Discussion
On another note Interesting story about the US arm of SAAB back in 1983 before the 900 cabrio was born
lack of vision for the brand not new but so glad Bob pushed it through.
http://inside.saab.com/bob-sinclair-on-the-birth-o...
lack of vision for the brand not new but so glad Bob pushed it through.
http://inside.saab.com/bob-sinclair-on-the-birth-o...
Slade Alive said:
Says the man with the most unbiased, does he have an axe to grind, PH moniker 
Oh Mr Wilde, how do you do it?If you'd read my other posts you'd see I very much hope that Saab survive. But get real, I don't see the couple of billion they need on the horizon. The newest Rover I ever owned was an SD1 with a 4.6 V8. Great engine but the rest was still appalling screwed together so I'm no Rover fanboy. They should have died years earlier or let Alchemy buy them out.
Edited by rovermorris999 on Monday 23 May 16:16
rovermorris999 said:
I don't see the couple of billion they need on the horizon.
It's not like we know how much Saab require or Muller has / can get. Why bother guessing they'll fail based on what money you've no idea will work for them?I'd prefer to think people like Muller wouldn't get involved unless they thought they were in with a bloody good chance. Oh but wait. Don't tell me. Muller is robbing Saab with his playboy smile and not a gun and everyone at Saab falls for this charming trickery. Who'd a thunk it. Playboy pen wielding bank robber masquerades as car company saviour.
Have a look its all there on the website including stock market links, hiding something ? I don't think so
Transparency ? absolutely
http://www.spykercars.nl/?pag=1
Transparency ? absolutely
http://www.spykercars.nl/?pag=1
I'm going to take a short break from being pessimistic about 9-5 residual values and sitting seven-tenths of the way between Slade and Hypno-Toad (No offence to either, hope you can both see the funny side! 
) to say:
"Isn't this old Sonnet for sale bloody lovely?"
http://www.classiccarsforsale.co.uk/classic-car-pa...
Enjoy! Glad I don't quite have the readies to buy it, I'd be worried if I did...
) to say: "Isn't this old Sonnet for sale bloody lovely?"
http://www.classiccarsforsale.co.uk/classic-car-pa...
Enjoy! Glad I don't quite have the readies to buy it, I'd be worried if I did...
Slade Alive said:
It's not like we know how much Saab require or Muller has / can get. Why bother guessing they'll fail based on what money you've no idea will work for them?
And yet again you prove your complete blind ignorance of the situation. If Muller is only in it for the love of the company and he had serious money to invest in the company do you think he might have done it by now? Even if I do put on some rose tinted specs for a while and say that Antonov has a few hundred million tucked away, do you think that if Muller knew some one else who could save the company, he wouldn't have got them to pump their money in by now? Maybe he's lost Mr Gates and Mr Bransons private numbers but as soon as he finds them again, they will come riding over the horzion on their coal black steeds to save the day.Anyone on this site who has ever picked up a car magazine will know exactly how much money Saab need to develop new models and I'm not going to bother telling you again because you are either hard of reading or more likely you are just sticking your fingers in your ears yelling "La, la, la I can't hear you Toad, la, la, la," to any post that myself or anyone else on here puts up when it disagrees with your blinkered view.
You have asked me to be factual. I have done that, I have quoted Bloomberg, Dow Jones, Ttela, Chinese Car Times, Shanghai Daily and even saabuntied.com. All you have said to back your point of view is that you have a source in China who says that everything is going to be ok but you can't say anything else as you might get Haymarket in trouble. Well Gordon Murray & John Barnard both used to come in to a shop where I worked but that doesn't make me an expert on F1 design.
I can't even be bothered now to say again the reasons why I care about this or to justify myself and my negative outlook again to you or anyone else on this thread. Quite frankly I can't see the point of justifying myself to someone who just regurgitates the latest Saab/Muller propaganda.
But I will just ask you this;
If Muller is the saviour of Saab and has complete faith that it will come good in the end...
1.) Why has he ring fenced the Spyker part of the business? You would have thought that if Saab survive & become more profitable he would want to spend some of that on developing his "smoke & a pancake," supercar. But of course, if Saab do go down the pan and least he'll still have that to fall back on. In fact, Spyker as a company won't have lost a thing from the whole venture.
2.) Muller has been caught being 'economical with the truth' again & again.
i.) About the original cause of the crisis.
ii.) About when payments to suppliers would be made.
iii.) About re-start dates to production.
iv.) About which companies he was talking to in China.
v.) About what had deals been done.
vi.) About how many MoUs he has signed with what Chinese companies.
Why should I or anyone else in this whole sorry affair trust him? And as someone else on here has already pointed out, has Spyker ever made a profit?
Granted if he does turn this around and this time next year I have custard feet, then he deserves the Nobel Prize for Business Skills because will be the best businessman on the entire planet. However I have a sneaking suspicion that my feet will remain custard-free and Mr Muller will still be a millionaire in 12 months time. My friends however (and probably gawdlpus too) could well all be out of a job.
End of the week will be payroll and also when the outstanding overdue from three months ago. invoices arrive from the suppliers who still have not been paid. Let's see how things unfold...
Edited by The Hypno-Toad on Monday 23 May 20:52
Negative Creep said:
I'll get my cv in.The Hypno-Toad said:
And yet again you prove your complete blind ignorance of the situation. If Muller is only in it for the love of the company and he had serious money to invest in the company do you think he might have done it by now?
Who said anything about love of the company? He's in business for f
k sake. Not a love fest for car enthusiasts. I believe he's out there now trying to get that serious money you speak of. I'm sure if he'd have made the investment it would have happened by now, yes. Or did you mean his own money? In which case don't be so dumb.Toad said:
Even if I do put on some rose tinted specs for a while and say that Antonov has a few hundred million tucked away, do you think that if Muller knew some one else who could save the company, he wouldn't have got them to pump their money in by now? Maybe he's lost Mr Gates and Mr Bransons private numbers but as soon as he finds them again, they will come riding over the horzion on their coal black steeds to save the day.
I don't believe Branson has the facilities on his Island nor Gates on his. Last time I was in Manhattan space was at a premium with no room to build a car plant. But maybe Branson and Gates are not into these types of investment. History proves such. The Chinese though, now there is the largest growing car market in the world right there. Maybe that's why Muller went there. A clue don't ya think Toad?Toad said:
Anyone on this site who has ever picked up a car magazine will know exactly how much money Saab need to develop new models and I'm not going to bother telling you again because you are either hard of reading or more likely you are just sticking your fingers in your ears yelling "La, la, la I can't hear you Toad, la, la, la," to any post that myself or anyone else on here puts up when it disagrees with your blinkered view.
Utter rubbish. Car magazines my arse. You need to look a lot higher than the newsagent shelf my friend. Ultima Media not for sale to the general public.Toad said:
You have asked me to be factual. I have done that, I have quoted Bloomberg, Dow Jones, Ttela, Chinese Car Times, Shanghai Daily and even saabuntied.com.
I'm sure their source is likely one and the same so no news really is it. Toad said:
All you have said to back your point of view is that you have a source in China who says that everything is going to be ok but you can't say anything else as you might get Haymarket in trouble. Well Gordon Murray & John Barnard both used to come in to a shop where I worked but that doesn't make me an expert on F1 design.
I actually said he was 'confident' was all and suggested he might be more aware of automotive production matters in China and Chinese government hurdles, than me listening to you. There was no mention of any conflict of interest with Haymarket. That would have been another source had you read correctly. I don't think there's any need for the facetious comment about Murray and Barnard and your lack of expertise in F1 design. But thank you. Duly noted.
Toad said:
I can't even be bothered now to say again the reasons why I care about this or to justify myself and my negative outlook again to you or anyone else on this thread. Quite frankly I can't see the point of justifying myself to someone who just regurgitates the latest Saab/Muller propaganda.
Who would that be? I've not read anyone here regurgitating any such persons propaganda. Toad said:
But I will just ask you this;
If Muller is the saviour of Saab and has complete faith that it will come good in the end...
1.) Why has he ring fenced the Spyker part of the business? You would have thought that if Saab survive & become more profitable he would want to spend some of that on developing his "smoke & a pancake," supercar. But of course, if Saab do go down the pan and least he'll still have that to fall back on. In fact, Spyker as a company won't have lost a thing from the whole venture.
Then it would appear you've answered your own question, except for me to say, maybe he's smarter than you give him credit for. If Muller is the saviour of Saab and has complete faith that it will come good in the end...
1.) Why has he ring fenced the Spyker part of the business? You would have thought that if Saab survive & become more profitable he would want to spend some of that on developing his "smoke & a pancake," supercar. But of course, if Saab do go down the pan and least he'll still have that to fall back on. In fact, Spyker as a company won't have lost a thing from the whole venture.
Toad said:
2.) Muller has been caught being 'economical with the truth' again & again.
i.) About the original cause of the crisis.
ii.) About when payments to suppliers would be made.
iii.) About re-start dates to production.
iv.) About which companies he was talking to in China.
v.) About what had deals been done.
vi.) About how many MoUs he has signed with what Chinese companies.
Why should I or anyone else in this whole sorry affair trust him? And as someone else on here has already pointed out, has Spyker ever made a profit?
I'd rather have a poker player trying for a rescue attempt than some moralistic do gooder bent on playing by the rules in the cut throat world of big business where every other fi.) About the original cause of the crisis.
ii.) About when payments to suppliers would be made.
iii.) About re-start dates to production.
iv.) About which companies he was talking to in China.
v.) About what had deals been done.
vi.) About how many MoUs he has signed with what Chinese companies.
Why should I or anyone else in this whole sorry affair trust him? And as someone else on here has already pointed out, has Spyker ever made a profit?
ker's a poker player too. toad said:
Granted if he does turn this around and this time next year I have custard feet, then he deserves the Nobel Prize for Business Skills because will be the best businessman on the entire planet. However I have a sneaking suspicion that my feet will remain custard-free and Mr Muller will still be a millionaire in 12 months time. My friends however (and probably gawdlpus too) could well all be out of a job.
So you would have Muller skint for trying and failing then? For failing to save Saab Muller can only be worthy in your eyes if he invests all his personal wealth and looses it? I'm sure that would put more than you and gawd out of a job.toad said:
End of the week will be payroll and also when the outstanding overdue from three months ago. invoices arrive from the suppliers who still have not been paid. Let's see how things unfold...
What! A pragmatic response from Toad after all this time. Amazing.blearyeyedboy said:
I'm going to take a short break from being pessimistic about 9-5 residual values and sitting seven-tenths of the way between Slade and Hypno-Toad (No offence to either, hope you can both see the funny side! ) to say:
"Isn't this old Sonnet for sale bloody lovely?"
http://www.classiccarsforsale.co.uk/classic-car-pa...
Enjoy! Glad I don't quite have the readies to buy it, I'd be worried if I did...
There i salso an earlier one here ) to say: "Isn't this old Sonnet for sale bloody lovely?"
http://www.classiccarsforsale.co.uk/classic-car-pa...
Enjoy! Glad I don't quite have the readies to buy it, I'd be worried if I did...
http://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C199923
and also this baby
http://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C217633#
very cool and very small but good fun
I really enjoyed my 2009 9-3 TTiD 180 BHP Aero Convertible - but it's gone now; I part exchanged it for something from a solvent manufacturer - not because it was a bad car, but in anticipation of owning a valueless car if/when Saab goes under. It achieved the full part exchange value I expected - so dealers aren't yet having concerns about Saab; but for how long?
I waited 3 weeks around Easter last year for a part to be delivered - and that was when Saab's suppliers were supplying; but, because the part couldn't be sourced, the dealer had to strip one from a new car in his storage compound. So, I started to fret that something major would go wrong this year and parts would be unavailable; indeed, perhaps routine OEM consumables might be difficult to source.
We all remember what happened when MG/Rover went under; cars in various states of servicing and repair stuck in dealerships that went into administration. Owners trying to get their cars back from the receivers - lining up outside with low loaders and mechanics in the hope of at least recovering their goods. And, of course, owners with finance agreements that completely eclipsed the value of their cars.
So, although I was already thinking about changing the Saab, recent events caused me to jump ship; I wonder how many other people will take a similar step?
It's really sad, because I really liked the Saab and the company's idiosyncratic products have much to offer; however, perhaps one day I'll have confidence again in the brand.
Del
I waited 3 weeks around Easter last year for a part to be delivered - and that was when Saab's suppliers were supplying; but, because the part couldn't be sourced, the dealer had to strip one from a new car in his storage compound. So, I started to fret that something major would go wrong this year and parts would be unavailable; indeed, perhaps routine OEM consumables might be difficult to source.
We all remember what happened when MG/Rover went under; cars in various states of servicing and repair stuck in dealerships that went into administration. Owners trying to get their cars back from the receivers - lining up outside with low loaders and mechanics in the hope of at least recovering their goods. And, of course, owners with finance agreements that completely eclipsed the value of their cars.
So, although I was already thinking about changing the Saab, recent events caused me to jump ship; I wonder how many other people will take a similar step?
It's really sad, because I really liked the Saab and the company's idiosyncratic products have much to offer; however, perhaps one day I'll have confidence again in the brand.
Del
Slade Alive said:
The Hypno-Toad said:
And yet again you prove your complete blind ignorance of the situation. If Muller is only in it for the love of the company and he had serious money to invest in the company do you think he might have done it by now?
Who said anything about love of the company? He's in business for fk sake. Not a love fest for car enthusiasts. I believe he's out there now trying to get that serious money you speak of. I'm sure if he'd have made the investment it would have happened by now, yes. Or did you mean his own money? In which case don't be so dumb.Muller has said on numerous occasions that he loves the company and that he is an enthusiast for the product & and in it for the long term, so why I am I being dumb to suggest this? If he is such a fan, surely he would sell Spyker and pour the money into Saab? If he has long term faith in the product and is sure that in the future it will be profitable, why not sell off a sports car company that has never made a bean and has sold an average of 35 cars a year? Surely long term he'll will make much more money out of Saab than he would ever make selling Spykers. Unless of course, he plans to return to Spyker or possibly that as such a shining example of his business acumen nobody wants to buy it?
Toad said:
Even if I do put on some rose tinted specs for a while and say that Antonov has a few hundred million tucked away, do you think that if Muller knew some one else who could save the company, he wouldn't have got them to pump their money in by now? Maybe he's lost Mr Gates and Mr Bransons private numbers but as soon as he finds them again, they will come riding over the horzion on their coal black steeds to save the day.
I don't believe Branson has the facilities on his Island nor Gates on his. Last time I was in Manhattan space was at a premium with no room to build a car plant. But maybe Branson and Gates are not into these types of investment. History proves such. The Chinese though, now there is the largest growing car market in the world right there. Maybe that's why Muller went there. A clue don't ya think Toad?[b]
Are you seriously suggesting that if Gates & Branson were to invest into Saab they would want to move all the production facilities to their own private islands? Who do you think they are, Blofeld? And you talk about dumb?
I would agree that the Chinese market is enormous at the moment but what makes you think that they will like Saab anymore than the Europeans? Especially as Audi, BMW & Mercedes have had manufacturing, distribution, advertising, and dealer networks in place for some considerable time.
[/b]
Toad said:
Anyone on this site who has ever picked up a car magazine will know exactly how much money Saab need to develop new models and I'm not going to bother telling you again because you are either hard of reading or more likely you are just sticking your fingers in your ears yelling "La, la, la I can't hear you Toad, la, la, la," to any post that myself or anyone else on here puts up when it disagrees with your blinkered view.
Utter rubbish. Car magazines my arse. You need to look a lot higher than the newsagent shelf. Ultima Media not for sale to the general public.Right. So just so I'm totally crystal clear on this. You believe that you know better than every single motoring journalist on the planet? That all their experience in the industry over the past 20 years, the fact that they know CEOs of all the major companies, probably had dinners with them, maybe even know their kids names, these people are all wrong and you are right just because you've looked at a few industry magazines? Industry magazines are full of puff pieces, paid for by the people they feature. Most of them would never dream of publishing any negative articles as that way the pieces and therefore the advertising and therefore the money would dry up. If you had any knowledge of the motor trade, you would know that there is nothing CEOs of these companies like doing more than telling everyone how wonderful they are.
Toad said:
You have asked me to be factual. I have done that, I have quoted Bloomberg, Dow Jones, Ttela, Chinese Car Times, Shanghai Daily and even saabuntied.com.
I'm sure their source is likely one and the same so no news really is it.This comment is so deliciously insane, I'll deal with it at the bottom.
Toad said:
All you have said to back your point of view is that you have a source in China who says that everything is going to be ok but you can't say anything else as you might get Haymarket in trouble. Well Gordon Murray & John Barnard both used to come in to a shop where I worked but that doesn't make me an expert on F1 design.
I actually said he was 'confident' was all and suggested he might be more aware of automotive production matters in China and Chinese government hurdles, than me listening to you. There was no mention of any conflict of interest with Haymarket. That would have been another source had you read correctly. I don't think there's any need for the facetious comment about Murray and Barnard and your lack of expertise in F1 design. But thank you. Duly noted.
[b]
Ok then, name names. If there is no conflict of interest, name names. Who is this wonderful person in China who knows all? I've told you where I get my information, you tell us where you're getting yours. Name names.
