92 M3 is getting on for 1700kg, which is simply unforgivable for a small sports saloon. I could accept a Rolls-Royce weighing that much, but not an M3!
So you accept an M3 today will be bigger than the lightest ever M3 yet still expect it to weigh 100kg less? If lighter materials were that cheap and easy to use I'm sure they'd be used more often. I suspect the cost would sky-rocket were they to implement such things and keep all of the toys that people want.
True, the e36, e46 and e92 are all heavier than each other but they're not huge differences. It's gone up from around 1460kg to 1580kg over the course of 1992-2007.
People want electric heated seats, air conditioning and so on. Is it some sort of myth than an M3 should be a lightweight special? Even when they do go down that road an e46 CSL still weighs the best part of 1400kg.
Patrick Bateman said:
So you accept an M3 today will be bigger than the lightest ever M3 yet still expect it to weigh 100kg less?
If lighter materials were that cheap and easy to use I'm sure they'd be used more often. I suspect the cost would sky-rocket were they to implement such things and keep all of the toys that people want.
True, the e36, e46 and e92 are all heavier than each other but they're not huge differences. It's gone up from around 1460kg to 1580kg over the course of 1992-2007.
People want electric heated seats, air conditioning and so on. Is it some sort of myth than an M3 should be a lightweight special? Even when they do go down that road an e46 CSL still weighs the best part of 1400kg.
I agree with you but consider the advances that are being made at the moment. - Composites are becoming much more affordable for mass production and with the advent of technologies such as 3D printing, things could get exciting in the future (see the Alfa 4C for example). - If BMW wanted to (and more importantly if there was enough demand), they could produce a light weight M3/4 (CSL? If lighter materials were that cheap and easy to use I'm sure they'd be used more often. I suspect the cost would sky-rocket were they to implement such things and keep all of the toys that people want.
True, the e36, e46 and e92 are all heavier than each other but they're not huge differences. It's gone up from around 1460kg to 1580kg over the course of 1992-2007.
People want electric heated seats, air conditioning and so on. Is it some sort of myth than an M3 should be a lightweight special? Even when they do go down that road an e46 CSL still weighs the best part of 1400kg.
) without skimping on the features.Clivey said:
I agree with you but consider the advances that are being made at the moment. - Composites are becoming much more affordable for mass production and with the advent of technologies such as 3D printing, things could get exciting in the future (see the Alfa 4C for example). - If BMW wanted to (and more importantly if there was enough demand), they could produce a light weight M3/4 (CSL? ) without skimping on the features.
Oh I agree, but until they're affordable enough for a mass production model rather than a special I don't think people should expect such drastically lighter cars. ) without skimping on the features.Clivey said:
RoverP6B said:
Spanish box? "NOBODY EXPECTS THE SPANISH INQUISITION!"
Oh, and 95% of buyers will spec DCT because they're told it's faster and better for residual values...
Oh, and 95% of buyers will spec DCT because they're told it's faster and better for residual values...
I fear that A. You're right and B. We won't get this choice again.If I had the cash, mine would be a manual (M4 coupé). Paddles are fine but I always feel like the driving experience is missing something without a 3-pedal manual.
The DCT boxes are smooth, comfortable and great around town/traffic; they offer better efficiency and also are MUCH better than a standard slush-box when you want a bit of fun. OK, they might not be quite as enjoyable as a manual when really going for it, but for over 95% of the time they're much better for the purpose of what an M5 is all about. Have you driven an M car with a DCT box? More so an M5 or bigger? M3 I can understand the manual a little more as it's more of a smaller "fun" car than the M5/6.
I've driven an M6. Wouldn't suit a manual box as well as the DCT, neither would an M5 IMO.
To the person saying an M3 should weigh 1200kgs.........
You mean, heavier than the original M3 which wouldn't sell for s
t today because of a lack of crash protection, refinement and creature comforts?What about the M3csl? Oh, that was a complete success for BMW as a company, wasn't it
RoverP6B said:
E30 is all steel, but it weighs 1165kg, which seems reasonable as my 318i Touring (related engine, more sheet metal and more glass) was 1180kg. No reason why a car that size today couldn't be pared back 100kg or so anyway! An M3 now could (perhaps should) be a little bit bigger than the E30, so a 1200kg kerb weight using lightweight panels (perhaps made from light, cheap, easy to repair and environmentally sustainable bio-fibre) shouldn't be unrealistic. The E92 M3 is getting on for 1700kg, which is simply unforgivable for a small sports saloon. I could accept a Rolls-Royce weighing that much, but not an M3!
1165kg is an extremely light standard E30 M3 in road trim - most will be over 1200kg with some petrol in and no driverE65Ross said:
Clivey said:
RoverP6B said:
Spanish box? "NOBODY EXPECTS THE SPANISH INQUISITION!"
Oh, and 95% of buyers will spec DCT because they're told it's faster and better for residual values...
Oh, and 95% of buyers will spec DCT because they're told it's faster and better for residual values...
I fear that A. You're right and B. We won't get this choice again.If I had the cash, mine would be a manual (M4 coupé). Paddles are fine but I always feel like the driving experience is missing something without a 3-pedal manual.
You mean, heavier than the original M3 which wouldn't sell for s
t today because of a lack of crash protection, refinement and creature comforts?What about the M3csl? Oh, that was a complete success for BMW as a company, wasn't it
k up! BMW offered people this when they gave us the E46 CSL, and f
king hell that flew out of the showrooms.....E65Ross said:
Actually, I suspect DCT will be specced because they're better to live with day-to-day. These cars are luxury cars before sports cars. How many standard 5 series are specced with manuals?
The DCT boxes are smooth, comfortable and great around town/traffic; they offer better efficiency and also are MUCH better than a standard slush-box when you want a bit of fun. OK, they might not be quite as enjoyable as a manual when really going for it, but for over 95% of the time they're much better for the purpose of what an M5 is all about. Have you driven an M car with a DCT box? More so an M5 or bigger? M3 I can understand the manual a little more as it's more of a smaller "fun" car than the M5/6.
I've driven an M6. Wouldn't suit a manual box as well as the DCT, neither would an M5 IMO.
You don't need to convince me of the merits of DCT - I'd gladly have it in some cars…it's just that in others, including the M3/4, I'd like the choice of a manual to remain into the future.The DCT boxes are smooth, comfortable and great around town/traffic; they offer better efficiency and also are MUCH better than a standard slush-box when you want a bit of fun. OK, they might not be quite as enjoyable as a manual when really going for it, but for over 95% of the time they're much better for the purpose of what an M5 is all about. Have you driven an M car with a DCT box? More so an M5 or bigger? M3 I can understand the manual a little more as it's more of a smaller "fun" car than the M5/6.
I've driven an M6. Wouldn't suit a manual box as well as the DCT, neither would an M5 IMO.
Clivey said:
E65Ross said:
Actually, I suspect DCT will be specced because they're better to live with day-to-day. These cars are luxury cars before sports cars. How many standard 5 series are specced with manuals?
The DCT boxes are smooth, comfortable and great around town/traffic; they offer better efficiency and also are MUCH better than a standard slush-box when you want a bit of fun. OK, they might not be quite as enjoyable as a manual when really going for it, but for over 95% of the time they're much better for the purpose of what an M5 is all about. Have you driven an M car with a DCT box? More so an M5 or bigger? M3 I can understand the manual a little more as it's more of a smaller "fun" car than the M5/6.
I've driven an M6. Wouldn't suit a manual box as well as the DCT, neither would an M5 IMO.
You don't need to convince me of the merits of DCT - I'd gladly have it in some cars…it's just that in others, including the M3/4, I'd like the choice of a manual to remain into the future.The DCT boxes are smooth, comfortable and great around town/traffic; they offer better efficiency and also are MUCH better than a standard slush-box when you want a bit of fun. OK, they might not be quite as enjoyable as a manual when really going for it, but for over 95% of the time they're much better for the purpose of what an M5 is all about. Have you driven an M car with a DCT box? More so an M5 or bigger? M3 I can understand the manual a little more as it's more of a smaller "fun" car than the M5/6.
I've driven an M6. Wouldn't suit a manual box as well as the DCT, neither would an M5 IMO.
Clivey said:
E65Ross said:
Actually, I suspect DCT will be specced because they're better to live with day-to-day. These cars are luxury cars before sports cars. How many standard 5 series are specced with manuals?
The DCT boxes are smooth, comfortable and great around town/traffic; they offer better efficiency and also are MUCH better than a standard slush-box when you want a bit of fun. OK, they might not be quite as enjoyable as a manual when really going for it, but for over 95% of the time they're much better for the purpose of what an M5 is all about. Have you driven an M car with a DCT box? More so an M5 or bigger? M3 I can understand the manual a little more as it's more of a smaller "fun" car than the M5/6.
I've driven an M6. Wouldn't suit a manual box as well as the DCT, neither would an M5 IMO.
You don't need to convince me of the merits of DCT - I'd gladly have it in some cars…it's just that in others, including the M3/4, I'd like the choice of a manual to remain into the future.The DCT boxes are smooth, comfortable and great around town/traffic; they offer better efficiency and also are MUCH better than a standard slush-box when you want a bit of fun. OK, they might not be quite as enjoyable as a manual when really going for it, but for over 95% of the time they're much better for the purpose of what an M5 is all about. Have you driven an M car with a DCT box? More so an M5 or bigger? M3 I can understand the manual a little more as it's more of a smaller "fun" car than the M5/6.
I've driven an M6. Wouldn't suit a manual box as well as the DCT, neither would an M5 IMO.
For example, how many Aston Martin DB9s are manual? Similar car to the M6. likewise you don't see any manual E63 AMGs or RS6s. Maserati quattroporte? They're not the type of cars for a manual gearbox.
Judging by what a lot say on here you'd think PH members know the market requirements better than the manufacturers!
Patrick Bateman said:
So you accept an M3 today will be bigger than the lightest ever M3 yet still expect it to weigh 100kg less?
If lighter materials were that cheap and easy to use I'm sure they'd be used more often. I suspect the cost would sky-rocket were they to implement such things and keep all of the toys that people want.
True, the e36, e46 and e92 are all heavier than each other but they're not huge differences. It's gone up from around 1460kg to 1580kg over the course of 1992-2007.
People want electric heated seats, air conditioning and so on. Is it some sort of myth than an M3 should be a lightweight special? Even when they do go down that road an e46 CSL still weighs the best part of 1400kg.
The new M3 is about 330kg heavier than the E30, so it's far from the lightest. The E92 M3 is 1655kg - 490kg more than the E30. Electric heated seats and aircon in an M3? I could just about understand those in an M5, but frankly if I wanted those I'd buy a Volvo V70. The M3 is a sports car, not a luxobarge. The CSL was a step in the right direction (SMG apart) but I'd have made all the detachable panels from CF, not just the boot.If lighter materials were that cheap and easy to use I'm sure they'd be used more often. I suspect the cost would sky-rocket were they to implement such things and keep all of the toys that people want.
True, the e36, e46 and e92 are all heavier than each other but they're not huge differences. It's gone up from around 1460kg to 1580kg over the course of 1992-2007.
People want electric heated seats, air conditioning and so on. Is it some sort of myth than an M3 should be a lightweight special? Even when they do go down that road an e46 CSL still weighs the best part of 1400kg.
Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff