RE: Incredible Prodrive P25 revealed ahead of debut
Discussion
plenty said:
You're exactly right. It's exploiting nostalgia. It doesn't add anything to the story or move the needle in any way. It's just another expensive irrelevance that almost none of us will ever see let alone own. Which is fine if you like that sort of thing, but it bothers me when it's based on an Impreza, a car whose reputation is based on being accessible to the average person.
How many average people can access a WRC spec car or a 22B? I've been very fortunate to have got behind the wheel of both, and faster kit like the TA cars, but I'm far from normal in that respect. Even my JDM road car is becoming rare as rocking horse poo now, prices reflect that and are going up constantly.Edited by plenty on Wednesday 22 June 12:46
Jon_S_Rally said:
I think your post is a demonstration of Prodrive's error with marketing the P25. There has been too much talk of the 22B in relation to it but, from what has been shown, it has little in common with the 22B, and much more in common with a WRC car of the period. Compare the P25 to one of those and it starts to make much more sense. If Prodrive started making new '97 - '00 Impreza WRCs, this is the kind of money you'd pay for one, and that's probably the more sensible price comparison.
I think you're also dismissing Prodrive as a "tuner", which is a bit unfair. If this was someone like RCM, Litchfield or anyone like that, I'd definitely see your point (as good as those companies may be). Prodrive aren't a tuner, they're a world-renowned motorsport team, and the very same team that took Subaru to all of its WRC success. They're not a third party building knock-offs, they're the original Subaru rally gods, updating a concept that they created. Aside from an OEM doing something like this, you couldn't get more provenance. I'd also disagree with the "copy" assertion. It doesn't appear to be a copy, but an attempt to significantly update the car with modern technology, and attempt to make something that is as close as possible to a WRC car that you could reasonably use on the road.
As for it as a standalone product, you could argue that you could buy a supercar that is faster in some scenarios. On a B-road, I suspect this would probably hold its own against almost any road car you can buy. Again, as I said above though, I don't think a car like this (or any other restomod for that matter) can be looked at in purely objective terms, because the people that buy them aren't likely to be restricted to buying this INSTEAD of something else, but would be buying it AS WELL AS something else. It's not purely an objective purchase, but one influenced by any number of other things. They might be a fan of rare JDM cars, a rally obsessive, or whatever else. As I said in an earlier post, they're far more likely to be buying one of these to sit alongside a 22B than making an objective purchasing decision between the two. You could buy a car that's "better" than a Singer 911, but the waiting list for those shows that it's about much more than just what's "better".
In respect of your last question, I don't personally think that outright performance is really relevant to ultimate price, especially where toys like this are concerned. While it plays a part, it's as much about how the car makes the owner feel as anything. Using the Singer example again, you don't buy one of those for its ultimate performance, but for the way it's built, the fact it's totally bespoke to your request, for how it sounds, for how it feels to drive etc etc. This is the same. Owners aren't buying them for ultimate performance, they're buying them because they adore the Impreza and want the ultimate version, because they love how it looks, because they love that it's a WRC car for the road, because they love that it's so exclusive, or for any number of other reasons.
It seems that you're looking for objective reasons for someone to buy this car, but that's not really what it's about.
To summarise your points:I think you're also dismissing Prodrive as a "tuner", which is a bit unfair. If this was someone like RCM, Litchfield or anyone like that, I'd definitely see your point (as good as those companies may be). Prodrive aren't a tuner, they're a world-renowned motorsport team, and the very same team that took Subaru to all of its WRC success. They're not a third party building knock-offs, they're the original Subaru rally gods, updating a concept that they created. Aside from an OEM doing something like this, you couldn't get more provenance. I'd also disagree with the "copy" assertion. It doesn't appear to be a copy, but an attempt to significantly update the car with modern technology, and attempt to make something that is as close as possible to a WRC car that you could reasonably use on the road.
As for it as a standalone product, you could argue that you could buy a supercar that is faster in some scenarios. On a B-road, I suspect this would probably hold its own against almost any road car you can buy. Again, as I said above though, I don't think a car like this (or any other restomod for that matter) can be looked at in purely objective terms, because the people that buy them aren't likely to be restricted to buying this INSTEAD of something else, but would be buying it AS WELL AS something else. It's not purely an objective purchase, but one influenced by any number of other things. They might be a fan of rare JDM cars, a rally obsessive, or whatever else. As I said in an earlier post, they're far more likely to be buying one of these to sit alongside a 22B than making an objective purchasing decision between the two. You could buy a car that's "better" than a Singer 911, but the waiting list for those shows that it's about much more than just what's "better".
In respect of your last question, I don't personally think that outright performance is really relevant to ultimate price, especially where toys like this are concerned. While it plays a part, it's as much about how the car makes the owner feel as anything. Using the Singer example again, you don't buy one of those for its ultimate performance, but for the way it's built, the fact it's totally bespoke to your request, for how it sounds, for how it feels to drive etc etc. This is the same. Owners aren't buying them for ultimate performance, they're buying them because they adore the Impreza and want the ultimate version, because they love how it looks, because they love that it's a WRC car for the road, because they love that it's so exclusive, or for any number of other reasons.
It seems that you're looking for objective reasons for someone to buy this car, but that's not really what it's about.
1. Positioning it as a modern 22B is wrong. You suggest a WRC for the road is more appropriate.
2. You're describing Prodrive in your own manner, but to be clear, cannot describe it as an OEM.
3. You're saying it's objective performance is irrelevant, because one can buy something else instead / as well, and that objectivity is not possible.
4. Outright performance is not relevant, and there is some unquantifiable relationship to looks / WRC car for the road.
If that's more or less what you're saying, then what that suggests to me is that this car cannot be objectively considered.
I won't say that's wrong, only that it's not the basis upon which I would make a decision. Good luck to those who would.
plenty said:
cidered77 said:
businesses exist to make a return for their owner. That's like GCSE level business studies. The analogy works because in both cases, two business made decisions that annoyed a corner of the internet who were never going to buy the product anyway, and those decisions will very likely work out well for both of them....
Only one of us here is at GCSE level. Suggest you read up on brand strategy - it might just help you to understand why some random people on the internet respond the way they do.I mean before this insight, here is me thinking that Prodrive were a motorsports engineering business, who make their money partnering with various OEMs and teams to develop and operate racing teams & racecars, a business very not recession proof, and likely made up a series of overlapping mid to short term contracts... and... the opportunity to create a product that *people like and 25 people will buy*, and make let's say 100-150k per unit, so a nice 2m or so profit... i was thinking that is both A: pretty cool, and B: eminently sensible thing to do for that company's future. Use their history, together with the expertise they hold, and grab a bit of the 'ol zeitgeist. Which is very much restomods at the moment .
but - you do something with brand for a living, and you reckon that this venture means they will either not sell all these (but - they will,so..) or will damage their "brand" (but - their customers are a small number of organisations who want to go racing, not mass market, so..); so i now realise it's all going to fail, and am now educated.
Just not to GCSE level, course .
cidered77 said:
I mean before this insight, here is me thinking that Prodrive were a motorsports engineering business, who make their money partnering with various OEMs...
Now if only you'd actually said that rather than calling people names, we'd probably not be having this silly internet squabble.I don't doubt that the P25 will be a success for Prodrive. And I am under no illusions that my views represent anything but those of a very small minority.
However - dismissing the views of said minority simply because it's going to be a commercial success is a pretty good definition of uneducated. Perhaps you'd like to share an example of a commercial activity you'd find distasteful? I can then come back with the educated riposte 'you have no common sense...this will make money don'tcha know.'
cidered77 said:
right-o, will do .
I mean before this insight, here is me thinking that Prodrive were a motorsports engineering business, who make their money partnering with various OEMs and teams to develop and operate racing teams & racecars, a business very not recession proof, and likely made up a series of overlapping mid to short term contracts... and... the opportunity to create a product that *people like and 25 people will buy*, and make let's say 100-150k per unit, so a nice 2m or so profit... i was thinking that is both A: pretty cool, and B: eminently sensible thing to do for that company's future. Use their history, together with the expertise they hold, and grab a bit of the 'ol zeitgeist. Which is very much restomods at the moment .
but - you do something with brand for a living, and you reckon that this venture means they will either not sell all these (but - they will,so..) or will damage their "brand" (but - their customers are a small number of organisations who want to go racing, not mass market, so..); so i now realise it's all going to fail, and am now educated.
Just not to GCSE level, course .
These sorts of projects are generally "cash boosters" for companies! Not for nothing do car companies announce limited edition models with a large "cash up front" deposit to secure a build slot. There are few better ways of getting a large cash injection into a car company (see AML for details.......)I mean before this insight, here is me thinking that Prodrive were a motorsports engineering business, who make their money partnering with various OEMs and teams to develop and operate racing teams & racecars, a business very not recession proof, and likely made up a series of overlapping mid to short term contracts... and... the opportunity to create a product that *people like and 25 people will buy*, and make let's say 100-150k per unit, so a nice 2m or so profit... i was thinking that is both A: pretty cool, and B: eminently sensible thing to do for that company's future. Use their history, together with the expertise they hold, and grab a bit of the 'ol zeitgeist. Which is very much restomods at the moment .
but - you do something with brand for a living, and you reckon that this venture means they will either not sell all these (but - they will,so..) or will damage their "brand" (but - their customers are a small number of organisations who want to go racing, not mass market, so..); so i now realise it's all going to fail, and am now educated.
Just not to GCSE level, course .
plenty said:
cidered77 said:
I mean before this insight, here is me thinking that Prodrive were a motorsports engineering business, who make their money partnering with various OEMs...
Now if only you'd actually said that rather than calling people names, we'd probably not be having this silly internet squabble.I don't doubt that the P25 will be a success for Prodrive. And I am under no illusions that my views represent anything but those of a very small minority.
However - dismissing the views of said minority simply because it's going to be a commercial success is a pretty good definition of uneducated. Perhaps you'd like to share an example of a commercial activity you'd find distasteful? I can then come back with the educated riposte 'you have no common sense...this will make money don'tcha know.'
I could provide many views on commercial activity i find distasteful, not hard to find. A beautifully engineered and incredible looking 90s WRC throwback retromod is a long way from say, the West Coast tech companies driving single greatest degradation of practical human intelligence in allll history though (sorry, i just really hate FB algorithms and meme-based opinion forming, but i digress).
Plus come on chap, your arguments in this particular bit with me look to be ridiculously out of context notions of "brand direction and strategy", for something that needs 25 buyers. It's hardly positioned as something offending your moral compass, right? Just your marketing textbook - which is totally irrelevant for something this low volume..... plus is surely good for their brand anyway, to the admittedly uneducated (not even GCSE level ...) layman here.
jsf said:
plenty said:
For someone with your background John, it couldn't be more obvious why they're worlds apart.
For other people, they're blue Imprezas.
I would expect Will knows better than that. For other people, they're blue Imprezas.
As a side note, I think I've just twigged who you are jsf, if I'm right we have met and chatted Subaru a couple of times in the distant past
RB Will said:
I do. I wasn't meaning the P1 as a direct comparison part for part with the P25 and anyone should recognise that what they are doing now is beyond what they did with the P1 as I said in my original post. Just giving it as an example of previous work they did that didn't cost the earth, despite having engineers developing their own chassis setup, having a top designer doing body parts for it, custom tooling etc and yes potentially spreading that development cost over about 40 times as many cars would help, or maybe Subaru paid them for it, hence keeping costs low.
As a side note, I think I've just twigged who you are jsf, if I'm right we have met and chatted Subaru a couple of times in the distant past
I would expect so Will. As a side note, I think I've just twigged who you are jsf, if I'm right we have met and chatted Subaru a couple of times in the distant past
The vast majority of the P1 was standard OEM parts, and not the exciting ones in the transmition.
I was pretty disappointed with it at the time, but I'm far more aware now of why they did it the way they did. It certainly sold well. It's not great compared to an STi5 Type RA or STi Type R, but it was UK backed, which helped for most people.
God knows how they got away with those Pirelli tyres though, they were shockingly bad. The only good thing about them was they were so low grip you could slide the car a bit, i put a set of P1 wheels and tyres on my RA for a test, it's was almost undrivable.
It wasn't until the WR1 (ignoring the 16 22B Type UK which were a year late to UK market due to people like me
) before the UK cars started to drive like the better JDM's, for obvious reasons.Max_Torque said:
These sorts of projects are generally "cash boosters" for companies! Not for nothing do car companies announce limited edition models with a large "cash up front" deposit to secure a build slot. There are few better ways of getting a large cash injection into a car company (see AML for details.......)
You will rock some people's world posting that, particularly as you do have actual 'industry experience' 
trails said:
Max_Torque said:
These sorts of projects are generally "cash boosters" for companies! Not for nothing do car companies announce limited edition models with a large "cash up front" deposit to secure a build slot. There are few better ways of getting a large cash injection into a car company (see AML for details.......)
You will rock some people's world posting that, particularly as you do have actual 'industry experience' For more mainstream stuff where deposits are placed with a dealer, that's where they stay.
For direct sales stuff and hypercars where it goes direct through the OEM, any customer deposits or prospective reservations have to be kept so far detached from any operational spend that other than some potential minor income on interest, it provides no usable "cash injection".
Great post Slippy and I completely agree.
WRC cars are completely different from their road car equivalents, from the window line down they are almost completely bespoke.
I've seen some of the engineering involved and the performance they offer, I've sat in a WRC Focus on gravel, i's a different thing to this car, they do things you struggle to compute and they will do that time and time again on almost any surface.
This isn't a WRC light, more a heavily modified road car.
I don't doubt the quality of what they have turned out but 500k+ is a joke.
From someones else post, but some perspective ' that’s a brand new Lamborghini Urus £160k with a new Brian James race shuttle £20K to tow around a new R5 of your choice £200k (which is an engineering marvel) , running the car for a Full BRC £150K and finishing the season with £22K spare to make up to your missus for a seasons rallying with a slap up holiday in the Maldives 🇲🇻 that’s if you haven’t spent the remaining budget on more rallying… Year 2, sell the Urus to fund a 2nd BRC'
WRC cars are completely different from their road car equivalents, from the window line down they are almost completely bespoke.
I've seen some of the engineering involved and the performance they offer, I've sat in a WRC Focus on gravel, i's a different thing to this car, they do things you struggle to compute and they will do that time and time again on almost any surface.
This isn't a WRC light, more a heavily modified road car.
I don't doubt the quality of what they have turned out but 500k+ is a joke.
From someones else post, but some perspective ' that’s a brand new Lamborghini Urus £160k with a new Brian James race shuttle £20K to tow around a new R5 of your choice £200k (which is an engineering marvel) , running the car for a Full BRC £150K and finishing the season with £22K spare to make up to your missus for a seasons rallying with a slap up holiday in the Maldives 🇲🇻 that’s if you haven’t spent the remaining budget on more rallying… Year 2, sell the Urus to fund a 2nd BRC'
“Having spent over an hour chatting with Matt, I then went to speak to Olly ...
On the basis that if you've nothing good to say about someone, say nothing, I'll have to leave it at that ...
So much as I'd like to have availed myself of RCM's services, one of the brothers ensured I didn't ”
Surprised to hear that, been dealing with them for years with my build and they have both always been great.
Olly has always been available to chat or reply to emails with copious information on any questions all hours and Matt also helpful and when on a tight timeframe to build my engine they got the short motor together and Matt personally drove it 100 miles here to me and chatted for a bit
On the basis that if you've nothing good to say about someone, say nothing, I'll have to leave it at that ...
So much as I'd like to have availed myself of RCM's services, one of the brothers ensured I didn't ”
Surprised to hear that, been dealing with them for years with my build and they have both always been great.
Olly has always been available to chat or reply to emails with copious information on any questions all hours and Matt also helpful and when on a tight timeframe to build my engine they got the short motor together and Matt personally drove it 100 miles here to me and chatted for a bit
RB Will said:
“Having spent over an hour chatting with Matt, I then went to speak to Olly ...
On the basis that if you've nothing good to say about someone, say nothing, I'll have to leave it at that ...
So much as I'd like to have availed myself of RCM's services, one of the brothers ensured I didn't ”
Surprised to hear that, been dealing with them for years with my build and they have both always been great.
Olly has always been available to chat or reply to emails with copious information on any questions all hours and Matt also helpful and when on a tight timeframe to build my engine they got the short motor together and Matt personally drove it 100 miles here to me and chatted for a bit
Must have caught him on a bad day ? On the basis that if you've nothing good to say about someone, say nothing, I'll have to leave it at that ...
So much as I'd like to have availed myself of RCM's services, one of the brothers ensured I didn't ”
Surprised to hear that, been dealing with them for years with my build and they have both always been great.
Olly has always been available to chat or reply to emails with copious information on any questions all hours and Matt also helpful and when on a tight timeframe to build my engine they got the short motor together and Matt personally drove it 100 miles here to me and chatted for a bit
If I could have dealt solely with Matt, I'm sure a 400-450hp 22B would have been the end result. For someone who is so incredibly talented, he was incredibly humble, a shame the same couldn't be said for his brother
It doesn't surprise me Matt was prepared to drive the car over to you, he seemed like that sort, and he no doubt wanted to check/test the fruits of his labour too.
Insert Coin said:
Epic post, did that build get documented on here at all? 
CarCrazyDad said:
Nice build slippydiff.
Out of interest has the car been completed?
What was the total cost out of interest.
To answer both your questions, no the build wasn't documented, either on here or elsewhere. The project wasn't completed because the ever helpful gents at WRC Spares Plymouth (Rodney and Steve) could see I was spending, nee wasting, huge amounts of money with them on S5 parts, and being the kind, decent, honest individuals they are, they pointed out the end result of what I was attempting to build wouldn't justify the very significant outlay, and thus they proceeded to source me an S5 WRC car (complete with the all important Prodrive chassis plate) Out of interest has the car been completed?
What was the total cost out of interest.
Fear not, I'll post another instalment of the saga (complete with images) in the next few days.
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