'Dangerous' Roads?

[djdestiny]

I live just off a red route, supposedly dangerous.
The road is not dangerous at all, it's the risk taking impatient tts driving on it that are dangerous

[Shay HTFC]

Its a bit autistic arguing that there is no such thing as a dangerous road.

Some roads are obviously more accident inducing than others, even if the perfect driver wouldn't consider them a problem. Describing them as dangerous is hardly crime of the century.

[GravelBen]

Yes, some roads do have a bigger margin for error than others.

[davepoth]

Shay HTFC said:

Its a bit autistic arguing that there is no such thing as a dangerous road.

Some roads are obviously more accident inducing than others, even if the perfect driver wouldn't consider them a problem. Describing them as dangerous is hardly crime of the century.

What you can get is a set of circumstances where the layout of the road is such that even a careful and considerate driver could easily misread it - IIRC there's one such road in Scotland.

http://www.undiscoveredscotland.co.uk/dunure/elect...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xGqOYbeTaqs&fea...

Obviously the only problem here is that you will slow own a bit, but you get the idea.

[h0b0]

GravelBen said:

Yes, some roads do have a bigger margin for error than others.

And sometimes it goes wrong....

Most dangerous road

[John D.]

Personally I find the roads labelled dangerous (frequently sign posted even!) are the most fun. Once you see that sign saying 'x deaths in last year' you know its going to be one worth driving

Obviously many others feel the same but unfortunately enjoy themselves a bit too much.

[Mr2Mike]

thiscocks said:

But its still because someone is driving a 20 tonne truck on it. If they were on a pony or donkey it would most likely be fine.

Makes no difference, they have to drive trucks on it to get the job done. It is therefore a dangerous road.

[Mr2Mike]

djdestiny said:

I live just off a red route, supposedly dangerous.
The road is not dangerous at all, it's the risk taking impatient tts driving on it that are dangerous

If the road encourages people to take risks then surely that not very safe?

[heebeegeetee]

Mr2Mike said:

If the road encourages people to take risks then surely that not very safe?

How can a road encourage anything?

There is a road near where I live which has a reputation. It has a bend. Unfortunately, many people have come cropper on this bend; a young GP killed himself in his TVR many years ago. Trucks have fallen over on it. There have been many accidents, but it's just a bend, and a well-signed one at that.

Is the bend dangerous, or is it that some of the drivers who use it are dangerous?

[Mr2Mike]

heebeegeetee said:

How can a road encourage anything?

You probably shouldn't be posting on PH if you have to ask this.

[heebeegeetee]

Mr2Mike said:

You probably shouldn't be posting on PH if you have to ask this.

You've used a verb to describe what a road does, but a road is an inanimate object so how can it do anything?

If I find a road that appeals to my senses, I may react to my senses in a certain way which may or may not lead me into trouble, but the road is still an inanimate object.

So if I crash, is it my fault because I'm dangerous or is it the road's fault because it is dangerous?

[U T]

heebeegeetee said:

You've used a verb to describe what a road does, but a road is an inanimate object so how can it do anything?

It can subside. It can be washed away by a flash flood. It can be overwhelmed with lava from a nearby volcano. It can be covered in boulders from a rockfall.

A mountain road that is often subject to rockfalls is a dangerous road. It has nothing to do with the skill of the driver, just pure luck. If a boulder falls at the wrong time, you could die.

[Shay HTFC]

heebeegeetee said:

Mr2Mike said:

You probably shouldn't be posting on PH if you have to ask this.

You've used a verb to describe what a road does, but a road is an inanimate object so how can it do anything?

If I find a road that appeals to my senses, I may react to my senses in a certain way which may or may not lead me into trouble, but the road is still an inanimate object.

So if I crash, is it my fault because I'm dangerous or is it the road's fault because it is dangerous?

But you're getting really picky with the exact definition of what a 'dangerous road' can and cannot be. Obviously its just an inanimate, non moving object, so is inherently safe in scientific terms.

However, in human terms, if 150% more people crash on a certain road compared to the normal crash rate, then surely there is something about that road which encourages dangerous activity, so its pretty understandable referring to the road as dangerous.



ETA: Its like saying motorbikes are no more dangerous than cars, which is scientifically true you could argue. A motorbike driven correctly will accelerate, decelerate and go around corners in a predictable fashion.

However, in real life mistakes happen, and making a mistake on a motorbike is much more dangerous than making a mistake in a car, so its pretty fair to say that motorbikes are more dangerous than cars (in normal life).
Likewise, making a mistake on some roads is much more dangerous than making one on others.

Edited by Shay HTFC on Friday 6th January 14:20

[jagnet]

U T said:

It can subside. It can be washed away by a flash flood. It can be overwhelmed with lava from a nearby volcano. It can be covered in boulders from a rockfall.

A mountain road that is often subject to rockfalls is a dangerous road. It has nothing to do with the skill of the driver, just pure luck. If a boulder falls at the wrong time, you could die.

Some extreme examples there, which are all fair imho. However, given the number of alleged dangerous roads in the UK and the lack of nearby volcanoes, flash floods and landslides I still maintain that what most refer to as dangerous roads are nothing of the sort.

Blaming the road for the shortcomings of the driver is just typical of the "not my fault" approach. Not my fault there was a tree around the corner and I couldn't stop in time, there weren't warning signs. Not my fault the negative camber caught me out, there weren't any warnings. Not my fault I hit the pram, there should have been a pavement.

[Shay HTFC]

jagnet said:

U T said:

It can subside. It can be washed away by a flash flood. It can be overwhelmed with lava from a nearby volcano. It can be covered in boulders from a rockfall.

A mountain road that is often subject to rockfalls is a dangerous road. It has nothing to do with the skill of the driver, just pure luck. If a boulder falls at the wrong time, you could die.

Some extreme examples there, which are all fair imho. However, given the number of alleged dangerous roads in the UK and the lack of nearby volcanoes, flash floods and landslides I still maintain that what most refer to as dangerous roads are nothing of the sort.

Blaming the road for the shortcomings of the driver is just typical of the "not my fault" approach. Not my fault there was a tree around the corner and I couldn't stop in time, there weren't warning signs. Not my fault the negative camber caught me out, there weren't any warnings. Not my fault I hit the pram, there should have been a pavement.

What you are saying seems to be a bit like saying that a nail sticking out of the floor is not dangerous because people should be considering the unexpected and stepping on it would be human error.

Edited by Shay HTFC on Friday 6th January 14:28

[U T]

jagnet said:

U T said:

It can subside. It can be washed away by a flash flood. It can be overwhelmed with lava from a nearby volcano. It can be covered in boulders from a rockfall.

A mountain road that is often subject to rockfalls is a dangerous road. It has nothing to do with the skill of the driver, just pure luck. If a boulder falls at the wrong time, you could die.

Some extreme examples there, which are all fair imho. However, given the number of alleged dangerous roads in the UK and the lack of nearby volcanoes, flash floods and landslides I still maintain that what most refer to as dangerous roads are nothing of the sort.

Blaming the road for the shortcomings of the driver is just typical of the "not my fault" approach. Not my fault there was a tree around the corner and I couldn't stop in time, there weren't warning signs. Not my fault the negative camber caught me out, there weren't any warnings. Not my fault I hit the pram, there should have been a pavement.

I agree. There are few, if any, dangerous roads in the UK. Just roads that need more care to be taken. But my post shows dangerous roads do exist...so I win and go thru to the next round of "Who wants to be a pedantic twit."

[jagnet]

Shay HTFC said:

What you are saying seems to be a bit like saying that a nail sticking out of the floor is not dangerous because people should be considering the unexpected and stepping on it would be human error.

Yes, you should look where you're walking

It's a bit different though isn't it? As a driver you should be looking where you're going and if you can't see far enough ahead to stop within that distance you'll always be taking a gamble that you're going to hit something if it's there. Likewise if you can't see the negative camber/broken surface/slippery conditions on the bend ahead then you're not looking far enough ahead, travelling too quickly to deal with it when it occurs, or simply not concentrating on hazards enough.

It's very rare that there's anything so unexpected when driving that you can't do anything about it or couldn't have seen it coming with better observation, and more often than not it'll be another driver/person causing it rather than the natural surroundings or the road.

U T said:

I agree. There are few, if any, dangerous roads in the UK. Just roads that need more care to be taken. But my post shows dangerous roads do exist...so I win and go thru to the next round of "Who wants to be a pedantic twit."

so what's the prize? A tour of Burmese mountain roads in the rainy season?

Edited by jagnet on Friday 6th January 14:51

[heebeegeetee]

Shay HTFC said:

What you are saying seems to be a bit like saying that a nail sticking out of the floor is not dangerous because people should be considering the unexpected and stepping on it would be human error.

Edited by Shay HTFC on Friday 6th January 14:28

Yes, but when you place a big sign saying NAIL STICKING UP HERE and people keep cracking their shins on the sign and then tripping over the nail...

[jagnet]

heebeegeetee said:

Yes, but when you place a big sign saying NAIL STICKING UP HERE and people keep cracking their shins on the sign and then tripping over the nail...

I'd like to see legislation requiring signage to be placed warning that there may be warning signs in the vicinity. It's the only way to be sure.

[DatsunDave]

jagnet said:

It's very rare that there's anything so unexpected when driving that you can't do anything about it or couldn't have seen it coming with better observation

Hundreds upon hundreds of hazards on the roads right here in the UK that are in extremely dangerous places, and entirely unpredictable.

We cannot take every corner at five mph, nor 'walk the course' before negotiating windy hillside roads in the dark, to ensure there is not a chunk missing that our headlights won't pick up, or a new area of water crossing that may render an entire section impassable with black ice.

In using a vehicle to drive on the roads we have a certain level of expectation about the condition and predictability of those roads.

Wrongly or rightly, when the road does not adhere to these norms it is indeed a dangerous road.

In this respect danger is the description of the risk it poses to us, and just like the knives in your kitchen, roads are only dangerous when in use. Respect knives and you will not suffer, respect roads and you will not suffer.

Will the avid cook go a lifetime without suffering a knife wound?

Will the avid cook go a lifetime without suffering a wooden spoon injury?

Are wooden spoons then inherently safer than sharp knives?

I think so.

A road with sleeping policemen, barriers and a flat, grippy surface would be safer than a road, running along a ridge, with an excessive camber to a steep drop with no barrier, with a worn and slippery surface.

Simple.