The F1 comment was because this is a motoring forum and I thought it would be obvious who these people are. I could have also said Bobby Davro & Shane Ritchie (because they came into the shop too.) & that they wouldn't have made me a comedian but judging by some of your comments...
[/b]
Toad said:
I can't even be bothered now to say again the reasons why I care about this or to justify myself and my negative outlook again to you or anyone else on this thread. Quite frankly I can't see the point of justifying myself to someone who just regurgitates the latest Saab/Muller propaganda.
Who would that be? I've not read anyone here regurgitating any such persons propaganda. You recite Mullers party line. You won't take the view that anyone else can possibly have another outlook on current events. So what does that make you other than a mouthpiece for Muller?
Toad said:
But I will just ask you this;
If Muller is the saviour of Saab and has complete faith that it will come good in the end...
1.) Why has he ring fenced the Spyker part of the business? You would have thought that if Saab survive & become more profitable he would want to spend some of that on developing his "smoke & a pancake," supercar. But of course, if Saab do go down the pan and least he'll still have that to fall back on. In fact, Spyker as a company won't have lost a thing from the whole venture.
Then it would appear you've answered your own question, except for me to say, maybe he's smarter than you give him credit for. If Muller is the saviour of Saab and has complete faith that it will come good in the end...
1.) Why has he ring fenced the Spyker part of the business? You would have thought that if Saab survive & become more profitable he would want to spend some of that on developing his "smoke & a pancake," supercar. But of course, if Saab do go down the pan and least he'll still have that to fall back on. In fact, Spyker as a company won't have lost a thing from the whole venture.
If he was that smart, I wouldn't be able to make predictions about what he is about to do. And as I said before, if the oppotunity to make money out of Saab is as big as he preaches then what does he need Spyker for? He could even just let Saab re-badge the car and sell it through selected showrooms.
Toad said:
2.) Muller has been caught being 'economical with the truth' again & again.
i.) About the original cause of the crisis.
ii.) About when payments to suppliers would be made.
iii.) About re-start dates to production.
iv.) About which companies he was talking to in China.
v.) About what had deals been done.
vi.) About how many MoUs he has signed with what Chinese companies.
Why should I or anyone else in this whole sorry affair trust him? And as someone else on here has already pointed out, has Spyker ever made a profit?
I'd rather have a poker player trying for a rescue attempt than some moralistic do gooder bent on playing by the rules in the cut throat world of big business where every other fi.) About the original cause of the crisis.
ii.) About when payments to suppliers would be made.
iii.) About re-start dates to production.
iv.) About which companies he was talking to in China.
v.) About what had deals been done.
vi.) About how many MoUs he has signed with what Chinese companies.
Why should I or anyone else in this whole sorry affair trust him? And as someone else on here has already pointed out, has Spyker ever made a profit?
ker's a poker player too.There is a difference between playing poker and deliberatly misleading the very people you need on board, the suppliers and lets face it, the general public who might actually buy the cars. If you remember, there is even some debate as to if he has broken Chinese business law as well. The Youngman corporation certainly seem to think he has.
toad said:
Granted if he does turn this around and this time next year I have custard feet, then he deserves the Nobel Prize for Business Skills because will be the best businessman on the entire planet. However I have a sneaking suspicion that my feet will remain custard-free and Mr Muller will still be a millionaire in 12 months time. My friends however (and probably gawdlpus too) could well all be out of a job.
So you would have Muller skint for trying and failing then? For failing to save Saab Muller can only be worthy in your eyes if he invests all his personal wealth and looses it? I'm sure that would put more than you and gawd out of a job.As I said before, Muller will still be a millionaire at the end of this, he won't be struggling to pay his mortgage. I have another friend who worked for a printing company that went into administration late last year & he was made redundant. He has only just found work, at a wage 15% less than he was before with double the travelling costs. If it wasn't for his parents he would be out on the street. And the boss? Set up and trading again under an almost indentical trading name. No baked beans on toast for dinner for him and it will be the same for Muller. And if you bothered to actually read my posts then you would recall I don't work for Saab and haven't done for 8 years.
sladealive said:
I'm sure their source is likely one and the same so no news really is it.
So all these journalists, all over the world, are getting all their information about this, from one source? One evil source, polluting the minds of the public against Saab and brave Mr Muller. It has nothing to do with the product or lack of funding, its one evil source polluting the minds of every motoring journalist on the planet. Who could it be?The Boss of VAG group? No.
The Boss of Mercedes-Benz? No.
Toad? I wish I was that powerful.
Henry, the mild mannered Janitor? Used that line before but I like it.
I have my own theory.
"I told you I wanted frickin' lasers on my Spyker, Mr Muller. And yet I have no frickin' lasers. You will now learn the punishment for failure. I will ruin you and your pretty little car company too!"
With paranoid comments like that I've changed my mind; you're not Swade, you're hedders.
Edited by The Hypno-Toad on Tuesday 24th May 22:08
Toad said:
Muller has said on numerous occasions that he loves the company and that he is an enthusiast for the product & and in it for the long term, so why I am I being dumb to suggest this? If he is such a fan, surely he would sell Spyker and pour the money into Saab? If he has long term faith in the product and is su..............................................BORING......
I'm pretty sure whatever BUSINESS Muller is up to he's not going to put his neck in the noose no matter how much he loves a company, any company, this company, and certainly not to appease any dumb suggestion not doing so is immoral. Toad said:
Are you seriously suggesting that if Gates & Branson were to invest into Saab they would want to move all the production facilities to their own private islands? Who do you think they are, Blofeld? And you talk about dumb?
No I was being facetious obviously.Toad said:
I would agree that the Chinese market is enormous at the moment
You drew such conclusion all on your own then?Toad said:
but what makes you think that they will like Saab anymore than the Europeans? Especially as Audi, BMW & Mercedes have had manufacturing, distribution, advertising, and dealer networks in place for some considerable time.
You'd have to take that up with Muller and the Chinese. I'm not the one looking for the answers remember. I'm simply pointing out it is you that seems to have issues following where Muller is going. It is you that is criticising his every move and coming up with negatives as to why YOU think it won't work.
Toad said:
Right. So just so I'm totally crystal clear on this. You believe that you know better than every single motoring journalist on the planet?
You can be as clear as you like though I never gave such an impression. Toad said:
That all their experience in the industry over the past 20 years, the fact that they know CEOs of all the major companies, probably had dinners with them, maybe even know their kids names, these people are all wrong and you are right just because you've looked at a few industry magazines? Industry magazines are full of puff pieces, paid for by the people they feature. Most of them would never dream of publishing any negative articles as that way the pieces and therefore the advertising and therefore the money would dry up. If you had any knowledge of the motor trade, you would know that there is nothing CEOs of these companies like doing more than telling everyone how wonderful they are.
Unfortunate you take such a cynical view. I did try to point out there are more intellectual sources, my opinion, of information available was all. Unfortunately you seem to have a rather corrupt view of how such sources gather their information. Few journalists from your fancied high street brands ever get to sit down with industry exec's. And I'm pretty sure the publications I pointed you toward don't actually sell copy to most if any CEO's and industry exec's but rather give them free subscription. What is printed is certainly not CEO's telling how wonderful they or the companies they represent are. That Toad is a rather clouded and pretty immature view if that's what you really believe.Toad said:
Ok then, name names. If there is no conflict of interest, name names. Who is this wonderful person in China who knows all? I've told you where I get my information, you tell us where you're getting yours. Name names.
Gathering second hand information off the web then putting your spin on it here, your spin being the main bone of contention I have with your commentary all through this topic. My information is private to me thank you. My source is confident is all I have said. You can spin that up any way you wish. If it pleases, you can exaggerate by suggesting my source is wonderful and knows all. I didn't say such though. You did Toad said:
You recite Mullers party line.
Where? I don't know the guy. He could be the biggest jerk walking for all I care.
Toad said:
You won't take the view that anyone else can possibly have another outlook on current events. So what does that make you other than a mouthpiece for Muller?
Someone who doesn't rehash web news with personal spin?Toad said:
If he was that smart, I wouldn't be able to make predictions about what he is about to do.
You really are full of self belief aren't you. Unbelievable. Toad said:
There is a difference between playing poker and deliberatly misleading the very people you need on board, the suppliers and lets face it, the general public who might actually buy the cars. If you remember, there is even some debate as to if he has broken Chinese business law as well. The Youngman corporation certainly seem to think he has.
You really have no idea what Muller has said, told, explained, organised with anybody. Have you a direct quote from these Saab supplying companies? Can you show Muller mislead the public, or was it just the spin you're spinning after reading it on the web? Where is this debate regarding broken Chinese business law? Or is that something you also read on the web?toad said:
As I said before, Muller will still be a millionaire at the end of this, he won't be struggling to pay his mortgage.
So what?Toad said:
I have another friend who worked for a printing company that went into administration late last year & he was made redundant. He has only just found work, at a wage 15% less than he was before with double the travelling costs. If it wasn't for his parents he would be out on the street. And the boss? Set up and trading again under an almost indentical trading name. No baked beans on toast for dinner for him and it will be the same for Muller.
Has your friends ex boss committed a crime? Interesting you lump Muller in with your friends ex boss as if what they're doing is corrupt. Maybe your friends ex boss figured a legal way to take care of their own needs first, as they did when setting up in business, at some stage giving your friend a job during better times presumably paying your friend a wage so he wasn't at that time out on the street. It's called life.
Toad said:
And if you bothered to actually read my posts then you would recall I don't work for Saab and haven't done for 8 years.
Thank fk. I mean, sorry yes I overlooked that in my haste to reply to your dumb q&a's.Toad said:
Finally, lets come back to this.
sladealive said:
I'm sure their source is likely one and the same so no news really is it.
I'm sure you do but the reality is they're all quoting from one source by and large. One source picked up by a news agency, to another news agency, and another, and another, and another, which is why Chinese whispers might be more appropriate in the case of Muller and Saab. But hey what do I know.Toad said:
So all these journalists, all over the world, are getting all their information about this, from one source? One evil source, polluting the minds of the public against Saab and brave Mr Muller. It has nothing to do with the product or lack of funding, its one evil source polluting the minds of every motoring journalist on the planet. Who could it be?
The Boss of VAG group? No.
The Boss of Mercedes-Benz? No.
Toad? I wish I was that powerful.
Henry, the mild mannered Janitor? Used that line before but I like it.
I have my own theory.
The Boss of VAG group? No.
The Boss of Mercedes-Benz? No.
Toad? I wish I was that powerful.
Henry, the mild mannered Janitor? Used that line before but I like it.
I have my own theory.
Now if you don't mind Toad I've wasted far too much time being considerate to your contributions despite me finding them pretty immature and not really worthy of a response. So if you will, I've made it pretty clear. Crystal clear. As to where I am. Please, no more. Whilst it was fun to a point, I'm bored now.
Edited by Slade Alive on Wednesday 25th May 01:33
Slade Alive said:
Toad said:
Muller has said on numerous occasions that he loves the company and that he is an enthusiast for the product & and in it for the long term, so why I am I being dumb to suggest this? If he is such a fan, surely he would sell Spyker and pour the money into Saab? If he has long term faith in the product and is su..............................................BORING......
I'm pretty sure whatever BUSINESS Muller is up to he's not going to put his neck in the noose no matter how much he loves a company, any company, this company, and certainly not to appease any dumb suggestion not doing so is immoral. 1.) Won't answer to the logic of my question, just considers it boring. I was inferring that he could make more money from running with only Saab rather than mucking about with Spyker, if he has faith in the product.
Toad said:
Are you seriously suggesting that if Gates & Branson were to invest into Saab they would want to move all the production facilities to their own private islands? Who do you think they are, Blofeld? And you talk about dumb?
No I was being facetious obviously.2.) Ah humour. Sorry missed that. I tend to make my jokes stand out rather than bury them in the middle of considered reply about an important topic.
Toad said:
I would agree that the Chinese market is enormous at the moment
You drew such conclusion all on your own then?3.) Yes
Toad said:
but what makes you think that they will like Saab anymore than the Europeans? Especially as Audi, BMW & Mercedes have had manufacturing, distribution, advertising, and dealer networks in place for some considerable time.
You'd have to take that up with Muller and the Chinese. I'm not the one looking for the answers remember. I'm simply pointing out it is you that seems to have issues following where Muller is going. It is you that is criticising his every move and coming up with negatives as to why YOU think it won't work.
4.) Nope. not just me. Nearly everyone on here and in the motoring press thinks that it won't work.
Toad said:
Right. So just so I'm totally crystal clear on this. You believe that you know better than every single motoring journalist on the planet?
You can be as clear as you like though I never gave such an impression. 5.) Yes you did. You inferred that one website and the information that it gave you supplied more accurate information than the rest of the motoring press put together.
Toad said:
That all their experience in the industry over the past 20 years, the fact that they know CEOs of all the major companies, probably had dinners with them, maybe even know their kids names, these people are all wrong and you are right just because you've looked at a few industry magazines? Industry magazines are full of puff pieces, paid for by the people they feature. Most of them would never dream of publishing any negative articles as that way the pieces and therefore the advertising and therefore the money would dry up. If you had any knowledge of the motor trade, you would know that there is nothing CEOs of these companies like doing more than telling everyone how wonderful they are.
Unfortunate you take such a cynical view. I did try to point out there are more intellectual sources, my opinion, of information available was all. Unfortunately you seem to have a rather corrupt view of how such sources gather their information. Few journalists from your fancied high street brands ever get to sit down with industry exec's. And I'm pretty sure the publications I pointed you toward don't actually sell copy to most if any CEO's and industry exec's but rather give them free subscription. What is printed is certainly not CEO's telling how wonderful they or the companies they represent are. That Toad is a rather clouded and pretty immature view if that's what you really believe.6.) Better to be immatue than to be totally naive as to how the world of business, manufacturering and commerce actual work. But unless those magazines are a registered charity then they have to sell copies to someone.
Toad said:
Ok then, name names. If there is no conflict of interest, name names. Who is this wonderful person in China who knows all? I've told you where I get my information, you tell us where you're getting yours. Name names.
Gathering second hand information off the web then putting your spin on it here, your spin being the main bone of contention I have with your commentary all through this topic. My information is private to me thank you. My source is confident is all I have said. You can spin that up any way you wish. If it pleases, you can exaggerate by suggesting my source is wonderful and knows all. I didn't say such though. You did.[b]7.) Again you claimed back in the thread that you knew someone who said that what was happening was all standard Chinese business practice and that everything with the deal was fine. As you aren't prepared to
name names or even give a vague clue as to who they might be your source is irrelevent. It could be your mothers brothers sisters boyfriend for all we know, where as I'm quoting respected business websites and even a Saab fan site. I would suspect that it is mearly an article from one of those specialist trade magazines you are so keen on.[/b]
Toad said:
You recite Mullers party line.
Where? I don't know the guy. He could be the biggest jerk walking for all I care.
8.) At least you are now admiting that he might not the worlds best business brain. Good. You're making progress.
Toad said:
You won't take the view that anyone else can possibly have another outlook on current events. So what does that make you other than a mouthpiece for Muller?
Someone who doesn't rehash web news with personal spin?9.) So if, as you claim you have no link to Saab or Muller and therefore no extra information aren't you doing exactly the same thing? Your opinion, my opinion, we both don't have all the facts. Its just that my information would appear to come from more reliable sources than my uncles nephews aunt once went to Shanghai or a magazine group that exists to print ego stroking stories for motor trade CEOs.
Toad said:
If he was that smart, I wouldn't be able to make predictions about what he is about to do.
You really are full of self belief aren't you. Unbelievable. 10.) On this topic? Yep.
Toad said:
There is a difference between playing poker and deliberatly misleading the very people you need on board, the suppliers and lets face it, the general public who might actually buy the cars. If you remember, there is even some debate as to if he has broken Chinese business law as well. The Youngman corporation certainly seem to think he has.
You really have no idea what Muller has said, told, explained, organised with anybody. Have you a direct quote from these Saab supplying companies? Can you show Muller mislead the public, or was it just the spin you're spinning after reading it on the web? Where is this debate regarding broken Chinese business law? Or is that something you also read on the web?11.) All news websites that I have quoted from are just electronic versions of newpapers or magazines. As has been proved by the superjunction issue in the UK at the moment, they can't just print rubbish. They are printing checked and verified stories which previously you would have picked up at the newsagents. You seem to believe that everything on the web is just gossip but only when it applies to information that disagrees with your view. Again, all the information is either out there on the web or even linked back in this thread with named sources.
toad said:
As I said before, Muller will still be a millionaire at the end of this, he won't be struggling to pay his mortgage.
So what?12.) The reason why I'm annoyed about this, is that Muller is just playing. He hasn't got enough money to run Saab properly but thought by borrowing European taxpayers money he could become a major player. Saab have always needed a major player to take them over, not just to become a play thing of people who won't be affected when it all goes wrong.
Toad said:
I have another friend who worked for a printing company that went into administration late last year & he was made redundant. He has only just found work, at a wage 15% less than he was before with double the travelling costs. If it wasn't for his parents he would be out on the street. And the boss? Set up and trading again under an almost indentical trading name. No baked beans on toast for dinner for him and it will be the same for Muller.
Has your friends ex boss committed a crime? Interesting you lump Muller in with your friends ex boss as if what they're doing is corrupt. Maybe your friends ex boss figured a legal way to take care of their own needs first, as they did when setting up in business, at some stage giving your friend a job during better times presumably paying your friend a wage so he wasn't at that time out on the street. It's called life.
13.) No of course he hasn't and my friend has accepted his fate. But my friends ex-boss didn't borrow huge amounts of money from the European taxpayer to play at trying to run a car company which employs many thousands of people worldwide and if it goes belly up will rid Europe of another major manufacturering companies.
Toad said:
And if you bothered to actually read my posts then you would recall I don't work for Saab and haven't done for 8 years.
Thank fk. I mean, sorry yes I overlooked that in my haste to reply to your dumb q&a's.14.) And as we can see from the quality of some your replies perhaps thats something you want to think about in the future.
Toad said:
Finally, lets come back to this.
sladealive said:
I'm sure their source is likely one and the same so no news really is it.
I'm sure you do but the reality is they're all quoting from one source by and large. One source picked up by a news agency, to another news agency, and another, and another, and another, which is why Chinese whispers might be more appropriate in the case of Muller and Saab. But hey what do I know.Toad said:
So all these journalists, all over the world, are getting all their information about this, from one source? One evil source, polluting the minds of the public against Saab and brave Mr Muller. It has nothing to do with the product or lack of funding, its one evil source polluting the minds of every motoring journalist on the planet. Who could it be?
The Boss of VAG group? No.
The Boss of Mercedes-Benz? No.
Toad? I wish I was that powerful.
Henry, the mild mannered Janitor? Used that line before but I like it.
I have my own theory.
The Boss of VAG group? No.
The Boss of Mercedes-Benz? No.
Toad? I wish I was that powerful.
Henry, the mild mannered Janitor? Used that line before but I like it.
I have my own theory.
15.) Well not enough to see a joke but enough to do some selected editing.
Now if you don't mind Toad I've wasted far too much time being considerate to your contributions despite me finding them pretty immature and not really worthy of a response. So if you will, I've made it pretty clear. Crystal clear. As to where I am. Please, no more. Whilst it was fun to a point, I'm bored now.
Edited by Slade Alive on Wednesday 25th May 01:33
At the moment it all boils down to a simple statement.
Saab aren't selling enough cars & haven't been for the last 20 years. The general public prefer other makes of car as the worldwide sales figures prove and no longer feel Saab are revelent to the market place. Saab have no money left in the bank to either advertise their existence or launch any new models that might sell. A retail business basically works by people buying your product, you take a profit to develop new product and pay yourself a wage, you introduce new product, it sells etc. Saab is not performing to that model at the moment or even getting anywhere near. They need investment running into billions to help get them out of this mess. Muller has been trying to find this investment since he took over the company. This he hasn't been able to do and his actions in running round offering it anyone who has any money except wonga.com, has not helped the companies already damaged image.
If you seriously believe that this isn't the case then you are drifting into the realms of pure delusion.
However, again as I mentioned before if I am wrong in a years time & Saab are still here, I will apolgise, I'm still waiting to hear if you will do the same thing if Saab does fail. But I'm guessing if that does happen, you will think its just the internets fault and nothing to do with Mullers desperate and embarassing efforts or a product that has been neglected, badly managed & appallingly marketed for the last 20 years.
Bye Swade I'd like to say its been fun. I'd like to say that.... but I can't.
Edited by The Hypno-Toad on Wednesday 25th May 10:13
With regards to Delbox's post the simple fact is the majority of the retail motor trade are not overly interested in cars and certainly not in the Saab brand.
When/if Saab fold it will not be until it is splashed over the news or papers that most people will even notice and only then will values drop off. In saying that I really think he has made the right decision anyway. Personally I feel Muller is another false prophet and his failings far out weigh his side show bravado. His mistakes are all over the media and I think he is a joke
.
Regardless of what either Toad or Slade think the fact is that Saab is not selling enough cars. Yes the Chinese deal may well be the lifeline but other than that it looks bleak. Over the last 4 days it has been very quiet and just for my own curiosity, I have gone out of my way to see what other people in Saab dealers are thinking. I deliberately asked around 30 people from various garages in various positions (management, sales, parts and service) to see if they would spend their own money on a new or nearly new Saab. No one would.
So after 23 years I am leaving the fold to start work at another franchise. This has been a very hard decision to come to and not one I took at all lightly. The issue that affected my decision the most was that if I were in the market to buy a car now there is simply no chance it would be a Saab. The 95 is too big, too expensive and just about average. The 93 is just way behind the competitors and I have no faith in the 94X breaking records. I also think that because Saab are on such a ridiculously tight budget that any new product (if it ever comes) will also be flawed. It is only when one actually starts trying the oppositions products that you realise how far behind Saab lag. The Skoda Superb is more than a match for the 95 and even the New Passat makes the 93 look positively prehistoric. As hard as a decision it has been I do feel a weight has been lifted off my back.
When you look at dealers such as Gloucester Saab and Williams in the South West of the UK, you can see how much dealers have lost confidence. Now that they have left the fold, what was Gloucester Saab are now selling far more Hyundai's, with more profit than they could ever have done with Saab, as are Williams with Mazda. A major south coast Saab dealer sold 11 new car this month and they were among the top performers in the UK!!
From actually being at the coal face rather than reading magazines I would suggest the Toad is far closer to the truth in his observations than Slade.
When/if Saab fold it will not be until it is splashed over the news or papers that most people will even notice and only then will values drop off. In saying that I really think he has made the right decision anyway. Personally I feel Muller is another false prophet and his failings far out weigh his side show bravado. His mistakes are all over the media and I think he is a joke
.
Regardless of what either Toad or Slade think the fact is that Saab is not selling enough cars. Yes the Chinese deal may well be the lifeline but other than that it looks bleak. Over the last 4 days it has been very quiet and just for my own curiosity, I have gone out of my way to see what other people in Saab dealers are thinking. I deliberately asked around 30 people from various garages in various positions (management, sales, parts and service) to see if they would spend their own money on a new or nearly new Saab. No one would.
