Electric cars, does everyone really think they are amazing.
Discussion
budgie smuggler said:
The Article said:
Fun fact: many high-performance cars cross the quarter mile line faster when towed by a Model X than they do on their own four wheels.
Fun experiment:
Load an Alpha Romeo 4C on a trailer
Hook that trailer up to a Model X.
Line up against another Alpha Romeo on its own feet.
Race said Alpha Romeo in a quarter mile.
Show Alpha Romeo who’s boss.
In your 6,000 lb SUV. While towing its twin brother.
That's funny. And that isn't even the fast one any more...Fun experiment:
Load an Alpha Romeo 4C on a trailer
Hook that trailer up to a Model X.
Line up against another Alpha Romeo on its own feet.
Race said Alpha Romeo in a quarter mile.
Show Alpha Romeo who’s boss.
In your 6,000 lb SUV. While towing its twin brother.
Baldchap said:
budgie smuggler said:
The Article said:
Fun fact: many high-performance cars cross the quarter mile line faster when towed by a Model X than they do on their own four wheels.
Fun experiment:
Load an Alpha Romeo 4C on a trailer
Hook that trailer up to a Model X.
Line up against another Alpha Romeo on its own feet.
Race said Alpha Romeo in a quarter mile.
Show Alpha Romeo who’s boss.
In your 6,000 lb SUV. While towing its twin brother.
That's funny. And that isn't even the fast one any more...Fun experiment:
Load an Alpha Romeo 4C on a trailer
Hook that trailer up to a Model X.
Line up against another Alpha Romeo on its own feet.
Race said Alpha Romeo in a quarter mile.
Show Alpha Romeo who’s boss.
In your 6,000 lb SUV. While towing its twin brother.
Baldchap said:
Range anxiety really isn't a thing, based on my 12 months of Tesla ownership. It'll do almost 300 miles to a 'tank' and recharge to 200 in under 20 minutes - no idea where the 'sitting about for hours waiting for it to charge' bit comes from other than out of peoples' bottoms. It really isn't an issue. As stated above, where it really does a great job is the fact it's fully charged every morning - though we very rarely cover 300 miles in a stint anyway and I'd imagine very few of us do. The average commute in the UK is 8.5 miles - 17 per day. EVs are perfect for this sort of usage, however, the infrastructure is there NOW to support longer journeys.
It never ceases to amaze me that those of us who *OWN* and *DRIVE* and *HAVE EXPERIENCE OF* electric vehicles are saying they work, yet there is a select group who are absolutely obsessed with telling us how inconvenient our lives are and how our EVs don't work for us, when the fact is they are a huge convenience because you almost never need to do anything bar plug it in at home when you park up. Vampiric battery drain isn't an issue (minuscule), nor is charger availability or duration when out and about, and the infrastructure is growing every day so will only get better and better. I know several Tesla owners who are already on their second Tesla, so awful is the ownership experience.
I do accept that the early adopters do face the risk of being Betamax buyers, however, given how good the vehicles are NOW, I don't really see it myself, even if better EVs appear in the future (which they almost certainly will). I've got a big, fast, well-equipped family bus - it will always be precisely that even if better big, fast family buses become available. We did initially discuss leasing or PCPing our Tesla for precisely this reason, but by the time you'd done the maths over four years, it only needs to be worth £20k at four years old to break even, and I'm confident it will be (even if just for the batteries and motors). If it's not worth anything when I come to replace, it's not, so be it - cars are rarely an investment. Early adopters like us may pay over the odds, but it means that the technology gets bedded in and filters down to everyone else. I'm not a greeny, I simply wanted a six-seater that was fast enough and not abysmal in every regard like most people carries are. I've got one and I'm very happy with it. It isn't perfect, but very few cars are.
They said the same when people suggested replacing horses....
With regards to charging It never ceases to amaze me that those of us who *OWN* and *DRIVE* and *HAVE EXPERIENCE OF* electric vehicles are saying they work, yet there is a select group who are absolutely obsessed with telling us how inconvenient our lives are and how our EVs don't work for us, when the fact is they are a huge convenience because you almost never need to do anything bar plug it in at home when you park up. Vampiric battery drain isn't an issue (minuscule), nor is charger availability or duration when out and about, and the infrastructure is growing every day so will only get better and better. I know several Tesla owners who are already on their second Tesla, so awful is the ownership experience.
I do accept that the early adopters do face the risk of being Betamax buyers, however, given how good the vehicles are NOW, I don't really see it myself, even if better EVs appear in the future (which they almost certainly will). I've got a big, fast, well-equipped family bus - it will always be precisely that even if better big, fast family buses become available. We did initially discuss leasing or PCPing our Tesla for precisely this reason, but by the time you'd done the maths over four years, it only needs to be worth £20k at four years old to break even, and I'm confident it will be (even if just for the batteries and motors). If it's not worth anything when I come to replace, it's not, so be it - cars are rarely an investment. Early adopters like us may pay over the odds, but it means that the technology gets bedded in and filters down to everyone else. I'm not a greeny, I simply wanted a six-seater that was fast enough and not abysmal in every regard like most people carries are. I've got one and I'm very happy with it. It isn't perfect, but very few cars are.
They said the same when people suggested replacing horses....
Currently to fill up a tank of fuel is 2mins.
You state it’s 20mins to charge to 200miles - however if you are in a queue then it’s 20mins+paying time x all the cars in front of you. As these become more and more popular he issue is you arrive ready to fill up and oh s
t 4 Cars deep on each charge point. It’s countered by the near 300mile range granted /I’ve only ever driven 260odd miles without stopping and now I tend to go for a toilet break/stretch the legs every 100-120miles.
Lesser cars than Tesla which most people couldn’t possibly afford then Range is vastly less. Take the mk1 i3 -70 mike range...
Welshbeef said:
With regards to charging
Currently to fill up a tank of fuel is 2mins.
You state it’s 20mins to charge to 200miles - however if you are in a queue then it’s 20mins+paying time x all the cars in front of you. As these become more and more popular he issue is you arrive ready to fill up and oh st 4 Cars deep on each charge point.
It’s countered by the near 300mile range granted /I’ve only ever driven 260odd miles without stopping and now I tend to go for a toilet break/stretch the legs every 100-120miles.
Lesser cars than Tesla which most people couldn’t possibly afford then Range is vastly less. Take the mk1 i3 -70 mike range...
I don't think the full process of filling up with fuel has EVER taken just 2 minutes, has it? Currently to fill up a tank of fuel is 2mins.
You state it’s 20mins to charge to 200miles - however if you are in a queue then it’s 20mins+paying time x all the cars in front of you. As these become more and more popular he issue is you arrive ready to fill up and oh s
t 4 Cars deep on each charge point. It’s countered by the near 300mile range granted /I’ve only ever driven 260odd miles without stopping and now I tend to go for a toilet break/stretch the legs every 100-120miles.
Lesser cars than Tesla which most people couldn’t possibly afford then Range is vastly less. Take the mk1 i3 -70 mike range...
Tesla superchargers allow you to see how many points vs how many available points in real time anywhere in the country and in the 18 months of owning an i3 i have NEVER had to queue for a charging point.
I walk out of my house most mornings and wave to my neighbours, as they shiver in the cold or rain, waiting for their windscreen to demist their cabin to warm, or frantically scraping ice off their car, as they breath in the myriad of toxic fumes from there idling cars (cats not lit off due to the cold start), whilst the clatter of diesel fills the air all around.
And i walk straight past them, and get into my warm, demisted, silent and zero tailpipe emissions EV, and drive off, able to use full power immediately and smoothly (no eng/trans to warm up), then the car out accelerates most cars on the road, and at the same time does on average for me over 2 years 196 mpg (energy equivalent, cost equivalency is nearly 300 mpg), i glide smoothly and effortlessly through traffic, no shunting or stopping, one pedal driving, and added to which my i3 has actually appreciated over those two years.
So yeah, EV's, they'll never catch on.........
And i walk straight past them, and get into my warm, demisted, silent and zero tailpipe emissions EV, and drive off, able to use full power immediately and smoothly (no eng/trans to warm up), then the car out accelerates most cars on the road, and at the same time does on average for me over 2 years 196 mpg (energy equivalent, cost equivalency is nearly 300 mpg), i glide smoothly and effortlessly through traffic, no shunting or stopping, one pedal driving, and added to which my i3 has actually appreciated over those two years.
So yeah, EV's, they'll never catch on.........
Baldchap said:
It never ceases to amaze me that those of us who *OWN* and *DRIVE* and *HAVE EXPERIENCE OF* electric vehicles are saying they work, yet there is a select group who are absolutely obsessed with telling us how inconvenient our lives are and how our EVs don't work for us, when the fact is they are a huge convenience because you almost never need to do anything bar plug it in at home when you park up. Vampiric battery drain isn't an issue (minuscule), nor is charger availability or duration when out and about, and the infrastructure is growing every day so will only get better and better. I know several Tesla owners who are already on their second Tesla, so awful is the ownership experience.
Indeed. The crappy 24Kw leaf clearly didn’t get me to work and back for the last 6k miles and through the coldest winter for a good few years. Clearly I froze to death every morning because the heat pump is rubbish, and I absolutely did not step into a pre heated defrosted car and drive to work in a t-shirt. And it didn’t do any of this at less than 3p a mile in electricity.
I get it. If you can only have one car and have no off road parking, an EV isn’t going to work for you.
If you have a 100mile commute and no charging at work, it’s not going to work for you.
If you frequently do big motorway miles, it’s not going to work for you.
Buy the tool appropriate for the job.
As a second car, and purely to do the commute to work, the cheap nissan has been excellent. It doesn’t handle, and it runs out of shove over 50mph, but it’s quiet and comfortable for a very dull daily drive.
Anything with a real world range of 200 miles very much could be an only car (presuming you can charge it overnight).
The only thing that would worry me would be getting home, plugging in to charge and then getting the phone call saying “can you get to ‘x’ as fast as possible”.
Welshbeef said:
With regards to charging
Currently to fill up a tank of fuel is 2mins.
You state it’s 20mins to charge to 200miles - however if you are in a queue then it’s 20mins+paying time x all the cars in front of you. As these become more and more popular he issue is you arrive ready to fill up and oh st 4 Cars deep on each charge point.
It’s countered by the near 300mile range granted /I’ve only ever driven 260odd miles without stopping and now I tend to go for a toilet break/stretch the legs every 100-120miles.
Lesser cars than Tesla which most people couldn’t possibly afford then Range is vastly less. Take the mk1 i3 -70 mike range...
I agree.Currently to fill up a tank of fuel is 2mins.
You state it’s 20mins to charge to 200miles - however if you are in a queue then it’s 20mins+paying time x all the cars in front of you. As these become more and more popular he issue is you arrive ready to fill up and oh s
t 4 Cars deep on each charge point. It’s countered by the near 300mile range granted /I’ve only ever driven 260odd miles without stopping and now I tend to go for a toilet break/stretch the legs every 100-120miles.
Lesser cars than Tesla which most people couldn’t possibly afford then Range is vastly less. Take the mk1 i3 -70 mike range...
Could add
It isn't getting better and better for Tesla owners, they used to charge for free, now they have to pay to supercharge (where supercharge means filling with 'fuel' for want of a better term at a rate that is still more than 10 times slower than filling with petrol / diesel / LPG).
If you drive the Tesla 300 miles and then charge it at home it won't fully charge overnight, to fully charge in that length of time you need a faster charger such as a supercharger which you haven't got at home.
Another EVer talking about most people drive 17 miles per day (which would be 119 miles per week) again. So why be concerned about 'fuel savings' anyway when could drive a 20mpg V8 119 miles per week and only spend £30 on petrol... And you spent how much on an EV? To enjoy what advantage over an ice? Presumably EVers who commute 17 miles per day also drive 17 miles per day on days off work?
budgie smuggler said:
SimonYorkshire said:
Not that he'd ever buy an EV (for any purpose) but can anyone suggest an EV that could do the job and not see him needing to recharge for several hours every 50 miles (not that he'd find a charger every 50 miles)?
Model XEdited by SimonYorkshire on Wednesday 26th September 11:24
https://electrek.co/2016/03/21/tesla-drag-race-alf...
The vid you linked to is old news. I think you'd find the Alfa was chosen for this 'test' / 'promotion' specifically because it is a lightweight 1.7 litre sports car, it doesn't have a lot of power and is only fast in the first place because it is so light. You'd also find that it would be far easier to produce a list of ice vehicles that could outdrag an EV whilst towing an EV than to produce a list of EVs that could outdrag ice cars whilst towing an ice car. And then at the end of any test the ice car could continue a journey whereas the EV might have flattened it's battery on the drag strip (or overheated it's battery).
If speed is of any concern EVs lose by default anyway. Range figures quoted for EVs are at slow speeds, EV range reduces drastically with speed. Then, on any journey that exceeds EV range the EVers has the far longer wait for 'refuelling'. Almost any ice vehicle could beat almost any EV in any race where distance is long enough.
Edited by SimonYorkshire on Wednesday 26th September 15:02
Max_Torque said:
I walk out of my house most mornings and wave to my neighbours, as they shiver in the cold or rain, waiting for their windscreen to demist their cabin to warm, or frantically scraping ice off their car, as they breath in the myriad of toxic fumes from there idling cars (cats not lit off due to the cold start), whilst the clatter of diesel fills
Do you live at the North Pole?Can't remember the last time I came out to find an iced over windscreen. Ford have doing screen warmers for years if you do find it a massive problem. Which it isn't for most of the World.
RJG46 said:
Max_Torque said:
I walk out of my house most mornings and wave to my neighbours, as they shiver in the cold or rain, waiting for their windscreen to demist their cabin to warm, or frantically scraping ice off their car, as they breath in the myriad of toxic fumes from there idling cars (cats not lit off due to the cold start), whilst the clatter of diesel fills
Do you live at the North Pole?Can't remember the last time I came out to find an iced over windscreen. Ford have doing screen warmers for years if you do find it a massive problem. Which it isn't for most of the World
I find the car that heats the interior, windows, seats and steering wheel a bit more convenient to come out to than the one that sits there doing nothing
RJG46 said:
Do you live at the North Pole?
Can't remember the last time I came out to find an iced over windscreen. Ford have doing screen warmers for years if you do find it a massive problem. Which it isn't for most of the World.
Leaving cars littered around outside is pretty council anyway. I get into a nice warm car (because it is in a nice warm garage), and by the time I’m at the end of the drive, the car is warm enough to drive properly. I have no idea what “neighbours” do, I don’t have any to look at. Can't remember the last time I came out to find an iced over windscreen. Ford have doing screen warmers for years if you do find it a massive problem. Which it isn't for most of the World.
I live in a city of around 300,000 residents. A significant proportion of those are car owners. A significant proportion of those do not have driveways or garages, especially in the city centre. The rest use on street parking. At last count the city had 22 charge points, of which fewer than half were free and only then if you were a season ticket holder of the respective car park. There were a few experiments with using lampposts as charging outlets but given the free-for-all nature of on street parking they did not prove viable or practical.
We're still a long, long way from discarding the convenience and usability of the internal combustion engine. The switchover won't happen during my lifetime and I'd be surprised if it happens with any great saturation during my daughter's.
We're still a long, long way from discarding the convenience and usability of the internal combustion engine. The switchover won't happen during my lifetime and I'd be surprised if it happens with any great saturation during my daughter's.
PixelpeepS3 said:
I don't think the full process of filling up with fuel has EVER taken just 2 minutes, has it?
Tesla superchargers allow you to see how many points vs how many available points in real time anywhere in the country and in the 18 months of owning an i3 i have NEVER had to queue for a charging point.
I’m assuming the 20min time is from you plugging in the charger which is where my 2mins came from to deliver 66ltrs (I’ve a large tank 72ltrs max) some cars only have max 40-45ltrs so 2mins is ample to deliver that quantity. Tesla superchargers allow you to see how many points vs how many available points in real time anywhere in the country and in the 18 months of owning an i3 i have NEVER had to queue for a charging point.
If you’ve got he app that tells you how Bush chargers are itsat that point in time so you might see he closest one heck it’s 90mins wait I’ll go to the next one - BUt so would everyone else wanting to top up and you’d face a similar issue.
Volume of EV cars is increasing now decreasing and the rate of increasing supercharger stations isn’t at the same pace that’s the crux of it.
Note another poster stated unless you have a home supercharger which no one does no one can then really leave the house fully charged so 300mile Range isn’t really true
Rather than theoretically waffling on about this, I actually did the maths.
I drive the Merc to work for a few months. It’s a relatively short commute, but it’s also a thumping great big V8.
So, it was about 2 tanks of fuel a month. Or, approximately £160 quid (depending on fuel costs).
Before we even start to talk about depreciation or running costs (which are substantial), let’s stick with pure fuel costing. 160 quid a month.
I PCP’d a lightly used leaf for £135 a month. It’s costing me 3p a mile. So the 600 mile monthly commute is less than 20 quid.
On pure fuel costs, it’s cheaper for me to rent and charge an entirely seperate car than drive the existing one. And now we have an extra car available to us. And looking at second hand prices, I might make some money at the end of the pcp.
(For the record, I smoked about in £200 of knackered Yaris until I was sure I liked the job, then took a crappy leaf on for the commute).
No, I don’t want an lpg tank in the back of my nice Mercedes.
Yes, I reckon the windscreen needed defrosting 60% of the time at 7am last winter.
I drive the Merc to work for a few months. It’s a relatively short commute, but it’s also a thumping great big V8.
So, it was about 2 tanks of fuel a month. Or, approximately £160 quid (depending on fuel costs).
Before we even start to talk about depreciation or running costs (which are substantial), let’s stick with pure fuel costing. 160 quid a month.
I PCP’d a lightly used leaf for £135 a month. It’s costing me 3p a mile. So the 600 mile monthly commute is less than 20 quid.
On pure fuel costs, it’s cheaper for me to rent and charge an entirely seperate car than drive the existing one. And now we have an extra car available to us. And looking at second hand prices, I might make some money at the end of the pcp.
(For the record, I smoked about in £200 of knackered Yaris until I was sure I liked the job, then took a crappy leaf on for the commute).
No, I don’t want an lpg tank in the back of my nice Mercedes.
Yes, I reckon the windscreen needed defrosting 60% of the time at 7am last winter.
Cold said:
I live in a city of around 300,000 residents. A significant proportion of those are car owners. A significant proportion of those do not have driveways or garages, especially in the city centre. The rest use on street parking. At last count the city had 22 charge points, of which fewer than half were free and only then if you were a season ticket holder of the respective car park. There were a few experiments with using lampposts as charging outlets but given the free-for-all nature of on street parking they did not prove viable or practical.
