Flemke - Is this your McLaren? (Vol 5)
Discussion
flemke said:
1560 said:
https://www.motor1.com/news/181895/mclaren-bp23-hy...
shouldn't all McLarens have the drivers-seat in the middle???
Good question.shouldn't all McLarens have the drivers-seat in the middle???
One way of looking at it is that perhaps all modern McLarens should have a three-seat configuration/driver in the centre. The other way of looking at it might be that, at least for the forthcoming GT ("BP23"), the central driving position is just a gimmick that gives McLaren an excuse to charge a lot more for or maybe offer a lot more in a car that either makes no sense as a GT or makes no sense to position the driver in the center indeed because it is GT, not a true sports car.
In the light of McLaren Automotive's goal of selling ~5,000 cars/year, which perforce requires a lot of different markets and a lot of different sorts of buyers, it is hard to envisage enough buyers who would be willing to live with the compromises inherent in the three-seat configuration. That configuration is great for a true "drivers' car", but how many buyers are true drivers? Not a lot.
Another key factor is that in the US, and in other important markets, the three-seat configuration is no longer eligible for type-approval. The problem (at least in the US) is that the set-back passenger seats are not within acceptable range of the front air-bags. This is not an easy problem to overcome - McLaren would have to develop its own bespoke air-bag technology in order to get the configuration approved.
Having said that, I shall be very surprised if McLaren do not do another "limited edition" three-seater within the next few years. With its connection to the F1, there has been a lot of demand for the super-expensive BP23, and it will be difficult for McLaren to resist the temptation to go back to that well again.
flemke said:
Having said that, I shall be very surprised if McLaren do not do another "limited edition" three-seater within the next few years. With its connection to the F1, there has been a lot of demand for the super-expensive BP23, and it will be difficult for McLaren to resist the temptation to go back to that well again.
I wonder how much of that demand is purely down to the fact that people have seen the market value of F1s go up tenfold in the past ten years? It's not like everyone has suddenly decided that three seats is the ideal for this type of car. The punters want something to ride on the coat-tails of the original to cash in on. Fair play to McLaren the business for reacting to that. Hopefully at least a few of the BP23 buyers will actually use their cars as cars rather than pure investments.Soov330e said:
flemke said:
1560 said:
https://www.motor1.com/news/181895/mclaren-bp23-hy...
shouldn't all McLarens have the drivers-seat in the middle???
Good question.shouldn't all McLarens have the drivers-seat in the middle???
One way of looking at it is that perhaps all modern McLarens should have a three-seat configuration/driver in the centre. The other way of looking at it might be that, at least for the forthcoming GT ("BP23"), the central driving position is just a gimmick that gives McLaren an excuse to charge a lot more for or maybe offer a lot more in a car that either makes no sense as a GT or makes no sense to position the driver in the center indeed because it is GT, not a true sports car.
In the light of McLaren Automotive's goal of selling ~5,000 cars/year, which perforce requires a lot of different markets and a lot of different sorts of buyers, it is hard to envisage enough buyers who would be willing to live with the compromises inherent in the three-seat configuration. That configuration is great for a true "drivers' car", but how many buyers are true drivers? Not a lot.
Another key factor is that in the US, and in other important markets, the three-seat configuration is no longer eligible for type-approval. The problem (at least in the US) is that the set-back passenger seats are not within acceptable range of the front air-bags. This is not an easy problem to overcome - McLaren would have to develop its own bespoke air-bag technology in order to get the configuration approved.
Having said that, I shall be very surprised if McLaren do not do another "limited edition" three-seater within the next few years. With its connection to the F1, there has been a lot of demand for the super-expensive BP23, and it will be difficult for McLaren to resist the temptation to go back to that well again.
thegreenhell said:
flemke said:
Having said that, I shall be very surprised if McLaren do not do another "limited edition" three-seater within the next few years. With its connection to the F1, there has been a lot of demand for the super-expensive BP23, and it will be difficult for McLaren to resist the temptation to go back to that well again.
I wonder how much of that demand is purely down to the fact that people have seen the market value of F1s go up tenfold in the past ten years? It's not like everyone has suddenly decided that three seats is the ideal for this type of car. The punters want something to ride on the coat-tails of the original to cash in on. Fair play to McLaren the business for reacting to that. Hopefully at least a few of the BP23 buyers will actually use their cars as cars rather than pure investments.flemke said:
I suspect that quite a lot of the demand is being driven by the connection to F1 values and perhaps to the F1 as a legendary car, although a meaningful part of it will be down to the specialness of the central driving position - which in fairness is a genuine USP.
For the first 10 years of the F1's life that specialness didn't do much for the values - and they couldn't sell the original projected production run. Though of course we are in very different times now - both financially, and what else is available in the market for similar money.Joe911 said:
flemke said:
I suspect that quite a lot of the demand is being driven by the connection to F1 values and perhaps to the F1 as a legendary car, although a meaningful part of it will be down to the specialness of the central driving position - which in fairness is a genuine USP.
For the first 10 years of the F1's life that specialness didn't do much for the values - and they couldn't sell the original projected production run. Though of course we are in very different times now - both financially, and what else is available in the market for similar money.flemke said:
Yes, although I am not sure how much I want one. It will depend on how it looks. I am told that the chief designer believes that it will be one of the most beautiful cars, and perhaps the most beautiful car, ever made. We'll know next year.
You shock me! A chief designer with a huge ego? Never! I'd also be amazed if it turned out to be the case - with modern regulatory requirements I'd almost suggest it's now impossible to match some of the designs of the past in terms of beauty.
Sway said:
flemke said:
Yes, although I am not sure how much I want one. It will depend on how it looks. I am told that the chief designer believes that it will be one of the most beautiful cars, and perhaps the most beautiful car, ever made. We'll know next year.
You shock me! A chief designer with a huge ego? Never! I'd also be amazed if it turned out to be the case - with modern regulatory requirements I'd almost suggest it's now impossible to match some of the designs of the past in terms of beauty.
There have been some handsome cars in the modern (regulatory) era. The Murcielago, MP4-12C, 918, SLS, Z4 and DB11 come to mind. But it is quite true that most modern cars are ugly and that regulatory constraints make that worse.
Another thing that makes the aesthetic situation worse is the "need" for higher top speeds and lower Nordschleife times. With those come greater body width, lower section tyres, more cooling apertures, and more extreme aerodynamic surfaces to keep the car on the ground - all of which compromise the designer's work.
Edited by flemke on Wednesday 4th October 00:42
flemke said:
Yes, I think I remember those days. Wasn't that when Bernie and Max ran Formula One and Tony Blair was the most popular politician in Britain?
Whenever I saw Tony Blair I was reminded of a quote from that old western series Alias Smith and Jones - "As my old grandpappy used to say, 'Never trust a man who's always smiling.' "flemke said:
Sway said:
flemke said:
Yes, although I am not sure how much I want one. It will depend on how it looks. I am told that the chief designer believes that it will be one of the most beautiful cars, and perhaps the most beautiful car, ever made. We'll know next year.
You shock me! A chief designer with a huge ego? Never! I'd also be amazed if it turned out to be the case - with modern regulatory requirements I'd almost suggest it's now impossible to match some of the designs of the past in terms of beauty.
There have been some handsome cars in the modern (regulatory) era. The Murcielago, MP4-12C, 918, SLS, Z4 and DB11 come to mind. But it is quite true that most modern cars are ugly and that regulatory constraints make that worse.
Another thing that makes the aesthetic situation worse is the "need" for higher top speeds and lower Nordschleife times. With those come greater body width, lower section tyres, more cooling apertures, and more extreme aerodynamic surfaces to keep the car on the ground - all of which compromise the designer's work.
Edited by flemke on Wednesday 4th October 00:42
flemke said:
Yes, although I am not sure how much I want one. It will depend on how it looks. I am told that the chief designer believes that it will be one of the most beautiful cars, and perhaps the most beautiful car, ever made. We'll know next year.
Would you be tempted to go with the 'original mirrors as seen in the recent mule spyshots' as you [kind of] did with the F1?And beauty is a personal perception - fortunately my wife finds me attractive, but others may not. I'm no oil painting, but at least her and my mum love me
flemke said:
Soov330e said:
flemke said:
1560 said:
https://www.motor1.com/news/181895/mclaren-bp23-hy...
shouldn't all McLarens have the drivers-seat in the middle???
Good question.shouldn't all McLarens have the drivers-seat in the middle???
One way of looking at it is that perhaps all modern McLarens should have a three-seat configuration/driver in the centre. The other way of looking at it might be that, at least for the forthcoming GT ("BP23"), the central driving position is just a gimmick that gives McLaren an excuse to charge a lot more for or maybe offer a lot more in a car that either makes no sense as a GT or makes no sense to position the driver in the center indeed because it is GT, not a true sports car.
In the light of McLaren Automotive's goal of selling ~5,000 cars/year, which perforce requires a lot of different markets and a lot of different sorts of buyers, it is hard to envisage enough buyers who would be willing to live with the compromises inherent in the three-seat configuration. That configuration is great for a true "drivers' car", but how many buyers are true drivers? Not a lot.
Another key factor is that in the US, and in other important markets, the three-seat configuration is no longer eligible for type-approval. The problem (at least in the US) is that the set-back passenger seats are not within acceptable range of the front air-bags. This is not an easy problem to overcome - McLaren would have to develop its own bespoke air-bag technology in order to get the configuration approved.
Having said that, I shall be very surprised if McLaren do not do another "limited edition" three-seater within the next few years. With its connection to the F1, there has been a lot of demand for the super-expensive BP23, and it will be difficult for McLaren to resist the temptation to go back to that well again.
thegreenhell said:
flemke said:
Sway said:
flemke said:
Yes, although I am not sure how much I want one. It will depend on how it looks. I am told that the chief designer believes that it will be one of the most beautiful cars, and perhaps the most beautiful car, ever made. We'll know next year.
You shock me! A chief designer with a huge ego? Never! I'd also be amazed if it turned out to be the case - with modern regulatory requirements I'd almost suggest it's now impossible to match some of the designs of the past in terms of beauty.
There have been some handsome cars in the modern (regulatory) era. The Murcielago, MP4-12C, 918, SLS, Z4 and DB11 come to mind. But it is quite true that most modern cars are ugly and that regulatory constraints make that worse.
Another thing that makes the aesthetic situation worse is the "need" for higher top speeds and lower Nordschleife times. With those come greater body width, lower section tyres, more cooling apertures, and more extreme aerodynamic surfaces to keep the car on the ground - all of which compromise the designer's work.
Edited by flemke on Wednesday 4th October 00:42
As it happened, on Monday I was at McLaren and had a good look at a 720S in matte black. In that colour, the headlamps should be as inconspicuous as it is possible to make them, yet even then they ruined the rest.
It is a pity: I would love it if the car were beautiful, but it is far from it.
hurstg01 said:
flemke said:
Yes, although I am not sure how much I want one. It will depend on how it looks. I am told that the chief designer believes that it will be one of the most beautiful cars, and perhaps the most beautiful car, ever made. We'll know next year.
Would you be tempted to go with the 'original mirrors as seen in the recent mule spyshots' as you [kind of] did with the F1?And beauty is a personal perception - fortunately my wife finds me attractive, but others may not. I'm no oil painting, but at least her and my mum love me
If they are going for Vmax, external mirrors would cut mphs off the number.
Taste is a personal perception, beauty perhaps not.
E65Ross said:
It would be interesting if they were to design camera "wing mirrors" where there was a small screen in that corner by the A-pillar where you usually look for the mirror....
I wonder how many mph that would gain
I have no idea of how much drag would increase with the addition of external mirrors, but I do know it would increase.I wonder how many mph that would gain
Moving to frontal area, if we said that the smallest door mirror that would be legal would be the same size as than on a 2017 Formula One car (although I suspect that in order to be road-legal it would have to be larger than that), I'd say that the shell of the mirror would be 2" tall x 6" wide - that sort of thing. That would be 12 sq in per side, or a total of 24 sq in.
If the car body is 3 feet tall (more than that off the ground, but reduced by its ride height), and an average of 5' wide, that would be 2160 sq in frontal area. The addition of mirrors would add a bit more than 1% to the frontal area. That's almost 4 kph of Vmax.
100 IAN said:
E65Ross said:
It would be interesting if they were to design camera "wing mirrors" where there was a small screen in that corner by the A-pillar where you usually look for the mirror....
I wonder how many mph that would gain
Like a Ferrari FXX you mean?I wonder how many mph that would gain
Was that thing whacked up in someone's garden shed?
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