So after 23 years I am leaving the fold to start work at another franchise. This has been a very hard decision to come to and not one I took at all lightly. The issue that affected my decision the most was that if I were in the market to buy a car now there is simply no chance it would be a Saab. The 95 is too big, too expensive and just about average. The 93 is just way behind the competitors and I have no faith in the 94X breaking records. I also think that because Saab are on such a ridiculously tight budget that any new product (if it ever comes) will also be flawed. It is only when one actually starts trying the oppositions products that you realise how far behind Saab lag. The Skoda Superb is more than a match for the 95 and even the New Passat makes the 93 look positively prehistoric. As hard as a decision it has been I do feel a weight has been lifted off my back.
When you look at dealers such as Gloucester Saab and Williams in the South West of the UK, you can see how much dealers have lost confidence. Now that they have left the fold, what was Gloucester Saab are now selling far more Hyundai's, with more profit than they could ever have done with Saab, as are Williams with Mazda. A major south coast Saab dealer sold 11 new car this month and they were among the top performers in the UK!!
From actually being at the coal face rather than reading magazines I would suggest the Toad is far closer to the truth in his observations than Slade.
gawdlpus said:
With regards to Delbox's post the simple fact is the majority of the retail motor trade are not overly interested in cars and certainly not in the Saab brand.
When/if Saab fold it will not be until it is splashed over the news or papers that most people will even notice and only then will values drop off. In saying that I really think he has made the right decision anyway. Personally I feel Muller is another false prophet and his failings far out weigh his side show bravado. His mistakes are all over the media and I think he is a joke
.
Regardless of what either Toad or Slade think the fact is that Saab is not selling enough cars. Yes the Chinese deal may well be the lifeline but other than that it looks bleak. Over the last 4 days it has been very quiet and just for my own curiosity, I have gone out of my way to see what other people in Saab dealers are thinking. I deliberately asked around 30 people from various garages in various positions (management, sales, parts and service) to see if they would spend their own money on a new or nearly new Saab. No one would.
So after 23 years I am leaving the fold to start work at another franchise. This has been a very hard decision to come to and not one I took at all lightly. The issue that affected my decision the most was that if I were in the market to buy a car now there is simply no chance it would be a Saab. The 95 is too big, too expensive and just about average. The 93 is just way behind the competitors and I have no faith in the 94X breaking records. I also think that because Saab are on such a ridiculously tight budget that any new product (if it ever comes) will also be flawed. It is only when one actually starts trying the oppositions products that you realise how far behind Saab lag. The Skoda Superb is more than a match for the 95 and even the New Passat makes the 93 look positively prehistoric. As hard as a decision it has been I do feel a weight has been lifted off my back.
When you look at dealers such as Gloucester Saab and Williams in the South West of the UK, you can see how much dealers have lost confidence. Now that they have left the fold, what was Gloucester Saab are now selling far more Hyundai's, with more profit than they could ever have done with Saab, as are Williams with Mazda. A major south coast Saab dealer sold 11 new car this month and they were among the top performers in the UK!!
From actually being at the coal face rather than reading magazines I would suggest the Toad is far closer to the truth in his observations than Slade.
Lost confidence is another word for Hyundai paying better margins due to the cars being manufactured in Korea at a lower cost so the margin of profit is greater. It has nothing to do with the brand. I guess dealers will shift anything as long as it makes a profit. Hyundai and Kia are driving hard in to the market place with eco cars that the main manufacturers didnt do until it was too late. In Sweden..(the actual coal face!!) Hyundai and Kia are selling like hot cakes due to taxation laws brought in by the Swedish government. Helping their own brands I dont think so. In the UK we have also done a new trade deal with Korea which will mean even cheaper products or even more profit for dealers… So SAAB being in trouble is nothing to do with lack of confidence it is pure profit…The SAAB dealer in Sussex funnily went over to Hyundai as well.When/if Saab fold it will not be until it is splashed over the news or papers that most people will even notice and only then will values drop off. In saying that I really think he has made the right decision anyway. Personally I feel Muller is another false prophet and his failings far out weigh his side show bravado. His mistakes are all over the media and I think he is a joke
.
Regardless of what either Toad or Slade think the fact is that Saab is not selling enough cars. Yes the Chinese deal may well be the lifeline but other than that it looks bleak. Over the last 4 days it has been very quiet and just for my own curiosity, I have gone out of my way to see what other people in Saab dealers are thinking. I deliberately asked around 30 people from various garages in various positions (management, sales, parts and service) to see if they would spend their own money on a new or nearly new Saab. No one would.
So after 23 years I am leaving the fold to start work at another franchise. This has been a very hard decision to come to and not one I took at all lightly. The issue that affected my decision the most was that if I were in the market to buy a car now there is simply no chance it would be a Saab. The 95 is too big, too expensive and just about average. The 93 is just way behind the competitors and I have no faith in the 94X breaking records. I also think that because Saab are on such a ridiculously tight budget that any new product (if it ever comes) will also be flawed. It is only when one actually starts trying the oppositions products that you realise how far behind Saab lag. The Skoda Superb is more than a match for the 95 and even the New Passat makes the 93 look positively prehistoric. As hard as a decision it has been I do feel a weight has been lifted off my back.
When you look at dealers such as Gloucester Saab and Williams in the South West of the UK, you can see how much dealers have lost confidence. Now that they have left the fold, what was Gloucester Saab are now selling far more Hyundai's, with more profit than they could ever have done with Saab, as are Williams with Mazda. A major south coast Saab dealer sold 11 new car this month and they were among the top performers in the UK!!
From actually being at the coal face rather than reading magazines I would suggest the Toad is far closer to the truth in his observations than Slade.
The SAAB demise is due to lack lustre products with no image driver (a common problem with Swedish brands - as showing off is not a Swedish trait they would rather wear sack cloth than a nice jacket)
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