RE: Lotus: Dead weight lifted or dead man walking?
Discussion
The Crack Fox said:
Wow ! Show me where I can buy a kit car like that please ? Leather, aluminium, satnav, aircon and all nicely put together with a decent warranty etc....
I bet you'd w*nk yourself raw of the excitement of Audi interiors. Meanwhile, Lotus continue to make excellent sportscars...
In fairness the sat nav isn't very good but then why people spec their cars with such technology that will become outdated almost immediately and cost far more than something far better and portable always bemuses me. Then again I have never owned one or felt the need to.I bet you'd w*nk yourself raw of the excitement of Audi interiors. Meanwhile, Lotus continue to make excellent sportscars...
Agree that the interior is a nice play to be, is very comfy and as far as I could tell in a week and well over 1000 miles of driving it seemed pretty well made too.
zebedee said:
In fairness the sat nav isn't very good but then why people spec their cars with such technology that will become outdated almost immediately and cost far more than something far better and portable always bemuses me. Then again I have never owned one or felt the need to.
Agree that the interior is a nice play to be, is very comfy and as far as I could tell in a week and well over 1000 miles of driving it seemed pretty well made too.
The satnav isn't an option by itself, it's part of the tech pack, which if you want the better stereo, cruise control and possibility of having a reversing camera option, then you have to choose it and get the satnav with it.Agree that the interior is a nice play to be, is very comfy and as far as I could tell in a week and well over 1000 miles of driving it seemed pretty well made too.
It is pretty crap though, the updated 2011 Alpine seems a bit better, but not by much. The 2012 cars have a Pioneer I believe?
It's a standard double din unit though, so easily replaceable.
Like you say though, I just use NavFree on my phone, works better and is free
ewenm said:
Which is fine, as long as the person who originally bought the new 911 GT3 didn't get put off buying it when a PHer suggested they should buy a secondhand Ferrari 430 instead.
Someone has to buy the new cars for you to be able to choose a secondhand 911 GT3 over a new Evora S. This is why new vs used comparisons are foolish. Used is always better value, but you still need people to buy new for their to be any used options. Many on PH like to deride those who buy new - they should be thanking them instead.
I'm not deriding people for buying new. There are plenty of reasons to buy a new car. Likewise I'm not comparing old vs new in terms of the actual car, I HATE it when people do. Someone has to buy the new cars for you to be able to choose a secondhand 911 GT3 over a new Evora S. This is why new vs used comparisons are foolish. Used is always better value, but you still need people to buy new for their to be any used options. Many on PH like to deride those who buy new - they should be thanking them instead.
Edited by ewenm on Tuesday 10th July 11:34
But as I stated in my opening comment, I think enthusiasts in general would prefer to go second hand and get 'more' for their money. I obviously dont have any evidence to back this up but in my opinion the large number of low mileage GT3s in the classifies for the price of a new Evora is not helping Lotus sales.
The new GT3 argument vs used F430 is different in my view because neither rely on enthusiasts buying them.
The Crack Fox said:
I bet you'd w*nk yourself raw of the excitement of Audi interiors. Meanwhile, Lotus continue to make excellent sportscars...
I most certainly do not. In fairness, the new cars are meant to be much improved inside. However, they are not selling, so something needs to change.kambites said:
I'd buy a 40k second-hand Evora and put 20k into my mortgage.
New cars never make financial sense compared to second hand ones.
There you have perfectly encapsulated my point and the problem Lotus have. New cars never make financial sense compared to second hand ones.
You Mr Kambites, the man who never stops telling everyone how fantastic his Elise is. As if your car had come down through a pipeline from the heavens..
Even if YOU had the money to buy a new Lotus you still wouldnt buy a shiney one from a dealer. This is the problem Lotus have in my opinion, many people would love an Evora but not enough of those people willing to buy one new.
caine100 said:
the new cars are meant to be much improved inside.
They really aren't, a few extra bits of leather and some different stitching is about it, it is very minor facelift in terms of the interior. Another Lotus marketing blunder releasing that list, you dont see other manufacturers doing the same when they do minor model revisions, do you? Or do they, and did the press just pick up on it specifically this time for a bit of Lotus bashing?
trooperiziz said:
They really aren't, a few extra bits of leather and some different stitching is about it, it is very minor facelift in terms of the interior.
Another Lotus marketing blunder releasing that list, you dont see other manufacturers doing the same when they do minor model revisions, do you? Or do they, and did the press just pick up on it specifically this time for a bit of Lotus bashing?
Didn't it all follow something Clarkson slagged off about the stitching, hence everyone deciding they had 'kit car interiors' so you can understand Lotus saying 'look, it is sorted now anyway'. Not that anyone listens because they all take Clarkson as gospel, even though he hates cars.Another Lotus marketing blunder releasing that list, you dont see other manufacturers doing the same when they do minor model revisions, do you? Or do they, and did the press just pick up on it specifically this time for a bit of Lotus bashing?
justin220 said:
Interior of a kit car? Really? I like it. I certainly prefer it to the usual Audi/Porsche snorefest interior. Well built maybe, but my god the interiors are boring to look at.
I take you point mostly, but you have to be careful here, if you compare the interior of a what? £60+K Evora to a £30K Audi/BMW, then consider what they will both look like after 3 years and 60,000 miles, are they really up to the quality of a £60+K car?I think the problem here is people are generalising over the whole raft of issues/cars.
The Evora is not an Elise, it's nothing like it, and to be blunt, a person who is looking at an Elise would not look at an Evora or vice-versa.
As I said before, I don't want a Porsche, not because I can't afford one, but because I don't want one, they don't make a car that fit's with what I want out of a car, that's not to say I don't like them though or recognise that they are very impressive well engineered cars.
I happen to spend most of my time driving about in either an Audi or a Navara, and yes, I know an Evora handles better than both of them, but once again, I don't want one, it does not meet my personal needs/priorities.
Now, what I do want is a new Elise that is true to the original design brief for the Elise, but brought up to date, I don't want it to be an over-speced, over-weight attempt at an everyday car, I want it to be something special to use as a weekend toy.
the way I see it, if Lotus continue to try and compete with the mainstream, they might just as well shut the doors now, cause realistically that's just not going to work for them, they need to make their cars special, different, desirable (as well as reliable, quality builds etc).
If they came up with an Esprit that looked the part, had a 600+ hp engine attached to a gearbox that worked, with an interior that did not look like it was stuck together with Bostic, in a car ~1100Kg's and the performance to BEET the Ferrari/Lambo/etc. then yes, they could charge £160+K for it, BUT it has to be dam near perfect, and supported by dealers that do give a s**t etc.
in-between these two, is a very hard place to be in the market, the 911 and Audi R8 etc are very good cars, and to try and go up against them is pointless for Lotus.
Kong said:
kambites said:
I'd buy a 40k second-hand Evora and put 20k into my mortgage.
New cars never make financial sense compared to second hand ones.
There you have perfectly encapsulated my point and the problem Lotus have. New cars never make financial sense compared to second hand ones.
You Mr Kambites, the man who never stops telling everyone how fantastic his Elise is. As if your car had come down through a pipeline from the heavens..
Even if YOU had the money to buy a new Lotus you still wouldnt buy a shiney one from a dealer. This is the problem Lotus have in my opinion, many people would love an Evora but not enough of those people willing to buy one new.
(actually, I'd probably buy a 30k Exige S and put 60k on my mortgage)
otolith said:
I think that's more a reflection of his opinion of new cars, not of Evoras. Personally, if I had 90k for a new 911, I'd buy the 40k used Evora and put 50k on my mortgage.
(actually, I'd probably buy a 30k Exige S and put 60k on my mortgage)
Well so would I and so would Mr Kambites (probably). Again, this merely illustrates my point that there arent enough people willing to buy a new Evora. Porsche don't care if you buy a used Evora (or a new one) because you're clearly not their target customer. (actually, I'd probably buy a 30k Exige S and put 60k on my mortgage)
The Crack Fox said:
Scuffers said:
the 911 and Audi R8 etc are very good cars, and to try and go up against them is pointless for Lotus.
As someone who finds the 911 a bit too mainstream, and the R8 too 'fashionable', I hope that Lotus continue the fight. In the meantime, I'll keep saving....we can all have an opinion, but unless your actually in that potential customer bracket, your personal priorities/values are meaningless.
much like the 'for that money I would buy a second-hand XYZ and pay off the mortgage' is also irrelevant.
otolith said:
I think that's more a reflection of his opinion of new cars, not of Evoras. Personally, if I had 90k for a new 911, I'd buy the 40k used Evora and put 50k on my mortgage.
(actually, I'd probably buy a 30k Exige S and put 60k on my mortgage)
I think that's the point though. I don't think many of the kind of people who would buy a current Lotus, are the kinds of people who would buy a brand new car.(actually, I'd probably buy a 30k Exige S and put 60k on my mortgage)
That's why Lotus' residuals are so strong, and why Lotus struggle to sell new cars.
kambites said:
I think that's the point though. I don't think many of the kind of people who would buy a current Lotus, are the kinds of people who would buy a brand new car.
don't agree, that's just the hangover from the current Elise ownership demographic.Back in 1997-2000 plenty of people were buying them new and queing up to do so.
come up with the right car now, I see no reason it could not be the same, the hard part is it has to be the right car at the right money etc.
Scuffers said:
come up with the right car now, I see no reason it could not be the same, the hard part is it has to be the right car at the right money etc.
The question in my mind is "what is the right car". I really hope I'm wrong, but I've a feeling that the answer is "one where the primary focus is on interior plastics not driving dynamics". I hope Lotus continue to sell the kinds of cars that they're so good at so I have something three or four years old to replace my Elise with if I ever need to; but that is, in itself, not very helpful for Lotus.
kambites said:
The question in my mind is "what is the right car". I really hope I'm wrong, but I've a feeling that the answer is "one where the primary focus is on interior plastics not driving dynamics".
you may be right, whereas the real answer should be something that's not like any other car out there.Scuffers said:
kambites said:
The question in my mind is "what is the right car". I really hope I'm wrong, but I've a feeling that the answer is "one where the primary focus is on interior plastics not driving dynamics".
you may be right, whereas the real answer should be something that's not like any other car out there.It has to justify it's price tag. Not just be Lotus wanting / trying to pitch a certain price point and failing to come up with the necessary car to fit the target. It's no good just going "There it is, it ain't quite right but you expected that. It's bloody good to drive though, so you'll buy it won't you?..."
The Evora is clearly a cracking car (no pun intended), but it simply doesn't justify it's price to enough of the people that might have the money to pay for it.
I so wish that without all sorts of crap getting in the way, especially from a red tape point of view, that we could have some great & proper Lotus motors and some equally great tie-ups / Lotus breathed on models in the guise of a hot hatch or alike.
Will this happen? I don't know, but for it to happen they need some dosh and to keep focused.
Lotus really should be like the word Cosworth when you hear it, but the Lotus name just doesn't have that sparkle. Probably because they consistently under deliver in too many ways and expect their chassis dynamics to pick up the slack. Unfortunately, it isn't working. A bang up to date Lotus Carlton / Cortina would be a good place to start - although I don't know exactly what that'd be.
The Evora is clearly a cracking car (no pun intended), but it simply doesn't justify it's price to enough of the people that might have the money to pay for it.
I so wish that without all sorts of crap getting in the way, especially from a red tape point of view, that we could have some great & proper Lotus motors and some equally great tie-ups / Lotus breathed on models in the guise of a hot hatch or alike.
Will this happen? I don't know, but for it to happen they need some dosh and to keep focused.
Lotus really should be like the word Cosworth when you hear it, but the Lotus name just doesn't have that sparkle. Probably because they consistently under deliver in too many ways and expect their chassis dynamics to pick up the slack. Unfortunately, it isn't working. A bang up to date Lotus Carlton / Cortina would be a good place to start - although I don't know exactly what that'd be.
The Crack Fox said:
and the R8 too 'fashionable',
Does sticking loads of plastic egg crate material all over the front of a car make it fashionable? I do quite like them apart from that unforgivable cheap plastic kak all over the front, it is a real mess and totally unfitting of a car of that value. The Evoras venting is done in a much more subtle and nicer manner.PastorOfMuppets said:
Lotus really should be like the word Cosworth when you hear it, but the Lotus name just doesn't have that sparkle. Probably because they consistently under deliver in too many ways and expect their chassis dynamics to pick up the slack. Unfortunately, it isn't working. A bang up to date Lotus Carlton / Cortina would be a good place to start - although I don't know exactly what that'd be.
Agreed...the problem these days with a Lotus Carlton would be that all the mainstream makes who would want a barn-storming version of their re-mobile already have one.
Merc - AMG, Audi RS, BMW M, Vauxhall VXR, etc etc...
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