We're still a long, long way from discarding the convenience and usability of the internal combustion engine. The switchover won't happen during my lifetime and I'd be surprised if it happens with any great saturation during my daughter's.
in just 4 years the UK has gone from around 10,000 plug in cars (Q1 2014) being registered to 150,000 in Q1 of 2018.We're still a long, long way from discarding the convenience and usability of the internal combustion engine. The switchover won't happen during my lifetime and I'd be surprised if it happens with any great saturation during my daughter's.
this is now, what will it be like in another 4 years? - another 1500% increase? (hope my math hasn't let me down there... )
rxe said:
RJG46 said:
Do you live at the North Pole?
Can't remember the last time I came out to find an iced over windscreen. Ford have doing screen warmers for years if you do find it a massive problem. Which it isn't for most of the World.
Leaving cars littered around outside is pretty council anyway. I get into a nice warm car (because it is in a nice warm garage), and by the time I’m at the end of the drive, the car is warm enough to drive properly. I have no idea what “neighbours” do, I don’t have any to look at. Can't remember the last time I came out to find an iced over windscreen. Ford have doing screen warmers for years if you do find it a massive problem. Which it isn't for most of the World.
PixelpeepS3 said:
in just 4 years the UK has gone from around 10,000 plug in cars (Q1 2014) being registered to 150,000 in Q1 of 2018.
this is now, what will it be like in another 4 years? - another 1500% increase? (hope my math hasn't let me down there... )
Who knows? We could well have already reached saturation of those for who feel electric cars are viable for them.this is now, what will it be like in another 4 years? - another 1500% increase? (hope my math hasn't let me down there... )
SimonYorkshire said:
If you drive the Tesla 300 miles and then charge it at home it won't fully charge overnight, to fully charge in that length of time you need a faster charger such as a supercharger which you haven't got at home.
Again. False. Ours charges at 46 miles per hour on average. Full charge is 3 hours ish.Seriously dude, give it up. You're slagging off something that you clearly have absolutely no knowledge of whatsoever. There's one in my garage right now. Which of us is more likely to know what living with them is really like?
Welshbeef said:
I’m assuming the 20min time is from you plugging in the charger which is where my 2mins came from to deliver 66ltrs (I’ve a large tank 72ltrs max) some cars only have max 40-45ltrs so 2mins is ample to deliver that quantity.
If you’ve got he app that tells you how Bush chargers are itsat that point in time so you might see he closest one heck it’s 90mins wait I’ll go to the next one - BUt so would everyone else wanting to top up and you’d face a similar issue.
Volume of EV cars is increasing now decreasing and the rate of increasing supercharger stations isn’t at the same pace that’s the crux of it.
Note another poster stated unless you have a home supercharger which no one does no one can then really leave the house fully charged so 300mile Range isn’t really true
Based on my actual 18 month experience of owning an i3 and an Audi S3 i can state (with confidence) the following:If you’ve got he app that tells you how Bush chargers are itsat that point in time so you might see he closest one heck it’s 90mins wait I’ll go to the next one - BUt so would everyone else wanting to top up and you’d face a similar issue.
Volume of EV cars is increasing now decreasing and the rate of increasing supercharger stations isn’t at the same pace that’s the crux of it.
Note another poster stated unless you have a home supercharger which no one does no one can then really leave the house fully charged so 300mile Range isn’t really true
- I have NEVER had to queue for a charging point.
- The network is expanding as uptake is (around 600 new charging points are being installed per month (https://www.zap-map.com/statistics/)
- I frequently have to queue for fuel in the S3
- I frequently have to spend longer waiting for people to do their weekly shopping in a tiny petrol station 'supermarket' before i can a) get to the pump or
b) pay for the fuel
- Our BMW on the 7.7kw home charger (single phase, nothing fancy) it goes from flat to full in 4 hours (it is very rarely fully flat)
- We are getting rid of the S3 at the end of September and ordering a new Tesla 75d. the tesla is quicker, quieter, feels far more premium and bigger!
on a last note. On that same 7.7kw home charger the 75D takes 9 hours to fully charge from flat. 304 miles.
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