Do I really need more than 300 BHP?

[Flibble]

Conscript said:

PhillipM said:

Even then, they'd have to have changed the exhaust manifold to something that deliberately hurts performance...

I think you'd be surprised. The stock manifold with it's short length and in-built CAT is pretty much the biggest reason for the poor torque curve of the standard engine; changing it to any decent aftermarket part will generally improve the performance, whether it's unequal length or not.

Quite my unequal length manifold added about 10 bhp, hardly "hurting" performance. The difference between equal and unequal length manifolds on a GT86 is 1-2 bhp typically, which is lost in the noise.

[V8RX7]

Ikemi said:

Also, to everyone else - you don't have to break the speed limit. If you're in a 60/70mph and accelerate from 20mph ... yeah, you reach your intended speed incredibly quickly, but it's the feeling of brutal acceleration that makes people laugh/scream/disapprove.

Makes the gearbox and handling a bit pointless.

I find I get used to acceleration very quickly and it soon becomes dull.

Playing on the edge of grip is the fun part IMO

[havoc]

V8RX7 said:

Playing on the edge of grip is the fun part IMO

Feeling a car get up on it's toes, so-to-speak - to start to move underneath you without being so vulgar as to degenerate into proper over-/understeer.

[Loyly]

havoc said:

Feeling a car get up on it's toes, so-to-speak - to start to move underneath you without being so vulgar as to degenerate into proper over-/understeer.

I've always preferred the feeling of tidy, accurate driving which is ultimately quicker. I'm a slave to technique, happy to slide a bit on the very edge of grip but not one for slopping about for fun's sake.

[ChilliWhizz]

havoc said:

V8RX7 said:

Playing on the edge of grip is the fun part IMO

Feeling a car get up on it's toes, so-to-speak - to start to move underneath you without being so vulgar as to degenerate into proper over-/understeer.

I'd be interested to hear how you guys know when you're 'playing' on the edge of grip. On public roads. Or is this a track day thing?

[Toltec]

ChilliWhizz said:

havoc said:

V8RX7 said:

Playing on the edge of grip is the fun part IMO

Feeling a car get up on it's toes, so-to-speak - to start to move underneath you without being so vulgar as to degenerate into proper over-/understeer.

I'd be interested to hear how you guys know when you're 'playing' on the edge of grip. On public roads. Or is this a track day thing?

It also depends what you mean by edge of grip, for some it may mean starting to slide, for others it may mean completely sideways, but still hitting the exit.

[V8RX7]

ChilliWhizz said:

I'd be interested to hear how you guys know when you're 'playing' on the edge of grip.

With a decent car you feel it through the steering, seat, pedals... hence why I only like 90's cars sub 1250kg

MX5, 200SX, RX7...

A passing car wouldn't know.

The most memorable time was when I followed a well driven Mk5 Golf GTi in a modified 130bhp MX5 down the fosseway in the wet, it was dancing - not sliding.

Edited by V8RX7 on Wednesday 13th December 20:08

[havoc]

Loyly said:

havoc said:

Feeling a car get up on it's toes, so-to-speak - to start to move underneath you without being so vulgar as to degenerate into proper over-/understeer.

I've always preferred the feeling of tidy, accurate driving which is ultimately quicker. I'm a slave to technique, happy to slide a bit on the very edge of grip but not one for slopping about for fun's sake.

Which is sort of what I was trying to convey - as per the last half of the sentence. There's a definite point at which you can feel the tyres shifting the load slightly, at which the car 'takes an attitude' without getting out of shape.

ChillWhizz - depends on the car. Hence why I dislike overpowered / overtyred / over-servo'd modern stuff...

[waxaholic]

Do i need more than 300 bhp, how daft a question is that i mean, stuffed into what a light weekend toy or a luxury barge and even then what's plenty for you is yawn inducing to others, that's like asking what colour socks are the best for a monday morning lol

[SidewaysSi]

Sideways. Against the lockstops on the road around a roundabout.

Bonus points if you can doughnut around someone.

That's why I don't like cars with too much grip. Enough power to push the chassis pwrgerably in a lowish grip car. Ideally something older without much (anything) in the way of electronic crap.

[craig2003]

The answer is very dependant on the individual I reckon, it doesn’t take long to get used to power.
When I got the Caterham it really did scare me at the thought of the power to weight (311 bhp circa 545kg) and the sheer drama it seems to induce, a year and a half in, it is nowhere near the original fear inducing machine it was in my head, I would now gladly accept more power but do I actually need it? Probably not

[Ikemi]

V8RX7 said:

Ikemi said:

Also, to everyone else - you don't have to break the speed limit. If you're in a 60/70mph and accelerate from 20mph ... yeah, you reach your intended speed incredibly quickly, but it's the feeling of brutal acceleration that makes people laugh/scream/disapprove.

Makes the gearbox and handling a bit pointless.

I find I get used to acceleration very quickly and it soon becomes dull.

Playing on the edge of grip is the fun part IMO

That's why I have a Lotus with tons of power ... It's still fun in the corners at half throttle, and as it only weighs 740Kgs (plus decent setup - Nitrons etc.), it's incredibly responsive. Mine also has a 6 speed box fitted. It certainly provides a sense of occasion.

[Flibble]

ChilliWhizz said:

I'd be interested to hear how you guys know when you're 'playing' on the edge of grip. On public roads. Or is this a track day thing?

