Discussion
ericmcn said:
They are like iphones (being an outsider I use a Galaxy Note) - much of the sales of German cars are due to marketing, adverts and finance deals - nothing particularly wrong with that itself but the cars themselves are nothing special and quality has taken a turn for the worse now with so many cars being churned out (BMW how many models do they have?), quality was much better back in the old days and having a Merc / BMW / Audi back then was rather special, now you have everyone on your street with a BMW /Audi on finance , having a dealers view to back up the quality statement would be better than some of the rose tinted folk on here of course
https://www.dw.com/en/does-the-world-still-love-ge...
The professional's view
So, a little expensive but stylish, sturdy and unaffected by negative publicity appears to be the state of play. For experienced car dealers such as Darren Gaye, who works at a large private dealership generally focused on German brands in the Irish capital Dublin, the picture is a little more nuanced
He says that in his experience, a number of BMW and Mercedes models had multiple problems from the mid-2000s on, which has affected their popularity significantly with consumers.
"Certain BMW models, the BMW 3 and the BMW 5, were burning oil and have given drivers so much trouble. For me, BMWs are still a great driving car and a great looking car, but they have just been notoriously poorly put together recently," he said.
Also critical of developments at Mercedes, he says that from 2003 or so on, the brand became "pretty unreliable."
He believes that cars in the Volkswagen Group (for example, Audi, Porsche, Volkswagen), have become the most reliable German models, and he singles out Audi for particular praise, saying they identified and successfully capitalized on problems their rivals BMW and Mercedes were having.
"BMW has slipped back. Every time someone is looking at a BMW with me that has that problematic engine, that everyone knows about, the first question is — has that problem been fixed?
"Whereas Audis are very popular with us. They are deemed reliable and their value gets better because of everything. The public perception would be that they are more in demand because the value is being held in them."
As to whether Dieselgate has affected his customers' views on German cars, Gaye says it was only an issue for a few months when the scandal broke, specifically with Volkswagen models.
"People realize that VWs are still brilliant cars and it is never ever mentioned now. If I have a Volkswagen here and it's a nice one and it is good value, it will sell without any questions asked. And it has not affected the sales as far as I can see of the Volkswagen group. Their global sales reflect that."
This seems to back up my statement along with the chap in Dublin, Seems to me greedy chiefs at BMW are more concerned at churning out model after model of cars (most of them underwhelming) and not paying much attention to the QA work that needs to be carried out.https://www.dw.com/en/does-the-world-still-love-ge...
The professional's view
So, a little expensive but stylish, sturdy and unaffected by negative publicity appears to be the state of play. For experienced car dealers such as Darren Gaye, who works at a large private dealership generally focused on German brands in the Irish capital Dublin, the picture is a little more nuanced
He says that in his experience, a number of BMW and Mercedes models had multiple problems from the mid-2000s on, which has affected their popularity significantly with consumers.
"Certain BMW models, the BMW 3 and the BMW 5, were burning oil and have given drivers so much trouble. For me, BMWs are still a great driving car and a great looking car, but they have just been notoriously poorly put together recently," he said.
Also critical of developments at Mercedes, he says that from 2003 or so on, the brand became "pretty unreliable."
He believes that cars in the Volkswagen Group (for example, Audi, Porsche, Volkswagen), have become the most reliable German models, and he singles out Audi for particular praise, saying they identified and successfully capitalized on problems their rivals BMW and Mercedes were having.
"BMW has slipped back. Every time someone is looking at a BMW with me that has that problematic engine, that everyone knows about, the first question is — has that problem been fixed?
"Whereas Audis are very popular with us. They are deemed reliable and their value gets better because of everything. The public perception would be that they are more in demand because the value is being held in them."
As to whether Dieselgate has affected his customers' views on German cars, Gaye says it was only an issue for a few months when the scandal broke, specifically with Volkswagen models.
"People realize that VWs are still brilliant cars and it is never ever mentioned now. If I have a Volkswagen here and it's a nice one and it is good value, it will sell without any questions asked. And it has not affected the sales as far as I can see of the Volkswagen group. Their global sales reflect that."
"Owners of BMW cars that were recalled for an exhaust gas recirculation valve leak have been left without their vehicles for up to eight weeks because the German manufacturer is struggling to obtain replacement parts quickly enough.
Customers have been using courtesy vehicles and hire cars in the meantime while their motors are held by BMW dealerships waiting for hundreds of thousands of EGR valve components to arrive.
The recall, issued last October, impacts some 268,000 UK-registered diesel-powered BMW models and around 1.6million in total worldwide.
One This is Money reader who has been caught-up in the melee is having to drive a replacement Vauxhall Astra while his £38,000 BMW is stuck at the dealership - and he has no idea when he will get it back."
Source: https://pressfrom.info/uk/news/cars/-320485-my-38-...
aaron_2000 said:
Now that depends on the 320d. For example:
I'd choose a Legacy Spec.B estate with a manual over an E46 320d SE touring with an auto.
But I'd choose an E92 320d M Sport over the Legacy.
In all fairness to Little Rick, the H6 in the Legacy is a lovely engine, and the estate looks brilliant, interior has aged pretty good as well. But if he's so obsessed with "racing" German cars, I can't understand why he didn't get a Subaru that could actually leave them, E.G an Impreza. I drove a Legacy Spec.B estate that I was interested in buying, my old E46 330d 184 was noticeably the quicker car.
I am not 'racing' German cars, but thats the illusion that has played out here - I am merely going from A to B and minding my own business, said German cars taking an interest in mine has nothing to do with me.I'd choose a Legacy Spec.B estate with a manual over an E46 320d SE touring with an auto.
But I'd choose an E92 320d M Sport over the Legacy.
In all fairness to Little Rick, the H6 in the Legacy is a lovely engine, and the estate looks brilliant, interior has aged pretty good as well. But if he's so obsessed with "racing" German cars, I can't understand why he didn't get a Subaru that could actually leave them, E.G an Impreza. I drove a Legacy Spec.B estate that I was interested in buying, my old E46 330d 184 was noticeably the quicker car.
A 320D in any guise is boring and a Subaru Legacy SpecB with a manual box is a far more engaging drive, the figures dont lie, its far quicker to 60 and to 100 and it wont be left behind doing over takes or between 50/60 and 100, plus with the AWD its going to handle better and along a winding B it would be much more fun.
I dont want an Impreza btw, imagine the attention that would draw.......
ericmcn said:
I am not 'racing' German cars, but thats the illusion that has played out here - I am merely going from A to B and minding my own business, said German cars taking an interest in mine has nothing to do with me.
A 320D in any guise is boring and a Subaru Legacy SpecB with a manual box is a far more engaging drive, the figures dont lie, its far quicker to 60 and to 100 and it wont be left behind doing over takes or between 50/60 and 100, plus with the AWD its going to handle better and along a winding B it would be much more fun.
I dont want an Impreza btw, imagine the attention that would draw.......
No, that’s because of your video and constant references to performance specs. You’re as far wrong about the 3 series as you are about your own car. This has everything to do with you and your daft attitude towards German vehicles. A 320D in any guise is boring and a Subaru Legacy SpecB with a manual box is a far more engaging drive, the figures dont lie, its far quicker to 60 and to 100 and it wont be left behind doing over takes or between 50/60 and 100, plus with the AWD its going to handle better and along a winding B it would be much more fun.
I dont want an Impreza btw, imagine the attention that would draw.......
ericmcn said:
aaron_2000 said:
Now that depends on the 320d. For example:
I'd choose a Legacy Spec.B estate with a manual over an E46 320d SE touring with an auto.
But I'd choose an E92 320d M Sport over the Legacy.
In all fairness to Little Rick, the H6 in the Legacy is a lovely engine, and the estate looks brilliant, interior has aged pretty good as well. But if he's so obsessed with "racing" German cars, I can't understand why he didn't get a Subaru that could actually leave them, E.G an Impreza. I drove a Legacy Spec.B estate that I was interested in buying, my old E46 330d 184 was noticeably the quicker car.
I am not 'racing' German cars, but thats the illusion that has played out here - I am merely going from A to B and minding my own business, said German cars taking an interest in mine has nothing to do with me.I'd choose a Legacy Spec.B estate with a manual over an E46 320d SE touring with an auto.
But I'd choose an E92 320d M Sport over the Legacy.
In all fairness to Little Rick, the H6 in the Legacy is a lovely engine, and the estate looks brilliant, interior has aged pretty good as well. But if he's so obsessed with "racing" German cars, I can't understand why he didn't get a Subaru that could actually leave them, E.G an Impreza. I drove a Legacy Spec.B estate that I was interested in buying, my old E46 330d 184 was noticeably the quicker car.
A 320D in any guise is boring and a Subaru Legacy SpecB with a manual box is a far more engaging drive, the figures dont lie, its far quicker to 60 and to 100 and it wont be left behind doing over takes or between 50/60 and 100, plus with the AWD its going to handle better and along a winding B it would be much more fun.
I dont want an Impreza btw, imagine the attention that would draw.......
t that it's laughable. 
budgie smuggler said:
Rawwr said:
ericmcn said:
plus with the AWD its going to handle better
thinks a heavy front engine GT like a F-type can be a substitute for a mid engine, low COG and low PMOI car like a Cayman when they are at the polar opposite emds of the spectrum in terms of handling characteristics and packaging for performance cars.
Rawwr said:
I tend to have this belief that anyone who posts lists of performance figures doesn't really understand cars. This thread has enforced that belief so much.
Unfortunately 0-60 etc still sells cars to some, even though it’s mostly either destructive or not easily achieved by the owner. These days, I guess it’s slightly easier with the electronics? Still, no bearing on how much fun, or what a chassis does. I know the ubiquitous 320d is the subject of a lot of negative posts, but, as an ex owner of one, along with the E90 M3, for me, the 320 is a better car upto normal road speeds. An M3 just crushes it’s way along, massive tyres and power, mostly top end it has to be said. In comparison something on balloon tyres and compliant springs is far less work, and doesn’t need to be doing 100mph (up a slip road or otherwise) to make sense.
yonex said:
Unfortunately 0-60 etc still sells cars to some, even though it’s mostly either destructive or not easily achieved by the owner. These days, I guess it’s slightly easier with the electronics? Still, no bearing on how much fun, or what a chassis does.
I know the ubiquitous 320d is the subject of a lot of negative posts, but, as an ex owner of one, along with the E90 M3, for me, the 320 is a better car upto normal road speeds. An M3 just crushes it’s way along, massive tyres and power, mostly top end it has to be said. In comparison something on balloon tyres and compliant springs is far less work, and doesn’t need to be doing 100mph (up a slip road or otherwise) to make sense.
Im in a weird position at the minute. I drive an A4 2 litre diesel ultra. Its a great car for cruising to work. Cant say its fun, but i have never been in a situation that its not been enough for normal driving and even being a bit more aggresive with it.I know the ubiquitous 320d is the subject of a lot of negative posts, but, as an ex owner of one, along with the E90 M3, for me, the 320 is a better car upto normal road speeds. An M3 just crushes it’s way along, massive tyres and power, mostly top end it has to be said. In comparison something on balloon tyres and compliant springs is far less work, and doesn’t need to be doing 100mph (up a slip road or otherwise) to make sense.
I drove an S5 and it had that great acceleration, felt more planted etc, but for 95% of the driving i do there is little between the two cars.
Then consider the more sedate driving of the diesel on non run flats and it makes sense for a lot of people
euphoricmess said:
Im in a weird position at the minute. I drive an A4 2 litre diesel ultra. Its a great car for cruising to work. Cant say its fun, but i have never been in a situation that its not been enough for normal driving and even being a bit more aggresive with it.
I drove an S5 and it had that great acceleration, felt more planted etc, but for 95% of the driving i do there is little between the two cars.
Then consider the more sedate driving of the diesel on non run flats and it makes sense for a lot of people
Have you tried a Legacy Spec B? I drove an S5 and it had that great acceleration, felt more planted etc, but for 95% of the driving i do there is little between the two cars.
Then consider the more sedate driving of the diesel on non run flats and it makes sense for a lot of people
I lived in a number of cities in the UK so on facebook I am subscribed to numerous local papers.
The local news has little to talk about so they love it when there's a good crime story
About 70% of the time there is a hit and run or robbery it always seems to be an Audi A3 driven by an Ali-G impersonator.
https://www.derbytelegraph.co.uk/news/derby-news/h...
https://www.derbytelegraph.co.uk/news/local-news/f...
I find BMW 1 series and Mercedes A classes are driven in a normal manner but I don't know why the bottom feeders in society are drawn to the A3.
My apologies if I offend you. I really have nothing against people who drive Audi's.
Even the people who stole my bike came in an Audi.
The local news has little to talk about so they love it when there's a good crime story
About 70% of the time there is a hit and run or robbery it always seems to be an Audi A3 driven by an Ali-G impersonator.
https://www.derbytelegraph.co.uk/news/derby-news/h...
https://www.derbytelegraph.co.uk/news/local-news/f...
I find BMW 1 series and Mercedes A classes are driven in a normal manner but I don't know why the bottom feeders in society are drawn to the A3.
My apologies if I offend you. I really have nothing against people who drive Audi's.
Even the people who stole my bike came in an Audi.
ericmcn said:
J4CKO said:
They both do 100 mph in 18 ish secs, am sure the Subaru is preferable in a lot of ways but dont get the idea it is massively faster than something like a 320D, they shift very well for what they are.
try stop and start traffic, no lag in the Legacy - if a 320d was slowing down at 50mph the Legacy would leave it behind easily, ditto to overtakes as previously mentioned. 0-60 in the Legacy is 6.5s or so which is much faster than that 320D, overall the 3.0 engine is far smoother right to the red line with no lag or anything to worry about and I think you need to look into the SpecB a bit more, it can do 100 faster than 18secondsEngine: 3000 cc (183.0 ci) 24 Valve
Transmission: 6 speed/ Manual
Top Speed: 151 mph (243.0 kph)
0-60 mph (96.6 kph): 6.5 secs
0-100 kph (0-62 mph): 6.7 secs
0-100 mph (160.9 kph): 14.0 secs
Power: 241 bhp (179 kW) @ 6600 rpm
Kerbweight: 1515 kgs (3340 lbs)
Torque: 219 lb-ft (326.7 Nm) @ 4200 rpm
Drive: AWD | Engine Location: F
1/4 Mile (Est.): 14.53 secs @ 94.2 mph
BHP Per Ton: 159.0 bhp
Torque Per Ton: 144.5 lb-ft
Even if it is, it isnt going to romp away from a 320D on the move, those things move pretty well, most are 8 speed autos that shift in milliseconds, 300 odd lb ft of torque.
I had a 225 TT, with a remap and my mates Golff MK5 GT D (170) was pretty much as quick, remember following a well driven Seat Ecomotive diesel in my 350Z and was amazed how well it covered ground.
Dont get me wrong, I quite like the Legacy but I just dont think they are as fast as you believe and would struggle against a modern 2 litre diesel.
yonex said:
An ok car that's not very fast.
0-100 mph (160.9 kph): 14.0 secs
I can't imagine not having something faster.
like something faster than a 320D perhaps? 0-100 mph (160.9 kph): 14.0 secs
I can't imagine not having something faster.
- i hope you have a good breakdown policy also, seems modern BMWs are the new Vauxhalls for a tendency to fireball, BMW is a car make for those with generally big egos on the other hand people who are more educated and/or secure in themselves have less need to show off in a car they think are a premium brand, which is not really the case anymore - I would have a V8 Lexus over any BMWhttps://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6761995/B...
neil1jnr said:
Are you actually mentally unstable? You post a video of you overtaking an Audi being driven completely normal and go off on a rant about German motors being rubbish. You drive and old Subaru as a daily, who cares. If it's top trumps you want to play then try spanking my 13 year old diesel 5 series, it only has about 330bhp....
I can probably see the exhaust fumes from that from my window here, i bet you love looking our your rear view mirror at traffic lights - mankyeuphoricmess said:
wait till Eric hears the news that the new S5 and S4's are all gonna be diesels.
all proper sport cars are petrols (with elecric motors on many also) - Once a derv appears on this I will stop my subhttps://www.modelsupercarcollection.com/
Tigger2050 said:
Seems those claimed figures didn't stand up in actual testing.
http://www.zeperfs.com/en/fiche5517-subaru-legacy-...
e.g. the claimed figure of 0-100 kph of 6.9s turned out to be 7.9s on test.
Not only that, I rather suspect a ten year old car is going to be well short of the new car test figures.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6c_CmTtj9q4http://www.zeperfs.com/en/fiche5517-subaru-legacy-...
e.g. the claimed figure of 0-100 kph of 6.9s turned out to be 7.9s on test.
Not only that, I rather suspect a ten year old car is going to be well short of the new car test figures.
Edited by Tigger2050 on Friday 1st March 00:41
looks pretty fast to me (just need to learn how quick shift in a manual
) it will leave a 320D in its wake pretty easilyGassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff