Do people *really* want drivers' cars?
Discussion
St John Smythe said:
Rawwr said:
OllieC said:
300bhp/ton said:
The thing is, in the "mass" market there are many who want, or rather 'think' they are petrol heads, but then go out and buy a Golf 
I do hope your wrong.
I've driven a mkV golf GTI (only breifly to be fair) and it was very capable, but a bit.. boring ? I suspect I would feel that way about most big hatchbacks, and some of that is personal bias etc in fairness.
I think it is fair to say that the Toybaru is a more focused and purer car that a fwd hot hatch, but a lot of people will choose a more practical car over it despite being genuine petrol heads
Mr Gear said:
My point quite simply was that 200bhp is not any kind of barrier to it being a good car, and people will modify it if they find that insufficient.
This has always been the way with Japanese cars.
At no point have I claimed that they will do this straight from the showroom. That is a ludicrous suggestion that you came up with to try and prove me wrong on a point I never made. Asking me to find cars in the classified ads that don't exist isn't really helping you.
Not a very gracious loser are you. In fact, this is exactly what you did on the economical V8 thread...... This has always been the way with Japanese cars.
At no point have I claimed that they will do this straight from the showroom. That is a ludicrous suggestion that you came up with to try and prove me wrong on a point I never made. Asking me to find cars in the classified ads that don't exist isn't really helping you.
So lets see, what racing/competition car are you going to post up next?
I think the original point is valid.
A while ago, in America, car enthusiasts were lamenting the demise of the the El Camino and so on. Chevy came up with a show car, and all the press and enthusiasts said "BUILD IT."
They did. It came out as a pick-up with a covered bed, and the roof was a folding hard top. Pretty cool. I don't think it looked bad at all:
It was a sales disaster. They got rid of a few, but not as many as they hoped, by a long way.
I'm worried the price of the new offering from Toyota and Subaru is too high, and whilst there might be a strong used market for the cars, and quite a few enthusiasts wanting one, especially a second hand one, there have to be people buying them new to feed that...
A while ago, in America, car enthusiasts were lamenting the demise of the the El Camino and so on. Chevy came up with a show car, and all the press and enthusiasts said "BUILD IT."
They did. It came out as a pick-up with a covered bed, and the roof was a folding hard top. Pretty cool. I don't think it looked bad at all:
It was a sales disaster. They got rid of a few, but not as many as they hoped, by a long way.
I'm worried the price of the new offering from Toyota and Subaru is too high, and whilst there might be a strong used market for the cars, and quite a few enthusiasts wanting one, especially a second hand one, there have to be people buying them new to feed that...
kambites said:
I object to the assumption that more power would make the Toyobaru a better drivers' car anyway. I suspect it wouldn't personally.
I agree. There are always some people that will want bigger numbers- if they want to take to the track or drag-strip for example, but that shouldn't affect the experience behind the wheel on the road.That 200bhp might be delivered with a serious low-end kick anyway. Who knows? Nobody on this forum, that's for sure.
300bhp/ton said:
Not a very gracious loser are you. In fact, this is exactly what you did on the economical V8 thread......
So lets see, what racing/competition car are you going to post up next?
Jesus wept, you are like a schoolchild. I was right all along, you just wanted an argument because I made you look an arse in the last thread. Sorry! So lets see, what racing/competition car are you going to post up next?
Can we drop the personal insults please... The question is valid, most of the answers have some validity in them, people are approaching from different perspectives. Nowt to incite dropping stuff like 'special kind of idiot', 'loser' and other assorted tidbits.
Back on topic, personally I find the £28K bit the biggest problem. Yes, first drives indicate it's exactly as you'd hope/expect given the ingredients, all else being equal I prefer RWD over FWD for this sort of car - but not by the £10K that separates it from a Clio 200 that took many a high end sports car scalp in direct comparisons from a 'thrills per mile' POV.
If it were drop dead gorgeous, the price would be more acceptable for many but alas... (yes it's 'neat', but it doesn't really stansd out as a 2012 car, does it? If you told me it was 10 years old I'd have believed it).
Back on topic, personally I find the £28K bit the biggest problem. Yes, first drives indicate it's exactly as you'd hope/expect given the ingredients, all else being equal I prefer RWD over FWD for this sort of car - but not by the £10K that separates it from a Clio 200 that took many a high end sports car scalp in direct comparisons from a 'thrills per mile' POV.
If it were drop dead gorgeous, the price would be more acceptable for many but alas... (yes it's 'neat', but it doesn't really stansd out as a 2012 car, does it? If you told me it was 10 years old I'd have believed it).
But compare it to a Golf GTi instead of the Clio, and it starts to look much more sensible. You're always going to pay a bit more for a bespoke platform.
Of course you could ask why most Golf GTi drivers choose one over a Clio... I'd be interested to know the answer, I suspect in a large number of cases it's down to image rather than the extra practicality the Golf offers.
Anyway, 28k would be about the same money in real terms as the RX8 was when it was launched.
Of course you could ask why most Golf GTi drivers choose one over a Clio... I'd be interested to know the answer, I suspect in a large number of cases it's down to image rather than the extra practicality the Golf offers.
Anyway, 28k would be about the same money in real terms as the RX8 was when it was launched.
Edited by kambites on Thursday 1st December 10:37
900T-R said:
Can we drop the personal insults please... The question is valid, most of the answers have some validity in them, people are approaching from different perspectives. Nowt to incite dropping stuff like 'special kind of idiot', 'loser' and other assorted tidbits.
Back on topic, personally I find the £28K bit the biggest problem. Yes, first drives indicate it's exactly as you'd hope/expect given the ingredients, all else being equal I prefer RWD over FWD for this sort of car - but not by the £10K that separates it from a Clio 200 that took many a high end sports car scalp in direct comparisons from a 'thrills per mile' POV.
If it were drop dead gorgeous, the price would be more acceptable for many but alas... (yes it's 'neat', but it doesn't really stansd out as a 2012 car, does it? If you told me it was 10 years old I'd have believed it).
But I didn't think the price was set in stone anyway? Isn't it pure speculation?Back on topic, personally I find the £28K bit the biggest problem. Yes, first drives indicate it's exactly as you'd hope/expect given the ingredients, all else being equal I prefer RWD over FWD for this sort of car - but not by the £10K that separates it from a Clio 200 that took many a high end sports car scalp in direct comparisons from a 'thrills per mile' POV.
If it were drop dead gorgeous, the price would be more acceptable for many but alas... (yes it's 'neat', but it doesn't really stansd out as a 2012 car, does it? If you told me it was 10 years old I'd have believed it).
Mr Gear said:
I agree. There are always some people that will want bigger numbers- if they want to take to the track or drag-strip for example, but that shouldn't affect the experience behind the wheel on the road.
That 200bhp might be delivered with a serious low-end kick anyway. Who knows? Nobody on this forum, that's for sure.
Isn't the power and torque right at the top of the rev range? That 200bhp might be delivered with a serious low-end kick anyway. Who knows? Nobody on this forum, that's for sure.
There is an argument that "we" as consumers have continued buying plusher and higher spec'd euro boxes so that's what the markets have offered. Conversely you could say that's all we have been offered. I think cars like the mx5, 350z (not the 370z as that's just too ugly
) and m3 have always sold well. I'm not very good at marketing so I'll wait and see the reviews and the size of the discounts, which is usually a good indication of how well something is selling. kambites said:
I object to the assumption that more power would make the Toyobaru a better drivers' car anyway. I suspect it wouldn't personally.
I don't think it'd make it a better drivers car, but it would make it a better performance car.Personally I think 200hp for a "daily" would be ideal and usable, but to be a daily for the masses I think £28k is a tad too pricey.
Anyone can get a thrill from pulling onto a road and planting the loud pedal, even if it's only up to 30-40mph on a city street. Pushing the G limit in the bends is a far rarer thing for most, when used as daily transport.
900T-R said:
Back on topic, personally I find the £28K bit the biggest problem. Yes, first drives indicate it's exactly as you'd hope/expect given the ingredients, all else being equal I prefer RWD over FWD for this sort of car - but not by the £10K that separates it from a Clio 200 that took many a high end sports car scalp in direct comparisons from a 'thrills per mile' POV.
If it were drop dead gorgeous, the price would be more acceptable for many but alas... (yes it's 'neat', but it doesn't really stansd out as a 2012 car, does it? If you told me it was 10 years old I'd have believed it).
Toyota have said that 28K isn't the price.If it were drop dead gorgeous, the price would be more acceptable for many but alas... (yes it's 'neat', but it doesn't really stansd out as a 2012 car, does it? If you told me it was 10 years old I'd have believed it).
Also it will be built by Toyota not Renault which is a major plus point.
300bhp/ton said:
kambites said:
I object to the assumption that more power would make the Toyobaru a better drivers' car anyway. I suspect it wouldn't personally.
I don't think it'd make it a better drivers car, but it would make it a better performance car.300bhp/ton said:
excel monkey said:
300bhp/ton said:
I can. The FT-86 isn't exactly a tiny Elise type car, in fact I suspect its very much identical size to the Genesis coupe if you put the tape measure on them.
The RX-8, a similar type of car was also pitched at this market, along with the 1 Series Coupe and at the time the Pontiac Solstice coupe and Saturn Sky.
Behave! The current Mustang and Camaro are both two feet longer than the FT86. They're in a bigger size class. The Solstice and Sky are both better competitors size-wise, although they are only two seaters.The RX-8, a similar type of car was also pitched at this market, along with the 1 Series Coupe and at the time the Pontiac Solstice coupe and Saturn Sky.
Solstice 159 inches
Sky 161 inches
FT86 164 inches
Genesis 182 inches
Mustang 188 inches
Camaro 190 inches
UK market I admit is different, but I suspect a much smaller market.
Mr Gear said:
kambites said:
I object to the assumption that more power would make the Toyobaru a better drivers' car anyway. I suspect it wouldn't personally.
I agree. There are always some people that will want bigger numbers- if they want to take to the track or drag-strip for example, but that shouldn't affect the experience behind the wheel on the road.That 200bhp might be delivered with a serious low-end kick anyway. Who knows? Nobody on this forum, that's for sure.
HP = rpms x torque / 5252
So low torque means high rpms will be a must for power. So there is no chance in hell of it having "serious low-end kick". And seeing as Evo and others have driven a prototype version, there are likely a lot that do know.
Fittster said:
Toyota have said that 28K isn't the price.
I think that bit might not be accidentally dropped in conversation with the press though... most manufacturers/importers will do a bit of expectation management before finalizing price and spec. I'd be surprised if the price ended up to be far off. Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff