Flemke - Is this your McLaren? (Vol 5)
Discussion
Peloton25 said:
The car on the right would be GTR 19R and was acquired by the now previous owner in very late 2010 through a deal that took a very unfortunate turn due to a title dispute, the story of which is relayed on this litigators website and then in far greater detail in the attached Word document outlining the final judgement at the bottom of the page:
http://www.wilmotslitigation.co.uk/blog/2013/12/23...
It took several years for those legal issues to be settled and once they were the restoration from the LARK livery the car had previously worn while in the USA to its original Presentation Livery we see here was completed.
The car on the left is 27R, and has some of ts own stories to tell as well.
Thankfully all of that is behind them both and hopefully they will be off to new collectors who will find ways to put them to good use.
>8^)
ER
A most fascinating story, thanks for sharing.http://www.wilmotslitigation.co.uk/blog/2013/12/23...
It took several years for those legal issues to be settled and once they were the restoration from the LARK livery the car had previously worn while in the USA to its original Presentation Livery we see here was completed.
The car on the left is 27R, and has some of ts own stories to tell as well.
Thankfully all of that is behind them both and hopefully they will be off to new collectors who will find ways to put them to good use.
>8^)
ER
Interesting to read in para 77 that Dean evidenced David Clark as trying to side-step Macari in the sale!
petrolburners said:
Peloton25 said:
The car on the right would be GTR 19R and was acquired by the now previous owner in very late 2010 through a deal that took a very unfortunate turn due to a title dispute, the story of which is relayed on this litigators website and then in far greater detail in the attached Word document outlining the final judgement at the bottom of the page:
http://www.wilmotslitigation.co.uk/blog/2013/12/23...
It took several years for those legal issues to be settled and once they were the restoration from the LARK livery the car had previously worn while in the USA to its original Presentation Livery we see here was completed.
The car on the left is 27R, and has some of ts own stories to tell as well.
Thankfully all of that is behind them both and hopefully they will be off to new collectors who will find ways to put them to good use.
>8^)
ER
A most fascinating story, thanks for sharing.http://www.wilmotslitigation.co.uk/blog/2013/12/23...
It took several years for those legal issues to be settled and once they were the restoration from the LARK livery the car had previously worn while in the USA to its original Presentation Livery we see here was completed.
The car on the left is 27R, and has some of ts own stories to tell as well.
Thankfully all of that is behind them both and hopefully they will be off to new collectors who will find ways to put them to good use.
>8^)
ER
Interesting to read in para 77 that Dean evidenced David Clark as trying to side-step Macari in the sale!
Also interesting to see that Joe Macari appears to have made £250k profit risklessly on the transaction. Oh, wait - he did have to transport the car to and from his showroom, so make that £249k profit risklessly.
flemke said:
greygoose said:
I saw my first P1 close up the other day, a McLaren test car and in my (admittedly amateurish) view it was a bit of a let down in comparison to the F1 I had seen previously. The driver said that an F1 had been sold by McLaren recently for £22 million, does anyone know if this is true?
As of a couple of weeks ago there were a couple of cars up for sale that might have fit that description; I am not aware that either has sold yet.The photo was from Simon Kidston who presumably brokered the deal so I assume it was genuine.
No doubt Peleton can let us have some further details
flemke said:
Good spot. Shocking - absolutely shocking - that David Clark would try to get his nose in the trough! Who could have expected that?
I didn't expect it, but I wasn't surprised by it either.flemke said:
Also interesting to see that Joe Macari appears to have made £250k profit risklessly on the transaction. Oh, wait - he did have to transport the car to and from his showroom, so make that £249k profit risklessly.
I think that's slightly unfair on Joe!'Risklessly' profiting would be passing the details of Mr A to Mr B and merely billing Mr B £250k for the introduction with no further involvement or liability on how things proceed.
Purchasing goods off Mr A and then selling them to Mr B warranted does involve a risk, as the judgement clearly highlights. To have a buyer lined up before committing to a purchase isn't 'riskless' in my eyes, it's just being a good dealer.
I believe there's even a snippet that suggests Joe gave the purchase the "go ahead" the night before actually receiving a decision from the buyer.
Davey S2 said:
flemke said:
greygoose said:
I saw my first P1 close up the other day, a McLaren test car and in my (admittedly amateurish) view it was a bit of a let down in comparison to the F1 I had seen previously. The driver said that an F1 had been sold by McLaren recently for £22 million, does anyone know if this is true?
As of a couple of weeks ago there were a couple of cars up for sale that might have fit that description; I am not aware that either has sold yet.The photo was from Simon Kidston who presumably brokered the deal so I assume it was genuine.
No doubt Peleton can let us have some further details
petrolburners said:
flemke said:
Good spot. Shocking - absolutely shocking - that David Clark would try to get his nose in the trough! Who could have expected that?
I didn't expect it, but I wasn't surprised by it either.flemke said:
Also interesting to see that Joe Macari appears to have made £250k profit risklessly on the transaction. Oh, wait - he did have to transport the car to and from his showroom, so make that £249k profit risklessly.
I think that's slightly unfair on Joe!'Risklessly' profiting would be passing the details of Mr A to Mr B and merely billing Mr B £250k for the introduction with no further involvement or liability on how things proceed.
Purchasing goods off Mr A and then selling them to Mr B warranted does involve a risk, as the judgement clearly highlights. To have a buyer lined up before committing to a purchase isn't 'riskless' in my eyes, it's just being a good dealer.
I believe there's even a snippet that suggests Joe gave the purchase the "go ahead" the night before actually receiving a decision from the buyer.
Re Joe Macari, I have nothing against the man. I was just making an observation.
The way that I read the court judgment, however, the transaction was indeed riskless to him:
Mr Justice Cooke said:
Mr Edwards wanted £1 million but Mr Macari offered £950,000 and that figure was agreed in principle, with Mr Macari agreeing to clear the bond (i.e. to pay import duty on the car), subject to inspection and subject to on-sale.
"Subject to on-sale" means, in my book, that his bid of £950k would be binding only if he, Joe, found someone to buy the car off him. Joe appears to have been given the car in hand at that price, with the option to come back to Edwards and say "Okay, I'm having it". Yes, there would have been a bit of counter-party risk, but no market risk. On that basis, a "fee" in excess of 25% is, shall we say, on the high side.flemke said:
I was being sarcastic about David Clark. I would have expected that from him.
Re Joe Macari, I have nothing against the man. I was just making an observation.
The way that I read the court judgment, however, the transaction was indeed riskless to him:
I had noted your sarcasm Re Joe Macari, I have nothing against the man. I was just making an observation.
The way that I read the court judgment, however, the transaction was indeed riskless to him:
Mr Justice Cooke said:
Mr Edwards wanted £1 million but Mr Macari offered £950,000 and that figure was agreed in principle, with Mr Macari agreeing to clear the bond (i.e. to pay import duty on the car), subject to inspection and subject to on-sale.
"Subject to on-sale" means, in my book, that his bid of £950k would be binding only if he, Joe, found someone to buy the car off him. Joe appears to have been given the car in hand at that price, with the option to come back to Edwards and say "Okay, I'm having it". Yes, there would have been a bit of counter-party risk, but no market risk. On that basis, a "fee" in excess of 25% is, shall we say, on the high side.But, I had missed the "subject to on-sale" term which does indeed make it far less of a risk than it first appears.
Off topic, I do wonder whether dealers like Joe could have turned a better ROI simply by sitting on one of these rather than compounding the 10-25% mark-ups over the years. Sure, there's no realised profit until the thing is sold, but equally with the way prices have gone it seems an awful lot less stress, work, overheads and margin VAT to just own the thing rather than be in the business of dealing them
It seems David Clark knows exactly what he is doing!
ukaskew said:
Is that an original rear spoiler on the yellow one? Not seen it on any GTR before.
As flemke's photo of 28R depicts, that is not a unique rear wing. This was essentially a high downforce rear wing used at tracks where straight line speed wasn't a paramount concern. Here's an image of the FINA cars wearing an even more exaggerated version of this at the Nurburgring event in 1997 with end plates fixed to the rear bodywork and extending even further down.
>8^)
ER
flemke said:
Davey S2 said:
flemke said:
greygoose said:
I saw my first P1 close up the other day, a McLaren test car and in my (admittedly amateurish) view it was a bit of a let down in comparison to the F1 I had seen previously. The driver said that an F1 had been sold by McLaren recently for £22 million, does anyone know if this is true?
As of a couple of weeks ago there were a couple of cars up for sale that might have fit that description; I am not aware that either has sold yet.The photo was from Simon Kidston who presumably brokered the deal so I assume it was genuine.
No doubt Peleton can let us have some further details
Do you say that because it's worth less or more? Or because the previous owner wasn't interested in selling.
It seems there are a few specialist brokers with experience of selling these. Macari, Lanzante, Kidston, HartleyJr, Clark and obviously McLaren themselves.
Hypothetically, if you "had" to sell yours. Who would you choose from the list and why, and if you're feeling combative, who wouldn't you choose.
Kidston's site is great btw.
http://www.kidston.com/kidston-movie-item/64/Clash...
Little Vid worth watching
While I think there are some great choices on your list Rich, there are certainly other agents in the business who have traded several F1s over the years with far less fanfare - in fact that is how the majority of these cars change hands.
If I were shopping for one I'd certainly reach out to a few of the ones you mention, but a number of others could be trusted to get the job done as well. Counterpoint to that is there are a very large number of people who attempt to get involved in these transactions that should be avoided completely.
>8^)
ER
If I were shopping for one I'd certainly reach out to a few of the ones you mention, but a number of others could be trusted to get the job done as well. Counterpoint to that is there are a very large number of people who attempt to get involved in these transactions that should be avoided completely.
>8^)
ER
Edited by Peloton25 on Wednesday 5th April 21:54
Davey S2 said:
Pics on Instagram a week or so ago showing customer collection of car number 053.
The photo was from Simon Kidston who presumably brokered the deal so I assume it was genuine.
No doubt Peleton can let us have some further details
Getting back into this - indeed that was chassis 053 being collected by the new owner at MTC in a deal that it would appear Simon was heavily involved in. It should be noted the representative for the seller in this case was MSO Heritage directly. This was an F1 that had effectively been in the market for at least two years and represented by a number of other parties, with the owner seeking a price that was very ambitious all along the way. The car was noteworthy for being fully original, in a unique but perhaps not extremely desirable spec, and with very low mileage - just 1,200 KMs from new. In those respects a higher than average price should be warranted, but as stated it went a long time without being sold compared to other examples. In the end it seem the seller got the number he was looking for - he just had to wait for the market to catch up. The photo was from Simon Kidston who presumably brokered the deal so I assume it was genuine.
No doubt Peleton can let us have some further details
>8^)
ER
Rich_W said:
flemke said:
Davey S2 said:
flemke said:
greygoose said:
I saw my first P1 close up the other day, a McLaren test car and in my (admittedly amateurish) view it was a bit of a let down in comparison to the F1 I had seen previously. The driver said that an F1 had been sold by McLaren recently for £22 million, does anyone know if this is true?
As of a couple of weeks ago there were a couple of cars up for sale that might have fit that description; I am not aware that either has sold yet.The photo was from Simon Kidston who presumably brokered the deal so I assume it was genuine.
No doubt Peleton can let us have some further details
Do you say that because it's worth less or more? Or because the previous owner wasn't interested in selling.
It seems there are a few specialist brokers with experience of selling these. Macari, Lanzante, Kidston, HartleyJr, Clark and obviously McLaren themselves.
Hypothetically, if you "had" to sell yours. Who would you choose from the list and why, and if you're feeling combative, who wouldn't you choose.
Kidston's site is great btw.
http://www.kidston.com/kidston-movie-item/64/Clash...
Little Vid worth watching
Wrt dealers, I have complete confidence in MSO (McLaren themselves), and I have heard good things about Kidston. One or two of the other people you mention I would not touch with the longest bargepole ever made.
Mr F.... engines.
I can imagine you have had every conceivable format of engine (maybe not W12 or 16), so I was wondering what cylinder layout you preferred?
As a bonus question - are the different iterations of the V8 in your new McLarens different enough to distinguish between them, or do they start to blur?
I can imagine you have had every conceivable format of engine (maybe not W12 or 16), so I was wondering what cylinder layout you preferred?
As a bonus question - are the different iterations of the V8 in your new McLarens different enough to distinguish between them, or do they start to blur?
Don1 said:
Mr F.... engines.
I can imagine you have had every conceivable format of engine (maybe not W12 or 16), so I was wondering what cylinder layout you preferred?
As a bonus question - are the different iterations of the V8 in your new McLarens different enough to distinguish between them, or do they start to blur?
I'm a V12 man. For me the perfect sports car would have a small-ish V12 (say 4L) and weight 1000 kg.I can imagine you have had every conceivable format of engine (maybe not W12 or 16), so I was wondering what cylinder layout you preferred?
As a bonus question - are the different iterations of the V8 in your new McLarens different enough to distinguish between them, or do they start to blur?
Interesting Vid here about a chap at Romans who sourced an F1 for a big collection and comments how many rumours there are about cars for sale which turn out to be rubbish.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkt8yUrhpl4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkt8yUrhpl4
Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff