Why can nobody drive in the snow

[FiF]

Mr Tidy said:

300bhp/ton said:

Your profile says Berkshire....

I'm not sure you can hand on heart really claim that for 27 days a year you cannot drive on summer tyres.... I'd say it is probably more like 2 days a year or sometimes none.

No, you're absolutely right.

I was just using the average number for the UK from the chart posted.

But if you really want to be mobile every day regardless of weather All Seasons or Winters all year have to be the best option - unless you are prepared to swap between Summers and Winters (especially if you have a RWD BMW on run-flats)!

That chart was showing midday temperatures probably, it wasn't suitably annotated either by error or deliberate omission by whoever. So in the bigger picture of real life and this discussion it was anywhere from largely irrelevant to downright misleading.

[Tired]

ericmcn said:

BS and another misconception by gods on PH

a quick google yields this (approx weight) - the Subaru I have with all the bells and whistles of AWD, 50:50 torque bla bla is no heavier than any other comparable car in that format.

BMW 330i 2,045kg > RWD
Audi A4 3.0 Tdi 1609Kg > Quattro
Lexus IS250 2.5V6 1570kg > RWD
Subaru Legacy BL/BP 1,500kg > AWD - viscous centre diff, rear torsen diff - 50:50
Mazda 6 1522Kg > FWD SkyActiv-G 165PS
Jaguar X Type 3.0 V6 1710kg > RWD Supercharged
Subaru WRX STi final edition 1534kg > AWD / DCCD

Too much BS sprouted by people on here who dont what they are talking about

I don't know you, so I'll ignore how rude you were, and just talk about the numbers.

I've owned 2 of the 4WD cars on that list. I've owned FWD, 4WD and RWD cars, engines in the front, engines in the mid/back, and I've spent a lot of time driving in snow.

Firstly, your figures are awfully suspect, a 330i kerb weight is not 2T+

Secondly, please, read the post I made, that you replied to again.

If you were to remove the rear diff and propshaft from your 4WD car to make it 2WD, would it get heavier? Or lighter?

So, was I posting BS, or actual fact?

[macushla]

JonChalk said:

The default for all UK tyres is what the rest of world and tyre manufacturers call Summer tyres.

If you want the tyres specified as All-Season by manufacturers (such as Michelin Cross-climates), then you need to request / specify / ask for (whatever) them.

A simple search on any tyre supplier site, from Blackcircles down will allow you to do so.

The simple fact is that, on average (blah, blah, blah) the UK weather conditions generally only warrant Summer tyres, and we have no legislation or guidance (unlike many central / northern European countries) requiring you to fit anything other than Summer tyres. So that's what you get. Unless you actively choose All-Season, or Winter tyres.

Edited by JonChalk on Friday 25th January 08:53

Nope, not convinced. I think the labelling as Summer Tyres has come about through common usage.

I’m going to take Michelin as an example.

They have Alpins - winter tyres
Pilot Sports (whatever number iteration) all year
Pilot Cup (cut slicks)

The Cup are definitely summer tyres as they really only work in the dry

The Pilot Sports are good for all year round. They may have a bias towards warmer temps but not exclusively restricted to that. They also have hefty tread patterns and are good in cold, wet conditions like most of winter is in the U.K.

Alpins definitely Winter tyres,but not snow tyres. Yet everyone complains when it snows that everyone isn’t on winter tyres. There is a difference between winter and snow tyres.

I know they’ve created this Primacy range but they seem to always be pushed during winter so hardly an all year tyre that gets heavily pushed in winter.

[JonChalk]

macushla said:

Nope, not convinced. I think the labelling as Summer Tyres has come about through common usage.

I’m going to take Michelin as an example.

They have Alpins - winter tyres
Pilot Sports (whatever number iteration) all year
Pilot Cup (cut slicks)

The Cup are definitely summer tyres as they really only work in the dry

The Pilot Sports are good for all year round. They may have a bias towards warmer temps but not exclusively restricted to that. They also have hefty tread patterns and are good in cold, wet conditions like most of winter is in the U.K.

Alpins definitely Winter tyres,but not snow tyres. Yet everyone complains when it snows that everyone isn’t on winter tyres. There is a difference between winter and snow tyres.

I know they’ve created this Primacy range but they seem to always be pushed during winter so hardly an all year tyre that gets heavily pushed in winter.

OK - give up. Suggest Google Oponeo, Tyre Reviews, Michelin, Uniroyal, etc. , etc.

[macushla]

JonChalk said:

OK - give up. Suggest Google Oponeo, Tyre Reviews, Michelin, Uniroyal, etc. , etc.

Can’t be bothered. I’ve driven loads in winter time and whilst I did fit winter tyres to my last car I don’t see them as necessary. I won’t be fitting them to this car. Equally winter tyres were not an absolute solution to snow.

[Labradorofperception]

I'm a firm believer that the driving test should include a little bit of physics and engineering. Firstly, so that orange girls with painted on eyebrows and pcp'd white goods will understand that sitting 3" off someone's back bumper is not going to end well

and as for snow...

Try and teach people the physics of what is going on. What works and what does not. The difference between summers and winters and that even a top end Discovery is just a very expensive sledge if you hit and sit the brakes going down Willowmoor Bank, on the side of the Wrekin (yes, fat middle aged lady driving like a tt I am looking at you).

Even my Series 3 Lightweight spun it's tyres a few times - if there's ice underneath, you're going to have to think laterally.

so I'd teach:

The difference between summer and winter tyres
What 4 wheel drive actually is, and there is a difference between your haldex CRV and a Grand Cherokee
Engine braking
How to brake, and when
Gearing, speed and reaction times
That just because it says "four wheel drive" on Tiguan, it's not an Abbot self propelled gun. It has limitations, big limitations....

[macushla]

Labradorofperception said:

I'm a firm believer that the driving test should include a little bit of physics and engineering. Firstly, so that orange girls with painted on eyebrows and pcp'd white goods will understand that sitting 3" off someone's back bumper is not going to end well

and as for snow...

Try and teach people the physics of what is going on. What works and what does not. The difference between summers and winters and that even a top end Discovery is just a very expensive sledge if you hit and sit the brakes going down Willowmoor Bank, on the side of the Wrekin (yes, fat middle aged lady driving like a tt I am looking at you).

Even my Series 3 Lightweight spun it's tyres a few times - if there's ice underneath, you're going to have to think laterally.

so I'd teach:

The difference between summer and winter tyres
What 4 wheel drive actually is, and there is a difference between your haldex CRV and a Grand Cherokee
Engine braking
How to brake, and when
Gearing, speed and reaction times
That just because it says "four wheel drive" on Tiguan, it's not an Abbot self propelled gun. It has limitations, big limitations....

And you think someone is going to remember that when they drive in snow for the first time 10 years after taking their test. I’ve mentioned it already but there are demands that everyone should take a motorbike, van, trailer, truck, HGV test too. What about a full education in petrol refinery to encourage more frugal dribpcing styles and full insurance qualifications, maybe a full course in home, mechanics, maybe to Master Technician level for all top end brands.

[Car-Matt]

300bhp/ton said:

Oilchange said:

ruprechtmonkeyboy said:

Onehp said:

Maybe take Matts conclusion to heart: "without the right rubber, a 4wd car is just as useless as a 2wd car" ...

I've read some silly comments on here before but this one really takes the biscuit!

And yet if you watch this vid it proves the point.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=atayHQYqA3g&fe...

Aren't you missing the point. Find a vid with 2wd on summers and 4wd on summers, that is what the statement is referring too. Or 2wd on winters vs 4wd on winters....

A video I posted yesterdy.......

[Car-Matt]

FiF said:

Mr Tidy said:

300bhp/ton said:

Your profile says Berkshire....

I'm not sure you can hand on heart really claim that for 27 days a year you cannot drive on summer tyres.... I'd say it is probably more like 2 days a year or sometimes none.

No, you're absolutely right.

I was just using the average number for the UK from the chart posted.

But if you really want to be mobile every day regardless of weather All Seasons or Winters all year have to be the best option - unless you are prepared to swap between Summers and Winters (especially if you have a RWD BMW on run-flats)!

That chart was showing midday temperatures probably, it wasn't suitably annotated either by error or deliberate omission by whoever. So in the bigger picture of real life and this discussion it was anywhere from largely irrelevant to downright misleading.

Yes i'm in complete agreement , a chart showing ambient air temp at midday is as relevant to me as me trying to poo on a white sheet to recreate the turin shroud.

As for the rwd bmw on runflats.......to rather prove a point about being on the right tyres, i run winters on mine and frankly it was excellent in last years beast of the east, I commute upwards of 120 miles each day and I didnt get stuck once, whereas most of my neighbours couldn't even get off their drives in a variety of cars on the wrong tyres

Have a think about commuting time temperatures and then realise that tyres touch the ground not the air............

[Pothole]

macushla said:

My first driving test was cancelled due to snow, the rearranged test was for the end of December, some 8 weeks later, amd just as we got to the Test Centre, it started snowing. There was no way I was letting it get cancelled again, so said I’d do the test and passed.

However there are all sorts of demands made for more training, if we followed up on it then everyone would spend most of their lives in training.

1. More snow training
2. More wet weather training
3. Learn to drive a van / lorry / motorbike / pushbike
4. Learn to drive on a motorway (what if you don’t live anywhere near one?)
And so on

The reality is that we have variable weather and many people can’t drive in it. Once one person gets stuck then the knock on effect is very quick to cause chaos amd even the most amazing rally drovers amongts us might struggle to get up the odd steep hill in stop start traffic from a standstill.

Oh yeah, we don’t have summer tyres on cars (apart from those running Cups), we have allweather tyres, which are going to be a compromise in the more extreme weather. Winter tyres are all well amd good, but we don’t have a climate that means thy should be compulsory amd even if they were it’s not a utopian solution to everything.

A major solution would be more people thinking HARD about whether their journey in seriously adverse weather conditions is necessary. That would, of course, mean that many people would need access to a dictionary. I doubt that most people who get stuck in snow/drive off the road in rainstorms/kill their engines in floods have been caught out by sudden changes in weather, they've just decided to ignore advice or have major doubts about the accuracy of weather forecasts (because they're often inaccurate.

[macushla]

Pothole said:

A major solution would be more people thinking HARD about whether their journey in seriously adverse weather conditions is necessary. That would, of course, mean that many people would need access to a dictionary. I doubt that most people who get stuck in snow/drive off the road in rainstorms/kill their engines in floods have been caught out by sudden changes in weather, they've just decided to ignore advice or have major doubts about the accuracy of weather forecasts (because they're often inaccurate.

Absolutely. Sadly, we’re in a world where people are removed from taking responsibility for their actions and then blame everyone else if it all goes tits up. If we’re also honest we’re all a bit guilty of that ourselves too.

[300bhp/ton]

Onehp said:

Funny how we see completely different things. The run up to the above vid was me sitting next to the owner asking if the winter tyres were any good. I asked because he was driving quite quickly. He couldn't answer the question. So we changed seats, only to realize there was no good way to safely gauge grip levels on the road.

There are plenty of ways to ascertain grip levels. First thing I do in the snow is a brake test. You don't need to be going fast, but see how easy and quickly the brakes lock up/ABS kicks in. You can also feel how much grip there is on turn in, you don't need to be turning round a bend or going quickly to do this.

If the cars slides at low speeds, then higher speeds are not advised unless it's a completely straight road with good visibility and low or no hazards.

Onehp said:

To some it may feel safe, to me 4wd feels totally untransparant.

Not sure what you mean by this?

Onehp said:

So we went to the parking lot. Owner went for a go and he soon realized how st his wintertyres were, almost no grip at all and basically understeering everywhere.

The more worrying thing is, many winter tyre advocates on here seem to believe winter tyres give you the same grip as slicks on a dry race track. They do not. They certainly offer more traction than summer tyres, but the surface is still slippery and/or loose depending on the type of snow. So they will spin and the car will still slide.

This is largely the same principle that Mud Terrain tyres have on wet grass/mud vs All Terrains or road tyres. More traction, but it is still slippery.

Onehp said:

So I had a go to show what the car can do with ESP switched off and constantly yanking the handbrake before every change of direction... Not exactly normal procedure for the average driver.

It might not be normal procedure, but it demonstrated how the car could quite safely in a controlled manner change direction. You altered the yaw angle of the car on the corner entry and then used the drive system to control the car through the corner. FWD simply couldn't have done the same.

Onehp said:

Your assertion that you need 4wd is obviously false

What assertion?

Onehp said:

a fwd car (with esp) would have no problem to drive around that lot in a normal fashion

Maybe, although far more likely to push wide on the corners, and using the handbrake would probably result in a spin, or total loss of momentum.

With the same tyres on in 2wd you'd have no more lateral grip on entering or rounding the corner. And as your driving demonstrated with 4wd it was relatively easy to actually point the car in the direction you intended to go, so that most of the time the car was actually driving forwards (in a drift). RWD you'd still have struggled as they wouldn't be able to pull the front end round as well without more handbrake action, more risk of a spin but biggest issue would have been scrubbing off momentum unless you were going a lot quicker, but that would just add more risk.

Maybe this is all hard to put into words, but for practical examples, watch some Group A rallying from the 1980's where you have rwd, fwd and 4wd cars all competing at the same time and on largely the same tyres/grip levels. And watch how the 4wd cars enter the corners and exit them vs the 2wd cars. Not just the speed, but generally more control in the direction the vehicle is pointing in.

Onehp said:

That’s the thing, 4wd helps you get going, gives a sense of security for some and allows for bigger antics as above, but when you get in trouble on your summer tyres mid corner or in an obstacle situation, the last thing people will do is do handbrake turns and go on the throttle to drift around. No, you will turn your steering wheel and dab or mash the brakes. And then there is no difference between the 4wd and 2wd.

I agree, many drivers will not have the skill or experience to know how to make use of the 4wd system. But that isn't a blanket rule for everyone who does drive one.

Onehp said:

Arguably, if 2wd cars on summers can't get moving, the 4wd cars on summers that do manage to get off the driveway, really shouldn't be driving...

Why? If you can drive within the performance envelope of the tyres,

Onehp said:

You merely demonstrate you had traction, that doesn't mean it was any wiser to drive a 4wd on summers than a 2wd on summers on the road (how did the field come in?)...

Why wasn't it wiser? I had confidence in the car getting from A to B safely. I was aware of the grip limitations and at what speeds I could travel at. At no point (was probably out driving for 2-3 hours) did it ever feel unsafe.

The field was me just trying to highlight how much confidence I had in the cars (and my own) abilities. I know that might sound big headed and that isn't my intention. I enjoy driving and do a lot of off roading including competitions and have done many other grass roots motorsports over the years.

I've driven a lot of cars in the snow, fwd, rwd, 4wd and proper 4x4's. All of the 4wd's always go much better and the 4x4's the best.



The Subaru also has a very good awd system with a centre LSD. Using the gears and engine braking massively helped reduce lockup vs trying to slow with just the brakes alone.


My 200SX was surprisingly capable in the snow, mostly due to having an LSD (RWD) and fairly narrow tyres. But as you can see they were summer tyres. The Subaru was far more accomplished however.




I've also driven my 5.7 V8 Camaro (with an auto box) in the snow. Again thank to the LSD it was surprisingly more capable than you may think. It didn't like pulling away on a side cambre, the back would slide sideways instead of rotate the front wheels. But that will be the same for all rwd cars with an LSD. The biggest issue was you couldn't use the gears to slow it down very well, not because it was an auto. But the V8 had so much torque that when you downshifted it would almost instantly lock the rear wheels without even touching the brake pedal.


4wd did allow me to make a 190 mile round trip one winter, yes 190 miles.... All in snowy conditions. Again I wouldn't have dreamed of doing it in a 2wd car.

[jagnet]

macushla said:

The Cup are definitely summer tyres as they really only work in the dry

You're aware that it can rain during the summer? So a summer tyre that only really works in the dry is a bit pointless in the UK, no?

Tyres have developed in line with cars getter heavier, faster, and more technically accomplished. By necessity that biases them away from cold wintery conditions. Dedicated winter tyres were then developed to cope with those conditions and by virtue of not having to target summer conditions they could really focus on snow and ice performance.

All season tyres have been around for a while but it's only in the last few years that tyre tech has allowed them to better bridge the gap between summer and winter conditions. Previously they tended to fall far short of either.

Normal tyres are utterly woeful in snow and ice and therefore cannot be called all season tyres. Their construction and tread pattern is simply not designed to provide grip on snow.

[Shakermaker]

Pothole said:

A major solution would be more people thinking HARD about whether their journey in seriously adverse weather conditions is necessary. That would, of course, mean that many people would need access to a dictionary. I doubt that most people who get stuck in snow/drive off the road in rainstorms/kill their engines in floods have been caught out by sudden changes in weather, they've just decided to ignore advice or have major doubts about the accuracy of weather forecasts (because they're often inaccurate.

Are weather forecasts really that inaccurate these days? I hear it a lot on PH, but I don't think its the case these days.

[300bhp/ton]

Barchettaman said:

It snowed pretty much all day yesterday in Frankfurt, onto frozen tarmac. I couldn't get my car, on new Nexen all-seasons, to break traction at all. They're remarkably good!

It's statements like this that are total BS. Not trying to be rude, but most cars can break traction on dry tarmac. On snow you most certainly could with ease, even with winter tyres, else your car is borked!

[Graveworm]

macushla said:

Can’t be bothered. I’ve driven loads in winter time and whilst I did fit winter tyres to my last car I don’t see them as necessary. I won’t be fitting them to this car. Equally winter tyres were not an absolute solution to snow.

There are countries, which you are allowed to drive to, where you can run all season tyres all season, the same countries won't let you run your "All season tyres" in the winter QED

[Pothole]

macushla said:

Absolutely. Sadly, we’re in a world where people are removed from taking responsibility for their actions and then blame everyone else if it all goes tits up. If we’re also honest we’re all a bit guilty of that ourselves too.

I will sometimes ignore advice - occasionally because my bosses tell me to and I need to get paid. I take my lumps.

[300bhp/ton]

Car-Matt said:

ericmcn said:

Tired said:

That's what I do when it snows though. I enjoy it.

As for the 2WD/4WD comparisons with 'all other things being equal', they never are.

Even if you consider a car which is made in 2WD and 4WD flavour, the 4WD one is going to be heavier, which will adversely impact the ability to accelerate, brake, and turn, although may help traction.

BS and another misconception by gods on PH

a quick google yields this (approx weight) - the Subaru I have with all the bells and whistles of AWD, 50:50 torque bla bla is no heavier than any other comparable car in that format.

BMW 330i 2,045kg > RWD
Audi A4 3.0 Tdi 1609Kg > Quattro
Lexus IS250 2.5V6 1570kg > RWD
Subaru Legacy BL/BP 1,500kg > AWD - viscous centre diff, rear torsen diff - 50:50
Mazda 6 1522Kg > FWD SkyActiv-G 165PS
Jaguar X Type 3.0 V6 1710kg > RWD Supercharged
Subaru WRX STi final edition 1534kg > AWD / DCCD

Too much BS sprouted by people on here who dont what they are talking about

Erm why not look at models that come in both 2wd & 4wd...... then see which is heaviest rather than just being a blinkered Subaru fanboi

You’ll be telling us that that tyres don’t matter and judicious use of the handbrake and scandi flicks is the safest method of getting about in slippy roads next......oh hang on that’s the other one

My Jeep and Land Rover Series can be 2wd or 4wd and it changes the weight not at all

And nor does it have any impact on the tyres by selecting 2wd or 4wd. I can however proclaim that both vehicles are supremely more capable in 4wd vs 2wd when driving in snowy conditions. Regardless of the tyres they were fitted with.

[Barchettaman]

300bhp/ton said:

It's statements like this that are total BS. Not trying to be rude, but most cars can break traction on dry tarmac. On snow you most certainly could with ease, even with winter tyres, else your car is borked!

I didn’t realise you were there - were you hiding in the tailgate? Pity really, I’d have offered you a biscuit when we got home.

[Car-Matt]

300bhp/ton said:

FWD simply couldn't have done the same.

I dispute......https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l25XpoF8Ljg see glimpses in this video of a Works Ford FiestaRS BDA which had been prepped for the snowy Monte Carlo.

Plenty of other FWD rally cars too........oddly always on the correct tyres

Edited by Car-Matt on Friday 25th January 11:02