6 People Hit by 458 Scud This Morning in Battersea
Discussion
WestyCarl said:
Modern stability systems (not just t/c) are very very good. My BMW 5 (yes, not a sports car 
) is all but impossible to spin. Even provoking it by going far to fast into a slippery island, aggressively turning in and either stamping or coming off the throttle produces nothing but a tightening of the line.
However regardless of this, unless the car had a failure he was driving far to fast or aggressively for the conditions.
Can I just say the one in the mazda MX-5 is rubbish. Balance the power around the roundabout and it drops power if it thinks you're pushing it, the applies it again, completely unsettles the car) is all but impossible to spin. Even provoking it by going far to fast into a slippery island, aggressively turning in and either stamping or coming off the throttle produces nothing but a tightening of the line. However regardless of this, unless the car had a failure he was driving far to fast or aggressively for the conditions.
F355spider said:
Just after taking delivery at the dealers I believe Rob. There was a long thread on PH of a guy looking for his first Caterham. Spent months looking for it and asking advice and then found a really nice R300 which he smashed up within an hour of collecting it. He wasn't a boy racer either just got caught out.
No excuse for that in a 30 zone in a built up area though.
I personally am not that bothered on how TC/ESP/PCM works for different people.
I get they are systems designed to help and assist. However they are just Walter Rhol in a chip, which means angles, conditions, drivers all screw them up at some point.
The talk of your own moments, in different cars in different places should be in its own thread talking about the various abilities of ESP with completely different drivers.
I genuinely have no idea why people are talking about a moment 'once' or that they drive to the point the ESP kicks in and they are surprised.
The later bothers me more as this is a drivers forum :/
I get they are systems designed to help and assist. However they are just Walter Rhol in a chip, which means angles, conditions, drivers all screw them up at some point.
The talk of your own moments, in different cars in different places should be in its own thread talking about the various abilities of ESP with completely different drivers.
I genuinely have no idea why people are talking about a moment 'once' or that they drive to the point the ESP kicks in and they are surprised.
The later bothers me more as this is a drivers forum :/
Would be nice to hear an update on the poor sods that got catapulted off the bonnet of the fez.
I'm the meantime, all the discussion of driver assistance reminds me of something I'll paraphrase from my old E60 5 series BMW manual (as it is long gone).
"Please note that although our engineers are highly skilled, they are not able to alter the laws of physics and therefore you should not rely wholly on the electronic stability programmes as a substitute for..."
I'm sure someone can dig out the exact passage but it is a fair point that people would do well to remember when jumping in whatever they're driving and assuming all they'll need to do are replace the rear discs earlier than normal.
I'm the meantime, all the discussion of driver assistance reminds me of something I'll paraphrase from my old E60 5 series BMW manual (as it is long gone).
"Please note that although our engineers are highly skilled, they are not able to alter the laws of physics and therefore you should not rely wholly on the electronic stability programmes as a substitute for..."
I'm sure someone can dig out the exact passage but it is a fair point that people would do well to remember when jumping in whatever they're driving and assuming all they'll need to do are replace the rear discs earlier than normal.
glencooley said:
I genuinely have no idea why people are talking about a moment 'once' or that they drive to the point the ESP kicks in and they are surprised.
The later bothers me more as this is a drivers forum :/
I think you've missed the point (that has been made many times). The TC/SC discussion is not about a driver's ability or about the surprise that it kicks in.The later bothers me more as this is a drivers forum :/
The point is that it's potentially a huge mistake to assume it will catch you. And just because it did in a one car really does not mean it will in another. Please don't take offense but to dismiss the point shows that there is a huge difference in understanding about how these systems are configured by different manufacturers and what they will and will not do.
Anyway - it has become a bit of a thread hijack again for which I apologize. So I'll wish the injured well and butt out.
Hungrymc said:
I think you've missed the point (that has been made many times). The TC/SC discussion is not about a driver's ability or about the surprise that it kicks in.
The point is that it's potentially a huge mistake to assume it will catch you. And just because it did in a one car really does not mean it will in another. Please don't take offense but to dismiss the point shows that there is a huge difference in understanding about how these systems are configured by different manufacturers and what they will and will not do.
Anyway - it has become a bit of a thread hijack again for which I apologize. So I'll wish the injured well and butt out.
I have not missed the point :/ The point is that it's potentially a huge mistake to assume it will catch you. And just because it did in a one car really does not mean it will in another. Please don't take offense but to dismiss the point shows that there is a huge difference in understanding about how these systems are configured by different manufacturers and what they will and will not do.
Anyway - it has become a bit of a thread hijack again for which I apologize. So I'll wish the injured well and butt out.
The fact is if you drive, you may crash. Electronic aids or not it may happen.
The choice we all have is about where that will most likely happen.
It's a huge mistake to drive any car in a way that could hurt anyone other than yourself.
And so a bit of shared experience that is warning people of the fact that these systems vary greatly in how they respond, in the hope that understanding may help some avoid making one of the regularly occurring mistakes is a bad thing? Bearing in mind that we had already seen the comments that this wouldn't happen with the systems on.
Sorry, I don't understand your issue with the discussion but as I said, sorry for the perceived hijack, genuinely intended as helpful.
Sorry, I don't understand your issue with the discussion but as I said, sorry for the perceived hijack, genuinely intended as helpful.
Hungrymc said:
And so a bit of shared experience that is warning people of the fact that these systems vary greatly in how they respond, in the hope that understanding may help some avoid making one of the regularly occurring mistakes is a bad thing? Bearing in mind that we had already seen the comments that this wouldn't happen with the systems on.
Sorry, I don't understand your issue with the discussion but as I said, sorry for the perceived hijack, genuinely intended as helpful.
Err the thread title is about 6 people hit in battersy.Sorry, I don't understand your issue with the discussion but as I said, sorry for the perceived hijack, genuinely intended as helpful.
Not the anecdotal experience of people not involved in the hitting of 6 innocent people walking across a bridge?
I'm sure this thread will stop many a confident driver from hitting people or relying too much on their traction control.
As I previously said, another thread discussing aids is probably more appropriate than on a thread about 6 people run over. What is too hard to grasp???
glencooley said:
Err the thread title is about 6 people hit in battersy.
Not the anecdotal experience of people not involved in the hitting of 6 innocent people walking across a bridge?
I'm sure this thread will stop many a confident driver from hitting people or relying too much on their traction control.
As I previously said, another thread discussing aids is probably more appropriate than on a thread about 6 people run over. What is too hard to grasp???
Isn't that how conversations go? They wander and are all the better for it. You wouldn't try and control the flow of the conversation around a pub table without seeming a little at odds with how the world worked?Not the anecdotal experience of people not involved in the hitting of 6 innocent people walking across a bridge?
I'm sure this thread will stop many a confident driver from hitting people or relying too much on their traction control.
As I previously said, another thread discussing aids is probably more appropriate than on a thread about 6 people run over. What is too hard to grasp???
glencooley said:
Err the thread title is about 6 people hit in battersy.
Not the anecdotal experience of people not involved in the hitting of 6 innocent people walking across a bridge?
I'm sure this thread will stop many a confident driver from hitting people or relying too much on their traction control.
As I previously said, another thread discussing aids is probably more appropriate than on a thread about 6 people run over. What is too hard to grasp???
I don't know what you are finding so hard to grasp?Not the anecdotal experience of people not involved in the hitting of 6 innocent people walking across a bridge?
I'm sure this thread will stop many a confident driver from hitting people or relying too much on their traction control.
As I previously said, another thread discussing aids is probably more appropriate than on a thread about 6 people run over. What is too hard to grasp???
In a thread about a terrible incident causing 6 innocent people to be hurt, you don't want to talk about the potential errors that lead to a loss of control and 6 innocent people being hurt - and hopefully could help avoid the odd incident in the future. Particularly as it's a complex area that not everyone has had first hand experience of, and carries a often held belief that is incorrect. It is certainly not as obvious and universally understood as not posting on Facebook while you drive. What do you think is more appropriate content for this thread? By all means lead us down a more constructive route....
Hungrymc said:
I think you've missed the point (that has been made many times). The TC/SC discussion is not about a driver's ability or about the surprise that it kicks in.
The point is that it's potentially a huge mistake to assume it will catch you. And just because it did in a one car really does not mean it will in another. Please don't take offense but to dismiss the point shows that there is a huge difference in understanding about how these systems are configured by different manufacturers and what they will and will not do.
Anyway - it has become a bit of a thread hijack again for which I apologize. So I'll wish the injured well and butt out.
This is true. I almost binned my Boxster a couple of months ago on a very familiar (albeit slippy) corner. DSC in my old M5 would nullify anything more than the tail twitching but I genuinely had no idea a modern(ish) Porsche with all stability systems on could get so out of shape without deliberately trying to provoke the thing.The point is that it's potentially a huge mistake to assume it will catch you. And just because it did in a one car really does not mean it will in another. Please don't take offense but to dismiss the point shows that there is a huge difference in understanding about how these systems are configured by different manufacturers and what they will and will not do.
Anyway - it has become a bit of a thread hijack again for which I apologize. So I'll wish the injured well and butt out.
Hungrymc said:
I think you've missed the point (that has been made many times). The TC/SC discussion is not about a driver's ability or about the surprise that it kicks in.
The point is that it's potentially a huge mistake to assume it will catch you. And just because it did in a one car really does not mean it will in another. Please don't take offense but to dismiss the point shows that there is a huge difference in understanding about how these systems are configured by different manufacturers and what they will and will not do.
Anyway - it has become a bit of a thread hijack again for which I apologize. So I'll wish the injured well and butt out.
I think the point everyone is trying to make is that these systems aren't infallible. Therefore you should drive to your own limits not those of some computer system that may or may not be better than you. Computers crash too remember and they don't feel pain or get prosecuted if it goes badly wrong. The point is that it's potentially a huge mistake to assume it will catch you. And just because it did in a one car really does not mean it will in another. Please don't take offense but to dismiss the point shows that there is a huge difference in understanding about how these systems are configured by different manufacturers and what they will and will not do.
Anyway - it has become a bit of a thread hijack again for which I apologize. So I'll wish the injured well and butt out.
It would be interesting to know what these systems do when the inputs exceed the limits of it's programming or the outputs required are more than the car can deliver. It may also depend on how it handles unhelpful driver actions.
Totally agree Grumpy. Only safe way to drive is to stay well clear of the car's limits. That's much easier to do once you understand that the limits are maybe far, far lower than you might expect, particularly on a cold, damp morning, if you're transfering your knowledge from something more mainstream to something's like this.
AMG Merc said:
Not sure I'm reading the flavour of the electronic aid comments here but IF anyone drives their cars in a style based on where the switch is set to then they're a Christmas Cracker 
The point I've (clearly really) struggled to make was in response to comments that the TC/SC must have been switched off. That suggest to me that some people believe these systems are a very robust safety net. They are pretty robust in some cars, and not at all robust (particularly in cold, damp conditions) in other cars. It would be a pretty poor community on here if we didn't share experience that may help avoid each other having to learn the hard way (and possibly hurting others while doing so).Hungrymc said:
AMG Merc said:
Not sure I'm reading the flavour of the electronic aid comments here but IF anyone drives their cars in a style based on where the switch is set to then they're a Christmas Cracker
The point I've (clearly really) struggled to make was in response to comments that the TC/SC must have been switched off. That suggest to me that some people believe these systems are a very robust safety net. They are pretty robust in some cars, and not at all robust (particularly in cold, damp conditions) in other cars. It would be a pretty poor community on here if we didn't share experience that may help avoid each other having to learn the hard way (and possibly hurting others while doing so).
grumpy grandad said:
I think the point everyone is trying to make is that these systems aren't infallible.
It would be interesting to know what these systems do when the inputs exceed the limits of it's programming or the outputs required are more than the car can deliver.
It may also depend on how it handles unhelpful driver actions.
^^^I think this is worthy of it's own thread.It would be interesting to know what these systems do when the inputs exceed the limits of it's programming or the outputs required are more than the car can deliver.
It may also depend on how it handles unhelpful driver actions.
I am used to old cars without any driver aids and the only time I had a play in the snow with a car with aids a bit of fun nearly got out of hand as the programmers clearly didn't expect the driver to react to a slide.
What I expected to be a brief slide (based on a 20+ years experience) became a 50m experience of WTF !!!
Depending upon your position it's / my inputs were unhelpful - with it's sensors, it at least knew what I was doing, I had no idea what it was doing !
V8RX7 said:
^^^I think this is worthy of it's own thread.
I am used to old cars without any driver aids and the only time I had a play in the snow with a car with aids a bit of fun nearly got out of hand as the programmers clearly didn't expect the driver to react to a slide.
What I expected to be a brief slide (based on a 20+ years experience) became a 50m experience of WTF !!!
Depending upon your position it's / my inputs were unhelpful - with it's sensors, it at least knew what I was doing, I had no idea what it was doing !
Yes, its easy to get into trouble if you react before the system does which then kicks in and adds additional correction to what you're already doing. This can result in the car snapping back the other way if you're not careful.I am used to old cars without any driver aids and the only time I had a play in the snow with a car with aids a bit of fun nearly got out of hand as the programmers clearly didn't expect the driver to react to a slide.
What I expected to be a brief slide (based on a 20+ years experience) became a 50m experience of WTF !!!
Depending upon your position it's / my inputs were unhelpful - with it's sensors, it at least knew what I was doing, I had no idea what it was doing !
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