For me at least, I can feel when the back end is starting to get a bit "loose" but isn't actually sliding around or lighting the tyres up. As others have said, the tyres and suspension feed back so you can feel the difference in the way the car moves. Happens on the road a little, but (much) more on track.

[Rawwr]

The thing with Elises, Exiges, Sevens and other lightweights is that it's often hard to describe exactly what you're feeling when the car is feeding you its buckets full of information. It's why describing exactly what 'good handling' means is tricky and why there doesn't appear to be an agreeable definition. You feel it in your bum, your hands and your stomach and you feel it in the resistance or lack thereof in the wheel, pedals and stick. It's classic motoring journalism chiché stuff that you feel like you're a part of the car rather than a separate human element who happens to be piloting it.

I drive a Focus ST. It's a nippy, capable car, which does everything pretty well and whilst it has moments of being entertaining, it's far from 'fun' and 99% of its time it's just a warm, take-it-or-leave-it hatchback that gets me to work and the shops.

I've driven a reasonable handful of big power cars and the truly enjoyable ones have been ones where often the event is not in the engine and the power but in the feel and handling. The F50 feels like someone has somehow shoehorned an amazing V12 into an S1 Elise but a DB9 feels like someone has built a Mondeo around a V12 for a bit of a laugh. Feeling and unfeeling.

YMMV.

[e30m3Mark]

One of the biggest failings of the modern cars for me is the steering and its being devoid of feel. I bought a 2015 Audi A3 Sport (for Mrs E30) and it was truly awful. Whilst I didn't expect it to feel like my M3, I would have liked to at least feel I knew what the front tyres were doing. It just felt horribly over assisted and vague. The V8 M3 I ran was better but still had moments where I felt more passenger than driver. Admittedly the performance of the V8 was awesome and on the A30 just after the rise of the summer sun, I had an ideal opportunity to stretch its legs a little, but it's limits were so high that had I got things wrong it would have had serious consequences. It's a great car but I was more than happy to go back to my E30 with half the power.

[V8RX7]

Ikemi said:

V8RX7 said:

Ikemi said:

Also, to everyone else - you don't have to break the speed limit. If you're in a 60/70mph and accelerate from 20mph ... yeah, you reach your intended speed incredibly quickly, but it's the feeling of brutal acceleration that makes people laugh/scream/disapprove.

Makes the gearbox and handling a bit pointless.

I find I get used to acceleration very quickly and it soon becomes dull.

Playing on the edge of grip is the fun part IMO

That's why I have a Lotus with tons of power ... It's still fun in the corners at half throttle, and as it only weighs 740Kgs (plus decent setup - Nitrons etc.), it's incredibly responsive. Mine also has a 6 speed box fitted. It certainly provides a sense of occasion.

I can't exploit my MX5's handling within the speed limit so either you or your car is broken

[CABC]

Rawwr said:

I've driven a reasonable handful of big power cars and the truly enjoyable ones have been ones where often the event is not in the engine and the power but in the feel and handling. The F50 feels like someone has somehow shoehorned an amazing V12 into an S1 Elise but a DB9 feels like someone has built a Mondeo around a V12 for a bit of a laugh. Feeling and unfeeling.

YMMV.

interesting. Makes me want to drive to drive an F50 as I certainly get your AM comment.

[Ares]

e30m3Mark said:

One of the biggest failings of the modern cars for me is the steering and its being devoid of feel. I bought a 2015 Audi A3 Sport (for Mrs E30) and it was truly awful. Whilst I didn't expect it to feel like my M3, I would have liked to at least feel I knew what the front tyres were doing. It just felt horribly over assisted and vague. The V8 M3 I ran was better but still had moments where I felt more passenger than driver. Admittedly the performance of the V8 was awesome and on the A30 just after the rise of the summer sun, I had an ideal opportunity to stretch its legs a little, but it's limits were so high that had I got things wrong it would have had serious consequences. It's a great car but I was more than happy to go back to my E30 with half the power.

In fairness, Audi have never been known for steering feel.

[Ikemi]

V8RX7 said:

Ikemi said:

V8RX7 said:

Ikemi said:

Also, to everyone else - you don't have to break the speed limit. If you're in a 60/70mph and accelerate from 20mph ... yeah, you reach your intended speed incredibly quickly, but it's the feeling of brutal acceleration that makes people laugh/scream/disapprove.

Makes the gearbox and handling a bit pointless.

I find I get used to acceleration very quickly and it soon becomes dull.

Playing on the edge of grip is the fun part IMO

That's why I have a Lotus with tons of power ... It's still fun in the corners at half throttle, and as it only weighs 740Kgs (plus decent setup - Nitrons etc.), it's incredibly responsive. Mine also has a 6 speed box fitted. It certainly provides a sense of occasion.

I can't exploit my MX5's handling within the speed limit so either you or your car is broken

I'm not quite sure what you mean? You don't need to be on the limit to enjoy corners ... and what do you mean by exploit? Surely you can feel the difference in handling/feedback of an MX5 compared to a (for example) BMW M5 at legal speeds? Not entirely sure how I'm broken either. My car certainly isn't. It's well looked after.

[V8RX7]

Ikemi said:

You don't need to be on the limit to enjoy corners ...

Surely you can feel the difference in handling/feedback of an MX5 compared to a (for example) BMW M5 at legal speeds?

You may not - I do.

Yes mine has some an M5 in comparison, at the same speeds - does not.