Flemke - Is this your McLaren? (Vol 5)
Discussion
RumbleOfThunder said:
The new Le Mans wheels look good. What's to criticise?
Few things for me, but ultimately they look a bit shallow, without the interest around the spokes and rim.Worst bit though is the hub area - iirc the Le Mans edition was not a small increase in price with little change mechanically - they could at least have fitted centrelock hubs...
If they wanted to pay homage to the winning F1, they could easily have used identical wheels to the Le Mans winner. Similar to Flemke's comments about the roof scoop.
It is probably still my favourite looking 650, especially compared to the Can Am. The rear end of the LT is much better though.
Storer said:
When you get round to selling the LT will you have it repainted before selling to keep the BA colour specific to you?
No, life is too short. McLaren have told me that they have turned down customer requests to paint other cars in that colour because it is "mine" (I presume that they have done the same with other one-off colours that were conceived by other owners), which I appreciate, as that would be copying, but if I choose to sell something, it's not mine anymore.
(This reminds me of the recently conceived principle that supposedly applies when an artist has sold an artwork to a collector and, years later, the collector sells it on. According to the morons in Brussels, the collector must give part of any gains to the artist [but, please note, the artist is not responsible for any future losses]. Ludicrous.)
RumbleOfThunder said:
The new Le Mans wheels look good. What's to criticise?
For want of a better expression, everything has been squared off:
- the bend at the end of the spoke where it turns back into the rim is too sharp,
- the "Y" connecting each pair of spokes is not continuous,
- the radius of the edge where the wheel recesses from the spoke faces into the wheel centre is much too tight,
- the holes for the wheel nuts are flat on one side, and
- the rim itself has an ungainly ramp to it, which creates two levels and is disruptive to the flow of the design.
It's just a mess. All the defects that I mention were thrown in by someone who was trying - much too hard - to try to differentiate the new wheel from the predecessor. It was possible to change that old design without ending up with a horlix, but in order to achieve that one must know what one is doing and, in this case, the designer patently did not.
Seriously, this is not good enough for even an A-level design course.
z4RRSchris said:
shall we bring up the 675lt spider carbon edition?
seems like mclaren, although make good cars, haven't the faintest idea about how to build a customer base
Yes, that manoeuvre was especially crude and cynical. Inexcusable.seems like mclaren, although make good cars, haven't the faintest idea about how to build a customer base
It's been discussed at length here on this thread and also on a PH thread in the "McLaren" section.
flemke said:
(This reminds me of the recently conceived principle that supposedly applies when an artist has sold an artwork to a collector and, years later, the collector sells it on. According to the morons in Brussels, the collector must give part of any gains to the artist [but, please note, the artist is not responsible for any future losses]. Ludicrous.)
Sounds like another good reason to leave those morons to dig their own graves. I give it 10 years at most. The lunatics are now running the asylum.flemke said:
RumbleOfThunder said:
The new Le Mans wheels look good. What's to criticise?
For want of a better expression, everything has been squared off:
- the bend at the end of the spoke where it turns back into the rim is too sharp,
- the "Y" connecting each pair of spokes is not continuous,
- the radius of the edge where the wheel recesses from the spoke faces into the wheel centre is much too tight,
- the holes for the wheel nuts are flat on one side, and
- the rim itself has an ungainly ramp to it, which creates two levels and is disruptive to the flow of the design.
It's just a mess. All the defects that I mention were thrown in by someone who was trying - much too hard - to try to differentiate the new wheel from the predecessor. It was possible to change that old design without ending up with a horlix, but in order to achieve that one must know what one is doing and, in this case, the designer patently did not.
Seriously, this is not good enough for even an A-level design course.
RumbleOfThunder said:
flemke said:
RumbleOfThunder said:
The new Le Mans wheels look good. What's to criticise?
For want of a better expression, everything has been squared off:
- the bend at the end of the spoke where it turns back into the rim is too sharp,
- the "Y" connecting each pair of spokes is not continuous,
- the radius of the edge where the wheel recesses from the spoke faces into the wheel centre is much too tight,
- the holes for the wheel nuts are flat on one side, and
- the rim itself has an ungainly ramp to it, which creates two levels and is disruptive to the flow of the design.
It's just a mess. All the defects that I mention were thrown in by someone who was trying - much too hard - to try to differentiate the new wheel from the predecessor. It was possible to change that old design without ending up with a horlix, but in order to achieve that one must know what one is doing and, in this case, the designer patently did not.
Seriously, this is not good enough for even an A-level design course.
RumbleOfThunder said:
flemke said:
RumbleOfThunder said:
The new Le Mans wheels look good. What's to criticise?
For want of a better expression, everything has been squared off:
- the bend at the end of the spoke where it turns back into the rim is too sharp,
- the "Y" connecting each pair of spokes is not continuous,
- the radius of the edge where the wheel recesses from the spoke faces into the wheel centre is much too tight,
- the holes for the wheel nuts are flat on one side, and
- the rim itself has an ungainly ramp to it, which creates two levels and is disruptive to the flow of the design.
It's just a mess. All the defects that I mention were thrown in by someone who was trying - much too hard - to try to differentiate the new wheel from the predecessor. It was possible to change that old design without ending up with a horlix, but in order to achieve that one must know what one is doing and, in this case, the designer patently did not.
Seriously, this is not good enough for even an A-level design course.
Let me illustrate with an analogy, if I may. I love (some) music. It is clear to me what music I like and what music I dislike.
Regardless of what music I might happen to prefer personally, I am in no doubt that I don't know anything about music: I could not compose a piece, I could not sing or play an instrument, I could not tell you about chords or keys or tempi. All I know is what does or does not appeal to me.
Of course there are many people in the world who understand a great deal about music, as composers, arrangers, performers or aficionados. It is indisputable that they would be more qualified than I am to judge the quality of a musical composition, arrangement or performance. Their judgment will not affect what appeals to my taste, but that does not mean that they are not better equipped than I am to know whether a piece of music has been done well.
Bringing this back to the subject at hand, although I know zero about music, I happen, from study, employment, and a lifetime of designing things, to know a reasonable amount about design. Your taste and mine might differ - fair enough - but the fact is that I understand design better than the average person does, including the person who designed that wheel.
Veeayt said:
What's "horlix" then?
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=horlixLink seems not to be working, so:
Horlix: a mess, or a complete balls up of the highest degree
Taylor- "you made a right horlix of that didnt you"
"aw 5hit, I've made a right horlix of that"
Edited by flemke on Sunday 8th January 22:33
flemke said:
I don't know, Joe. ISTM that there have been some nice cars, and certainly some cars with nice elements, designed in this millennium. I don't think it's "all" been done already. Although the basic proportions are pretty much set as soon as the configuration is decided, it's often the details and subtleties that make the difference.
Designers seem to lose their nerve, wrongly believing that they have to make things different, rather than to make things better. Or perhaps it's the yoyos in the marketing departments who force them into that position. Or perhaps it's the idiots who buy this stuff....
What cars would you identify a being well designed in the 00s and 10s?Designers seem to lose their nerve, wrongly believing that they have to make things different, rather than to make things better. Or perhaps it's the yoyos in the marketing departments who force them into that position. Or perhaps it's the idiots who buy this stuff....
flemke said:
Yes, that manoeuvre was especially crude and cynical. Inexcusable.
It's been discussed at length here on this thread and also on a PH thread in the "McLaren" section.
I have a cynical theory that it was produced as a slight nod (consolation?) to those that were not invited to buy an HS. It's been discussed at length here on this thread and also on a PH thread in the "McLaren" section.
cc8s said:
What cars would you identify as being well designed in the 00s and 10s?
Off the top of my head: Murcielago, Scirocco, Brera concept, NSX (mid-'00s) V10 concept, 918, AMG GT, Huayra, i8, MP4-12C, R8 cabrio, F-Type. cc8s said:
I have a cynical theory that it was produced as a slight nod (consolation?) to those that were not invited to buy an HS.
Well...I don't know, because I never asked and never would have asked because I think that all-carbon bodywork looks puerile, but I strongly suspect that, if I had been ordering an LT spider and simply asked, "Can MSO do me a version with all-carbon bodywork at any price?", McLaren would have said, "Sure." Ultimately they may have decided to do a special run of another 25 spiders (on top of the extra five-bloody-hundred that they announced at the time that they were officially stabbing the coupe buyers in the back), but I am sure that, prior to that special run of 25, if someone had been willing to pay for a one-off carbon version, they would have been willing to build it.
People have imagined that the all-carbon P1s were something special, but the only thing that made them special was that they were a pretext for McLaren to break their word and expand the P1 production run. At any point before that, a P1 buyer could, if he or she had wanted, have ordered one in all-carbon bodywork.
As I have written here before, I am opposed to these phony "limited editions" by all car makers. I am also opposed to self-important, sniveling cry-babies who, when they find out that a limited edition is being offered, but not to them, then start whinging and contacting their dealer and the factory to piss and moan about "Do you know how important I am? Do you know how much money I have spent on your stuff? Do you know that I am best friends with...(some asshole)?"
flemke said:
cc8s said:
What cars would you identify as being well designed in the 00s and 10s?
Off the top of my head: Murcielago, Scirocco, Brera concept, NSX (mid-'00s) V10 concept, 918, AMG GT, Huayra, i8, MP4-12C, R8 cabrio, F-Type. cc8s said:
I have a cynical theory that it was produced as a slight nod (consolation?) to those that were not invited to buy an HS.
Well...I don't know, because I never asked and never would have asked because I think that all-carbon bodywork looks puerile, but I strongly suspect that, if I had been ordering an LT spider and simply asked, "Can MSO do me a version with all-carbon bodywork at any price?", McLaren would have said, "Sure." Ultimately they may have decided to do a special run of another 25 spiders (on top of the extra five-bloody-hundred that they announced at the time that they were officially stabbing the coupe buyers in the back), but I am sure that, prior to that special run of 25, if someone had been willing to pay for a one-off carbon version, they would have been willing to build it.
People have imagined that the all-carbon P1s were something special, but the only thing that made them special was that they were a pretext for McLaren to break their word and expand the P1 production run. At any point before that, a P1 buyer could, if he or she had wanted, have ordered one in all-carbon bodywork.
As I have written here before, I am opposed to these phony "limited editions" by all car makers. I am also opposed to self-important, sniveling cry-babies who, when they find out that a limited edition is being offered, but not to them, then start whinging and contacting their dealer and the factory to piss and moan about "Do you know how important I am? Do you know how much money I have spent on your stuff? Do you know that I am best friends with...(some asshole)?"
flemke said:
cc8s said:
What I am also opposed to self-important, sniveling cry-babies who, when they find out that a limited edition is being offered, but not to them, then start whinging and contacting their dealer and the factory to piss and moan about "Do you know how important I am? Do you know how much money I have spent on your stuff? Do you know that I am best friends with...(some asshole)?"
Didn't you throw your toys out of the pram in a similar way when you found out McLaren were making 500 LT Spiders on top of the Coupe? (despite still benefiting very well financially from being able to get an LT Coupe?)Davey S2 said:
Didn't you throw your toys out of the pram in a similar way when you found out McLaren were making 500 LT Spiders on top of the Coupe? (despite still benefiting very well financially from being able to get an LT Coupe?)
I'm not sure that's anything like the same. Broken promise vs you're not on the list.garyhun said:
Davey S2 said:
Didn't you throw your toys out of the pram in a similar way when you found out McLaren were making 500 LT Spiders on top of the Coupe? (despite still benefiting very well financially from being able to get an LT Coupe?)
I'm not sure that's anything like the same. Broken promise vs you're not on the list.I still find it hard to believe anyone would accept (whether told by the top brass or not) that McL wouldn't ever build a spider version of the LT. It was always going to happen. Ferrari have profited from doing this for years so it was inevitable McL would follow suit. I'm surprised they haven't made 100 or so P1 Spiders given the LaFerrari Aperta.
Davey S2 said:
It's not that dissimilar. Customer spend lots of money with the marque then feels badly let down / hard done by and then complains.
I still find it hard to believe anyone would accept (whether told by the top brass or not) that McL wouldn't ever build a spider version of the LT. It was always going to happen. Ferrari have profited from doing this for years so it was inevitable McL would follow suit. I'm surprised they haven't made 100 or so P1 Spiders given the LaFerrari Aperta.
It's not quite the same is it? Being in effect lied to vs not being able get said car as your dealer doesn't think you're special enough. I still find it hard to believe anyone would accept (whether told by the top brass or not) that McL wouldn't ever build a spider version of the LT. It was always going to happen. Ferrari have profited from doing this for years so it was inevitable McL would follow suit. I'm surprised they haven't made 100 or so P1 Spiders given the LaFerrari Aperta.
Davey S2 said:
flemke said:
What I am also opposed to self-important, sniveling cry-babies who, when they find out that a limited edition is being offered, but not to them, then start whinging and contacting their dealer and the factory to piss and moan about "Do you know how important I am? Do you know how much money I have spent on your stuff? Do you know that I am best friends with...(some asshole)?"
Didn't you throw your toys out of the pram in a similar way when you found out McLaren were making 500 LT Spiders on top of the Coupe? (despite still benefiting very well financially from being able to get an LT Coupe?)...Customer spend lots of money with the marque then feels badly let down / hard done by and then complains.
I still find it hard to believe anyone would accept (whether told by the top brass or not) that McL wouldn't ever build a spider version of the LT. It was always going to happen. Ferrari have profited from doing this for years so it was inevitable McL would follow suit. I'm surprised they haven't made 100 or so P1 Spiders given the LaFerrari Aperta.
- I don't believe that I benefited financially from the experience: certainly not in the relative and probably not in the absolute either.
- The LT coupe was available to any member of the public, not only to favoured customers or people on the inside.
- The issue with the broken limit was not a question of how many they made overall, but rather that the price they charged was commensurate with a build-run of only 500. I would have preferred it if they had said, "We're going to build to demand, and the base price will be (say) £225k, or 15% above the 650S." The problem was that they priced it in line with a relatively small build-run, and persuaded 500 people to pay that price (£260k base) in part specifically because of the promise of a relatively small build-run.
As others above have said, we were lied to, and the reason that we were lied to was that the company knew both that it would be in their interests to lie and that, if they did not lie, at least some of the coupe buyers would not participate, at least not at £260k.
- Lying is a moral issue.
In contrast, artificially limiting how many units of something to make and then, for whatever reasons you might have, composing a priority list of to whom you will offer those units is a private business decision.
It might be an unwise business decision (as I have said, it is something that I dislike and wish would not happen, although sometimes I have benefited and other times I have lost out from the existence of "limited editions"), but it is not a moral issue.
I guess I am naive, but when the CEO of a company with which I have had a personal relationship for 15 years puts in writing, unambiguously, that his company is not going to do something, I expect the company to keep its word. That expectation of integrity is one of the key reasons why I patronise McLaren and I boycott Ferrari, notwithstanding that Ferrari have made some fabulous cars.
Now that McLaren have form in this area, I know to prepare for the worst. Two years ago when they began to take orders for the LT coupe, they did not have that form, and I trusted them.
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