Why are executuive cars frequently automatic?
Discussion
chris1roll said:
Aside from the rev counter rising and falling you can't tell when my dads E class is changing gear, and thats with about 210,000 mile on it.
After owning my D2 A8 with a funtioning but somewhat clunky 4 speed it was a revelation.
Are there some that are better than the mercs then?
If there was an option to have an auto on the company car list I would take it.
I have to admit to not driving many - C320CDI, E350CDI and ermmm, that's about it.After owning my D2 A8 with a funtioning but somewhat clunky 4 speed it was a revelation.
Are there some that are better than the mercs then?
If there was an option to have an auto on the company car list I would take it.
Most Jags, a few BMs and some others have a nice ZF auto - usually 6 or more recently 8 speed. Set on "sport" mode, the box on our BM gets properly aggressive and redlines in each gear. Stick it in normal drive mode and it wafts about like a luxobarge.
I have tried quite a few auto boxes over the years and so far the best one I have found is the DSG, from VW/Seat/Skoda etc excellent box, very smooth when in one of the luxury models but can be adapted fine for the VRS/Cupra type models.
If you have not tried one I would recommend it.
If you have not tried one I would recommend it.
After passing my test I bought an old auto Escort for £50 and since then I have had several automatics (an old Cavalier, a Camaro, G20 van, Thunderbird and Cutlass).
And not these electronically tarted-up manuals they call automatics today
I also drive manuals a lot with work and although I find them easy to drive, they become tiresome in traffic!
And not these electronically tarted-up manuals they call automatics today
I also drive manuals a lot with work and although I find them easy to drive, they become tiresome in traffic!
Zwolf said:
Usually because of one of a couple of factors:
One is that the manufacturer doesn't have a manual gearbox capable of reliably transmitting the torque (such as BMWs bigger diesels, turbo V8s and V12s). The sort of manual gearbox that could transmit it might have been deemed too "agricultural" as a result and not befitting of the premium/luxury car remit.
Another is market demand and placement and cost of development and homologation for the likely number of units sold. When offered, the reality is that new buyers of such cars are content with the auto/automated manual offering. It's the people who want to buy them years later at a fraction of the price who want them with manuals, but manufacturers don't build cars to satisfy used market demand. Look at manual 8 Series for example, most new buyers didn't want them that way, but now most used ones seem to.
There may be other technical or performance reasons why you can't have one. Part of the RS3's marketing value is it's very low 0-62 time, which is only achievable by dint of the gearbox and software employed to achieve it. Would you still buy the "proper" manual with a nominally slower acceleration time?
That does make a lot of sense, especially the bit about demand for a manual gearbox being far higher in the used market. One is that the manufacturer doesn't have a manual gearbox capable of reliably transmitting the torque (such as BMWs bigger diesels, turbo V8s and V12s). The sort of manual gearbox that could transmit it might have been deemed too "agricultural" as a result and not befitting of the premium/luxury car remit.
Another is market demand and placement and cost of development and homologation for the likely number of units sold. When offered, the reality is that new buyers of such cars are content with the auto/automated manual offering. It's the people who want to buy them years later at a fraction of the price who want them with manuals, but manufacturers don't build cars to satisfy used market demand. Look at manual 8 Series for example, most new buyers didn't want them that way, but now most used ones seem to.
There may be other technical or performance reasons why you can't have one. Part of the RS3's marketing value is it's very low 0-62 time, which is only achievable by dint of the gearbox and software employed to achieve it. Would you still buy the "proper" manual with a nominally slower acceleration time?
It just seems a shame, I would love a nice modern car with a manual gearbox. I suppose the lack of demand would also mean they wouldn't want to spend large sums developing a gearbox that would be able to cope with the power / torque too.
I would have an RS3 with a manual if I could, to me it is a performance car and I would want to be able to change gear myself even if that means slightly slower 0-60 times.
I do see the point in automatics, and I am not for a minute suggesting they are rubbish or anything, but I would like the choice of a manual in some cars. Audi have even dropped the manual in the new S4
SD1992 said:
I would have an RS3 with a manual if I could, to me it is a performance car and I would want to be able to change gear myself even if that means slightly slower 0-60 times.
I do see the point in automatics, and I am not for a minute suggesting they are rubbish or anything, but I would like the choice of a manual in some cars. Audi have even dropped the manual in the new S4
Another factor for European market vehicles is manufacturer fleet average CO-fecking-2 emissions. Modern autos and automated manuals tend to produce more favourable figures in the official test (the one we all know is largely crap) as the autos are free to swap ratios whenever they wish, yet manuals have to be changed into given gears at particular speeds, irrespective of whether that's the optimum change-up/down point for that specific engine. I do see the point in automatics, and I am not for a minute suggesting they are rubbish or anything, but I would like the choice of a manual in some cars. Audi have even dropped the manual in the new S4
Other markets where such legal chicanery is not required often retain the manual option - I think in the case of the current S4 you mention, you can still have one - just not within the EU market area. Just as BMW built manual E60/61 M5s for North America, partly demand, partly the lack of adverse side effect upon average CO2 figures. Whilst those other markets will all have their own pollution and emissions requirements, evidently others are a bit more lenient that EU ones.
mej023 said:
I could afford it if I really really really wanted to. I'm kinda picky about cars and it's one of
a shortlist of only 4, so I at least want to know if I can continue to dream/save for another couple
of years, or just focus on something slightly more realistic. It is a cracking looking car.
(If anyone's interested, the other 3 cars on the shortlist are a Mazda 6 (probably won't fit in
my garage), Lexus IS and Subaru Legacy).
Michael.
I really like the look of the C Class. Then I had one for a day whilst my car was being serviced C220 CDi auto Sport I think, and was seriously underwhelmed. Nothing wrong with it, was just very ordinary. Might as well get a Passat, in fact the Passat is roomier and more comfortable. a shortlist of only 4, so I at least want to know if I can continue to dream/save for another couple
of years, or just focus on something slightly more realistic. It is a cracking looking car.
(If anyone's interested, the other 3 cars on the shortlist are a Mazda 6 (probably won't fit in
my garage), Lexus IS and Subaru Legacy).
Michael.
Was very glad to get my SLK back and have scotched all ideas of a C Class for good.
SD1992 said:
That does make a lot of sense, especially the bit about demand for a manual gearbox being far higher in the used market.
It just seems a shame, I would love a nice modern car with a manual gearbox. I suppose the lack of demand would also mean they wouldn't want to spend large sums developing a gearbox that would be able to cope with the power / torque too.
I would have an RS3 with a manual if I could, to me it is a performance car and I would want to be able to change gear myself even if that means slightly slower 0-60 times.
I do see the point in automatics, and I am not for a minute suggesting they are rubbish or anything, but I would like the choice of a manual in some cars. Audi have even dropped the manual in the new S4
The RS3's uses the 7 speed wet clutch (i think it and the TTRS are the only VAG's that do, R8 is R Tronic), it feels 100 times faster than the 6 and 7 speed dry clutch box's that all the other VAGs use, you can chase down the box as fast as you can press the padal, on the dry clutch boxes you have to double tap and pause for a bit. It also does not change gear on the red line, rather holding the gear snarling and fartingIt just seems a shame, I would love a nice modern car with a manual gearbox. I suppose the lack of demand would also mean they wouldn't want to spend large sums developing a gearbox that would be able to cope with the power / torque too.
I would have an RS3 with a manual if I could, to me it is a performance car and I would want to be able to change gear myself even if that means slightly slower 0-60 times.
I do see the point in automatics, and I am not for a minute suggesting they are rubbish or anything, but I would like the choice of a manual in some cars. Audi have even dropped the manual in the new S4
you can hear it in this (start from 1 min) snarling at 1.22
and the sound is kleenex time for any quattro rally car fans
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1HayoASR-54
Edited by Dave Hedgehog on Friday 9th December 07:07
Tyrion said:
My slk has the manual option, no idea what you even call it. Used it once just to see if it worked. Doesn't interest me really... Auto is a million times better 
yepI think the people that "hate" or "don't get" Autos have never driven a good one. I loved the autobox in my Volvo T5
Ari said:
I really like the look of the C Class. Then I had one for a day whilst my car was being serviced C220 CDi auto Sport I think, and was seriously underwhelmed. Nothing wrong with it, was just very ordinary. Might as well get a Passat, in fact the Passat is roomier and more comfortable.
Was very glad to get my SLK back and have scotched all ideas of a C Class for good.
The wife had a C220CDi Touring Sport Auto for 2 years. TBH I was very impressed with it. Nicely put together, decent ride (for a sport), handled well, reasonable go. Gearbox in comfort mode was understandably a bit slow witted but in Sport (as my wife always drove it) or Manual (with paddles, as I always drove it) it did a pretty good job. Having driven a few cars from the VAG group (Passat, A4, A3) IMO it felt and drove like a much better quality peice of kit.Was very glad to get my SLK back and have scotched all ideas of a C Class for good.
SWoll said:
The wife had a C220CDi Touring Sport Auto for 2 years. TBH I was very impressed with it. Nicely put together, decent ride (for a sport), handled well, reasonable go. Gearbox in comfort mode was understandably a bit slow witted but in Sport (as my wife always drove it) or Manual (with paddles, as I always drove it) it did a pretty good job. Having driven a few cars from the VAG group (Passat, A4, A3) IMO it felt and drove like a much better quality peice of kit.
That's interesting. I agree with everything you say except for it driving like a much better quality piece of kit. It is perfect good, as you say, but it just didn't feel special to me, and I wanted it to. I drive my partner's Golf Match TDI a lot and it didn't feel much better (or much roomier) than that. Ari said:
SWoll said:
The wife had a C220CDi Touring Sport Auto for 2 years. TBH I was very impressed with it. Nicely put together, decent ride (for a sport), handled well, reasonable go. Gearbox in comfort mode was understandably a bit slow witted but in Sport (as my wife always drove it) or Manual (with paddles, as I always drove it) it did a pretty good job. Having driven a few cars from the VAG group (Passat, A4, A3) IMO it felt and drove like a much better quality peice of kit.
That's interesting. I agree with everything you say except for it driving like a much better quality piece of kit. It is perfect good, as you say, but it just didn't feel special to me, and I wanted it to. I drive my partner's Golf Match TDI a lot and it didn't feel much better (or much roomier) than that. Recently changes my Cayman S for an auto 320d M Sport and love it.
Change in location means I have a longer commute which is either motorway, dual carriageway or stop start traffic.
The BM is a far nicer place to be for this type of use and the Auto really helps that. The Cayman has a firm clutch that used to get on my t1ts after a while in heavy traffic.
A fun weekend car should be a manual but auto for everyday cars.
Change in location means I have a longer commute which is either motorway, dual carriageway or stop start traffic.
The BM is a far nicer place to be for this type of use and the Auto really helps that. The Cayman has a firm clutch that used to get on my t1ts after a while in heavy traffic.
A fun weekend car should be a manual but auto for everyday cars.
Davey S2 said:
Recently changes my Cayman S for an auto 320d M Sport and love it.
Change in location means I have a longer commute which is either motorway, dual carriageway or stop start traffic.
The BM is a far nicer place to be for this type of use and the Auto really helps that. The Cayman has a firm clutch that used to get on my t1ts after a while in heavy traffic.
A fun weekend car should be a manual but auto for everyday cars.
Indeed. I loved my RX8 but the combination of a very heavy clutch (Probably on its way out TBH) and an engine that enjoys stalling if you don't give it enough revs was a major, major PITA in town. I think a 4.2 auto A8 is my ideal city car.Change in location means I have a longer commute which is either motorway, dual carriageway or stop start traffic.
The BM is a far nicer place to be for this type of use and the Auto really helps that. The Cayman has a firm clutch that used to get on my t1ts after a while in heavy traffic.
A fun weekend car should be a manual but auto for everyday cars.
carreauchompeur said:
Indeed. I loved my RX8 but the combination of a very heavy clutch (Probably on its way out TBH) and an engine that enjoys stalling if you don't give it enough revs was a major, major PITA in town. I think a 4.2 auto A8 is my ideal city car.
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