What’s the future hold for us petrol heads?
Discussion
RobM77 said:
I hope that like vinyl, enthusiasts will be catered for and I can keep an old racing car like my Dad has his model steam engines. There is the chance ICE will be outlawed completely though.The other hope lies in a car company that care about driver enjoyment producing an affordable EV that's good to drive. There's no reason why an EV can't be as good or even better to drive than an ICE car, a car company just has to want to develop and tune it in the right way.
It's a bit depressing so good to enjoy now. I am keeping my ICE cars and will buy one more. After that, I expect an EV is inevitable . Drove a Taycan the other day and have driven the iPace, the quick Tesla, the Mitsu iEV , so a big variety. Taycan and iPace were pretty good actually. For me, I drive very long distances quite often and charging stations are an issue. Ever if empty its still 20 minutes or more, plus pulling in and out.Further, going to remote areas is a challenge, so my likely EV will be something quite modes for in-town use. Driving in the city. is a chore anyway and does not require a performance car.
otolith said:
RobM77 said:
This is my worry with EVs. What an enthusiast like you or I want in a car is very different to what Joe Public wants. I'm not saying one is better than the other, they're just different. It's clear from driving most modern cars that most people don't want the bother of steering feel, a brake you need to push to work (which allows us the variability to use the brake to control the car), or feeling from the road. Some cars, like your Clio, some BMWs, some of the small Fords etc, have clung on to this type of car, but they're dying out in favour of tall wobbly cars like the Meriva or Kuga. This is my main worry about EVs: given a clean sheet of paper, car manufacturers will design what most people want: a wobbly underdamped and numb experience. So far, the only nod to people like us from EVs is performance, which personally doesn't interest me. I don't care if a car does 0-100 in 5 seconds, I'd still rather drive your Clio.
Lotus are making one more ICE model, then all electric. We'll see what their engineers can do with it.RobM77 said:
Shrimpvende said:
I bought a Clio Trophy (small accident on CollectingCars...) a couple of weeks ago and every time I drive it I can't help but think 'how did we go so wrong'. A good mate has a brand new Fiesta ST which is a brilliant little car, but it's nowhere near as fun as the Clio.
This is my worry with EVs. What an enthusiast like you or I want in a car is very different to what Joe Public wants. I'm not saying one is better than the other, they're just different. It's clear from driving most modern cars that most people don't want the bother of steering feel, a brake you need to push to work (which allows us the variability to use the brake to control the car), or feeling from the road. Some cars, like your Clio, some BMWs, some of the small Fords etc, have clung on to this type of car, but they're dying out in favour of tall wobbly cars like the Meriva or Kuga. This is my main worry about EVs: given a clean sheet of paper, car manufacturers will design what most people want: a wobbly underdamped and numb experience. So far, the only nod to people like us from EVs is performance, which personally doesn't interest me. I don't care if a car does 0-100 in 5 seconds, I'd still rather drive your Clio.Frankly regardless of ICE, BEV, Hybrid or whatever car manufacturers have painted themselves into a corner, or perhaps allowed themselves to be put into a corner, where too much of the output is vehivles that are 500 kgs plus too heavy, too large, roll centre fsr too high, largely devoid of any feel, and as mentioned above, only nod to any aspect away from a dreary drudge is a massive shove in the back, which after a few seconds is licence threatening illegal.
Uggers said:
RobM77 said:
All well and good if you've got £80k to spend on a two seater...
Vauxhall have created a shopping trolley for the poorer masses. The E-Corsa. Weighs only 1450kg, range of 200 mile. Prices start at only £27500 after the
Where do I sign
Wonder if the hefty 1450kg includes the poorer mass.
Uggers said:
Vauxhall have created a shopping trolley for the poorer masses. The E-Corsa.
Weighs only 1450kg, range of 200 mile. Prices start at only £27500 after the tax payer subsidised government grant
Where do I sign
How much were the early cars compared to buying a horse, or steam engine? What limitations did they have around their use? Weighs only 1450kg, range of 200 mile. Prices start at only £27500 after the
Where do I sign
You are being very thick, or deliberately obtuse, if you cannot see that the current range of EV's are early stage models. You are being equally thick if you cannot see that the internal combustion engine is not long for this world as the primary means of automotive power, despite the fact that current alternatives are not perfect.
The G-Whizz was launched in 2001 with a 50 mile range and 17hp maximum, driven by lead acid batteries.
Even the lowest spec Tesla Model 3 will do 220 miles and has 280hp available. It will charge from nothing to 130 miles in 30 mins.
Where do you think things will be in 20 years time?
Condi said:
How much were the early cars compared to buying a horse, or steam engine? What limitations did they have around their use?
You are being very thick, or deliberately obtuse, if you cannot see that the current range of EV's are early stage models. You are being equally thick if you cannot see that the internal combustion engine is not long for this world as the primary means of automotive power, despite the fact that current alternatives are not perfect.
The G-Whizz was launched in 2001 with a 50 mile range and 17hp maximum, driven by lead acid batteries.
Even the lowest spec Tesla Model 3 will do 220 miles and has 280hp available. It will charge from nothing to 130 miles in 30 mins.
Where do you think things will be in 20 years time?
Well based on that rather obtuse comparison I expect nothing short of spaceships costing £5k for one and all You are being very thick, or deliberately obtuse, if you cannot see that the current range of EV's are early stage models. You are being equally thick if you cannot see that the internal combustion engine is not long for this world as the primary means of automotive power, despite the fact that current alternatives are not perfect.
The G-Whizz was launched in 2001 with a 50 mile range and 17hp maximum, driven by lead acid batteries.
Even the lowest spec Tesla Model 3 will do 220 miles and has 280hp available. It will charge from nothing to 130 miles in 30 mins.
Where do you think things will be in 20 years time?
RobM77 said:
otolith said:
RobM77 said:
This is my worry with EVs. What an enthusiast like you or I want in a car is very different to what Joe Public wants. I'm not saying one is better than the other, they're just different. It's clear from driving most modern cars that most people don't want the bother of steering feel, a brake you need to push to work (which allows us the variability to use the brake to control the car), or feeling from the road. Some cars, like your Clio, some BMWs, some of the small Fords etc, have clung on to this type of car, but they're dying out in favour of tall wobbly cars like the Meriva or Kuga. This is my main worry about EVs: given a clean sheet of paper, car manufacturers will design what most people want: a wobbly underdamped and numb experience. So far, the only nod to people like us from EVs is performance, which personally doesn't interest me. I don't care if a car does 0-100 in 5 seconds, I'd still rather drive your Clio.
Lotus are making one more ICE model, then all electric. We'll see what their engineers can do with it.Used EV cars now
Year Price Range
2010 Leaf 6000 80
2010 MiEV 6000 80
2010 Peugeot Ion 6000 60
2014 Tesla 32000 250?
2014 I3 15000 100?
Now the above is when they first come out and they are improving KWH and range wise, but there are only a little over 1,000 pure EV's registered 2017 or older on autotrader. Ignoring the g-wiz they start @ £5K. Now 2018-2020 numbers are higher and we start to see some SUV's etc but the prices are higher and will filter down higher as they age.
6 year old used EV's are not going to 'appear' good value (to the used car buyer) or affordable for many years yet, and the volumes aren't there even if people wanted them. It's going to take a big mindset shift from the now regime of "Low purchase prices high running costs" to "high purchase price low running costs" , then you have the worry of government duties increasing. Increased EV sales means more money for technology and mining companies, and car manufacturers, but less in the cars life cycle for the government..........you just can't imagine that not being changed and so rnning costs may go up and so the used EV's running costs get higher in the next 5-10 years.
It's hard to see EV sheds (well certainly at shed prices) being around anytime soon, a 2010 Leaf at 6K a 2010 Micra at sub £2K. There are no choices for a family estate or even a really roomy hatch? The filtering down I can see taking many years.
ICE cars are just too cheap at present and the early EV's compromised in size and often usable range, away from new car/main dealer used car buying they are going to be a hard sell.
Year Price Range
2010 Leaf 6000 80
2010 MiEV 6000 80
2010 Peugeot Ion 6000 60
2014 Tesla 32000 250?
2014 I3 15000 100?
Now the above is when they first come out and they are improving KWH and range wise, but there are only a little over 1,000 pure EV's registered 2017 or older on autotrader. Ignoring the g-wiz they start @ £5K. Now 2018-2020 numbers are higher and we start to see some SUV's etc but the prices are higher and will filter down higher as they age.
6 year old used EV's are not going to 'appear' good value (to the used car buyer) or affordable for many years yet, and the volumes aren't there even if people wanted them. It's going to take a big mindset shift from the now regime of "Low purchase prices high running costs" to "high purchase price low running costs" , then you have the worry of government duties increasing. Increased EV sales means more money for technology and mining companies, and car manufacturers, but less in the cars life cycle for the government..........you just can't imagine that not being changed and so rnning costs may go up and so the used EV's running costs get higher in the next 5-10 years.
It's hard to see EV sheds (well certainly at shed prices) being around anytime soon, a 2010 Leaf at 6K a 2010 Micra at sub £2K. There are no choices for a family estate or even a really roomy hatch? The filtering down I can see taking many years.
ICE cars are just too cheap at present and the early EV's compromised in size and often usable range, away from new car/main dealer used car buying they are going to be a hard sell.
It will take time to filter through - the end of the sale of new petrol and diesel cars will happen a long time before the number on the road dwindles to next to nothing. If we stop selling them in 2035, I reckon they'll still be widely in use for another 10 or 15 years, even if the proportion of EVs comes to dominate a little way pre-2035
Shrimpvende said:
I reckon now is the swansong for supercars as we know them. I can't see any more big NA engines coming out of Maranello, MHEV adds weight and some manufacturers are just plain giving up. There's no RS Clio anymore, no new Focus RS - both because of the fleet emissions Bulls**t. Toyota should be applauded for the GR Yaris, a proper enthusiast's hot hatch with some decent tech and a powerful turbo'd engine, although again probably amongst the very last of a dying breed. As WRC is going hybrid in 2022 they won't need a similar homologation model again, so this probably is it - I'm still tempted to try and get one if there's any still available.
WRC hasn't required homologation specials since 1997, when the Group A rules were replaced by WRC rules. From 1997 they allowed the boggo standard production shell to have additions without a production version, so you could have a FWD NA only car made into an AWD Turbo cooking monster WRC car. That killed off the need for the homologation special Impreza and Lancer, you only needed those if you wanted to compete in the lower class Group N. Even that category is gone with the lower class cars based around kits. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Rally_CarUggers said:
Vauxhall have created a shopping trolley for the poorer masses. The E-Corsa.
Weighs only 1450kg, range of 200 mile. Prices start at only £27500 after the tax payer subsidised government grant
Where do I sign
Only 1450Kg! That's heavier than my turbo nutter bWeighs only 1450kg, range of 200 mile. Prices start at only £27500 after the
Where do I sign
d 500BHP AWD decent sized saloon car.Uggers said:
Vauxhall have created a shopping trolley for the poorer masses. The E-Corsa.
Weighs only 1450kg, range of 200 mile. Prices start at only £27500 after the tax payer subsidised government grant
Where do I sign
Interesting thing on pricing. At this point an EV like that wont cost significantly more to make than the ICE version. Weighs only 1450kg, range of 200 mile. Prices start at only £27500 after the
Where do I sign
But if you have limited supply/production capacity and that 5-10% of your product is substantially better for your customers than the other 90-95% of your products what do you do? Esp when you need to sell that 90% of product to make money.
Condi said:
Indeed, but everyone who buys an EV, or every fund manager who buys Tesla debt, or any car company debt, is speeding up that transition.
My brother just swapped his company Merc C class for a Tesla. He liked the Merc, but the Tesla is saving £150 a month or so in tax and comes with lower fuel cost, while he still gets paid the same per mile. Over a year he'll probably be £2.5k better off, if not more. This is what will drive the change, and the investment that creates will speed the delivery of a car without the issues which stop people buying one now.
Given the purchase price vs his annual "saving" is it any wonder that everyone other than business users or owners is avoiding them?My brother just swapped his company Merc C class for a Tesla. He liked the Merc, but the Tesla is saving £150 a month or so in tax and comes with lower fuel cost, while he still gets paid the same per mile. Over a year he'll probably be £2.5k better off, if not more. This is what will drive the change, and the investment that creates will speed the delivery of a car without the issues which stop people buying one now.
TX.
Max_Torque said:
You have that completely about face i'm afraid.
It's hugely more complex to repair an ICE, simply because of all the complex systems it requires in order to work, which thanks to modern emissions and economy laws are getting more complex by the day.
To change the battery in an ev takes 1 socket, and a bucket (for the battery coolant). Typically the battery pack is out and on the floor in about 20 min from starting. To get the battery out you need to:
1) disconnect and drain the coolant(two hoses)
2) disconnect the DC cable (1 connector, either a latch type needing no tools, or needing a 12mm socket to remove)
3) the low voltage connector (hand removes after clicking the latch)
4) unbolt it and lower.
Have a go getting the engine or gearbox out of a modern car and see how you get on. Hours, and hours, and hours of complex work.
And rebuilding an ICE is seldom worthwhile, because it wears as a unit. By the time the rings are worn say, then the cam, bearings, lifters, valves, valve springs, flywheel, water pump, oil pump, lots of parts are also worn. Very few "rebuilt" engines go on for as long as the original, because it is complex, expensive and time consuming to totally a properly rebuild such a complex mechanical device. You also need a host of precision machinery, lathes, mills, valve grinders, journal grinders, lapping machines and the like.
For an EV battery, not only will the BMW and a £50 scan tool tell you both exactly how "worn" the battery is, it will highlight explicitly the excessively aged or failed module or cell. Take the lid of the battery (only requires a socket set) disconnect the mid string safety link (using HV gloves that cost just £20) and then remove the failed module/cell and replace, again, a couple of bolts is all that is required. Before you put it back in the car, plug the scan tool back into the BMS and it'll tell you if you've done the job properly before it goes back in (unlike for a "dumb" ICE where you put in your "yeah mate, that engine has had a very good rebuild, it's pukka mate, it'll do another million miles, engine only to find it smokes more than a typical eastenders house wife....)
And another 40 min later and the battery is back in, bleed and connected and you're ready to go!
Today, with limited demand and no pool of "spares" a battery is expensive to repair, but in a few years as more and more good s/h modules and cells become available from write-offs and EOL vehicles, and in fact new from 3rd party battery suppliers as cell prices continue to tumble, you'll be able to "battery refresh" an old EV, and thanks to the limited number of moving parts in the powertrain, it'll be practically as good as new, unlike your rebuild ICE where the rest of the powertrain is still as baggy as, well, bagpuss....... :-)
All this amazing tech and advances just "a few years away", people been saying that for 10-20 years though.It's hugely more complex to repair an ICE, simply because of all the complex systems it requires in order to work, which thanks to modern emissions and economy laws are getting more complex by the day.
To change the battery in an ev takes 1 socket, and a bucket (for the battery coolant). Typically the battery pack is out and on the floor in about 20 min from starting. To get the battery out you need to:
1) disconnect and drain the coolant(two hoses)
2) disconnect the DC cable (1 connector, either a latch type needing no tools, or needing a 12mm socket to remove)
3) the low voltage connector (hand removes after clicking the latch)
4) unbolt it and lower.
Have a go getting the engine or gearbox out of a modern car and see how you get on. Hours, and hours, and hours of complex work.
And rebuilding an ICE is seldom worthwhile, because it wears as a unit. By the time the rings are worn say, then the cam, bearings, lifters, valves, valve springs, flywheel, water pump, oil pump, lots of parts are also worn. Very few "rebuilt" engines go on for as long as the original, because it is complex, expensive and time consuming to totally a properly rebuild such a complex mechanical device. You also need a host of precision machinery, lathes, mills, valve grinders, journal grinders, lapping machines and the like.
For an EV battery, not only will the BMW and a £50 scan tool tell you both exactly how "worn" the battery is, it will highlight explicitly the excessively aged or failed module or cell. Take the lid of the battery (only requires a socket set) disconnect the mid string safety link (using HV gloves that cost just £20) and then remove the failed module/cell and replace, again, a couple of bolts is all that is required. Before you put it back in the car, plug the scan tool back into the BMS and it'll tell you if you've done the job properly before it goes back in (unlike for a "dumb" ICE where you put in your "yeah mate, that engine has had a very good rebuild, it's pukka mate, it'll do another million miles, engine only to find it smokes more than a typical eastenders house wife....)
And another 40 min later and the battery is back in, bleed and connected and you're ready to go!
Today, with limited demand and no pool of "spares" a battery is expensive to repair, but in a few years as more and more good s/h modules and cells become available from write-offs and EOL vehicles, and in fact new from 3rd party battery suppliers as cell prices continue to tumble, you'll be able to "battery refresh" an old EV, and thanks to the limited number of moving parts in the powertrain, it'll be practically as good as new, unlike your rebuild ICE where the rest of the powertrain is still as baggy as, well, bagpuss....... :-)
TX.
RobM77 said:
Random off topic question, but does anyone know where Hydrogen fuel cell tech is right now? It was touted as the next greatest thing years ago. From what I remember, H2 combines with O2, generating electricity and the by product is simply H2O - water.
its fundamentally in the garbage bin for passenger cars.RobDickinson said:
RobM77 said:
Random off topic question, but does anyone know where Hydrogen fuel cell tech is right now? It was touted as the next greatest thing years ago. From what I remember, H2 combines with O2, generating electricity and the by product is simply H2O - water.
its fundamentally in the garbage bin for passenger cars.Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff