Power, Now vs Then vs Reality

[aka_kerrly]

bennyboysvuk said:

I agree that 200bhp per ton is pretty good in a car, but 300bhp per ton would be even better from an overtaking perspective.

Seriously!?

You really think you need 300bhp per ton in order to execute effective overtaking manoeuvres.

I agree with what someone said earlier, people are becoming obsessed purely with numbers and it never seizes to amaze me that people think 200-300hp is not a lot and makes a car underpowered when there is absolutely no reference to:
1) how much the car weighs
2) how many gears/how closely spaced/how low ratio they are
3) if the chassis can handle the power
4) if there is enough grip to actually use any of the power.

It is far more important to have usable power and I find it far more satisfying being able to whip through 2nd and 3rd gear without ending up well into the 100MPH + area.

If you look at examples from 60s to today and see just how HP has increased hence people thinking 200hp isn't all that yet in real world performance terms none of these cars are slow!

1966 Porsche 911 NA 160hp 0-60 in 8sec
1973 Porsche 911 turbo 245hp 0-60 5.5 sec
1986 Porsche 911 turbo 282hp 0-60 5.1 sec
1991 Porsche 911 turbo 315hp 0-60 4.9 sec
2000 Porsche 911 turbo 415hp 0-60 3.9 sec
2012 Porsche 911 turbo 500hp 0-60 3.5 sec

[redgriff500]

Alex said:

200bhp/tonne is the sweet spot IMO.

Agreed.

The problem with a fun but underpowered car (like a std MX5) is that you get blown away by repmobiles at the lights and then stuck behind them for miles as you haven't got the power to overtake.

[BarnatosGhost]

Rawwr said:

Reardy Mister said:

But ask the man if he'd rather have a 600cc or a 1000?

Heh, it remains true. The Fireblade made me lazy and less committed. I rode the 600/750 considerably harder than the 1000 and in terms of enjoyment, I'd have to say the 750 was the most involving. The Fireblade handled like Jesus, though.

Of all the prophets, I always think of him as particularly wieldy.

[kambites]

redgriff500 said:

The problem with a fun but underpowered car (like a std MX5) is that you get blown away by repmobiles at the lights and then stuck behind them for miles as you haven't got the power to overtake.

Have you ever happy had this happen? I can't remember the last time someone tried to "race me" away from lights. Very few people, when pulling away from traffic lights in a national speed limit, bother to accelerate from 0-60 in less than about 15 seconds.

[Rawwr]

BarnatosGhost said:

Of all the prophets, I always think of him as particularly wieldy.

But had amazing traction on wet surfaces, or so I hear.

[Noesph]

Rawwr said:

kambites said:

I rarely have problems overtaking with my measly 69bhp

You should try it with 59bhp

[redgriff500]

kambites said:

redgriff500 said:

The problem with a fun but underpowered car (like a std MX5) is that you get blown away by repmobiles at the lights and then stuck behind them for miles as you haven't got the power to overtake.

Have you ever happy had this happen? I can't remember the last time someone tried to "race me" away from lights. Very few people, when pulling away from traffic lights in a national speed limit, bother to accelerate from 0-60 in less than about 15 seconds.

Yes lots of times.

I ran a standard(ish) MX5 for 2 yrs. People see a "sportscar" that they are aware isn't as fast as their mighty TDi and they love to prove it. Unfortunately they then slow down and hinder your progress for miles.

It's the main reason I supercharged my car.

[kambites]

redgriff500 said:

I ran a standard(ish) MX5 for 2 yrs. People see a "sportscar" that they are aware isn't as fast as their mighty TDi and they love to prove it. Unfortunately they then slow down and hinder your progress for miles.

Odd. It's never happened to be in the Elise in nearly five years of driving it every day. OK it's a bit faster than most diesels but not massively so and hot hatches will leave it behind quite convincingly once you get over the traction advantage.

[Motorrad]

kambites said:

Odd. It's never happened to be in the Elise in nearly five years of driving it every day.

When I lived in the south of England there were lots of places were dheads would go in the wrong lane in order to 'queue' jump just because they had much more powerful cars than most others on the road ie go in wrong marked lane at a set of lights and use the power to cut in front of a load of people waiting to go the same way.

I'm glad to say I grew out of it eventually

[One Amp Andy]

Motorrad said:

When I lived in the south of England there were lots of places were dheads would go in the wrong lane in order to 'queue' jump just because they had much more powerful cars than most others on the road ie go in wrong marked lane at a set of lights and use the power to cut in front of a load of people waiting to go the same way.

I'm glad to say I grew out of it eventually

[J4CKO]

redgriff500 said:

Alex said:

200bhp/tonne is the sweet spot IMO.

Agreed.

The problem with a fun but underpowered car (like a std MX5) is that you get blown away by repmobiles at the lights and then stuck behind them for miles as you haven't got the power to overtake.

Depends whether you care about being "beaten", it isnt a race and whether someone in a repmobile is fast than me I dont care as I have realised how little it matters, my manhood, self worth and mood arent based on whether I am "bested" or whether I am faster than someone else, I generally dont have much need to arrive somewhere a few seconds before someone else. Ok a little good natured "synchonised acceleration" is fun with a like minded petrolhead is fun, stop for a chat about overhead cams and injectors but usually it is someone wanting to beat you at all costs to make a point and to try and make you look inferior.

Driving is all about the sensations, the feedback, the sounds, the smells, the tactile side and should be you, a car and the road, nobody else involved, if you are enjoying it, go with it, take it on face value and dont worry about the next car, more power or whatever as those moments are fleeting and some penis with a caravan, horse box or Honda Jazz will ineviatably make a big deal about pulling out in front of you or angry man in his mega diesel will attach himself to your rear bumper when he sees an opportunity to "beat you", I find having someone else involved when driving spiritedly just spoils it most of the time.

[Rawwr]

If people want to race from the lights, let them. I'll be at work when they're collecting their trophy.

[BarnatosGhost]

Rawwr said:

BarnatosGhost said:

Of all the prophets, I always think of him as particularly wieldy.

But had amazing traction on wet surfaces, or so I hear.

You must have read an 'advertisement feature' then, all the reviews I read complained of terrible aquaplaning.

Mind you, the fuel consumption at 0.001fpp and 0.0004lpp was deeply impressive.

[Rawwr]

Noesph said:

You should try it with 59bhp

Heh, I have owned an Endura engined Ka, too!

[Rawwr]

BarnatosGhost said:

You must have read an 'advertisement feature' then, all the reviews I read complained of terrible aquaplaning.

Mind you, the fuel consumption at 0.001fpp and 0.0004lpp was deeply impressive.

The other bonus is that you can thrash it death, stick it in a cave for a few days and it'll repair itself to 'as new' condition.

[MC Bodge]

As someone who rides a bike, most cars don't seem 'fast' from the traffic lights, so it isn't really important whether a car can do 0-60 in 6/7/8/9/10 seconds on a dual carriageway.

That isn't where the enjoyment in driving lies.

[Fastdruid]

Floosy said:

I used to ride a Yamaha YZF-600R ...the old thundercat. By R1/R6 standards it was fat, podgy and and a a tad lardy with "only" 118bhp...but it used to scare the fk out of me doing sub 4 second 0-62's or hooning it at 140+ on a track.

Scared me too when I borrowed one for a hoon round Cadwell. Mostly because it felt very top heavy and all the power came in with a rush at 10k which made it a bit tricky to feed in the power much preferred the CBR6 and the R6.

I'd have the 600 over the 1000 any day on the road, purely because I *would* use it all and I'd end up punching a hole in a hedge or having my license shredded. Then again modern 600s are *bloody* quick.
That's why I bought an old shed of a 750 which is dead slow. It only manages 82hp back when it was new (claimed 105!). Means I can use all of it and the 80's handling keeps me slow.

[redgriff500]

J4CKO said:

redgriff500 said:

Alex said:

200bhp/tonne is the sweet spot IMO.

Agreed.

The problem with a fun but underpowered car (like a std MX5) is that you get blown away by repmobiles at the lights and then stuck behind them for miles as you haven't got the power to overtake.

Depends whether you care about being "beaten", it isnt a race and whether someone in a repmobile is fast than me I dont care as I have realised how little it matters, my manhood, self worth and mood arent based on whether I am "bested" or whether I am faster than someone else, I generally dont have much need to arrive somewhere a few seconds before someone else. Ok a little good natured "synchonised acceleration" is fun with a like minded petrolhead is fun, stop for a chat about overhead cams and injectors but usually it is someone wanting to beat you at all costs to make a point and to try and make you look inferior.

Driving is all about the sensations, the feedback, the sounds, the smells, the tactile side and should be you, a car and the road, nobody else involved, if you are enjoying it, go with it, take it on face value and dont worry about the next car, more power or whatever as those moments are fleeting and some penis with a caravan, horse box or Honda Jazz will ineviatably make a big deal about pulling out in front of you or angry man in his mega diesel will attach himself to your rear bumper when he sees an opportunity to "beat you", I find having someone else involved when driving spiritedly just spoils it most of the time.

Now read the last part of my sentence you quoted.

I don't care if someone beats me away from the lights as long as they keep that speed going and don't slow down for the bends.

Unfortunately I'd estimate I've only met 10 such drivers in 20+ years of driving.

[J4CKO]

redgriff500 said:

J4CKO said:

redgriff500 said:

Alex said:

200bhp/tonne is the sweet spot IMO.

Agreed.

The problem with a fun but underpowered car (like a std MX5) is that you get blown away by repmobiles at the lights and then stuck behind them for miles as you haven't got the power to overtake.

Depends whether you care about being "beaten", it isnt a race and whether someone in a repmobile is fast than me I dont care as I have realised how little it matters, my manhood, self worth and mood arent based on whether I am "bested" or whether I am faster than someone else, I generally dont have much need to arrive somewhere a few seconds before someone else. Ok a little good natured "synchonised acceleration" is fun with a like minded petrolhead is fun, stop for a chat about overhead cams and injectors but usually it is someone wanting to beat you at all costs to make a point and to try and make you look inferior.

Driving is all about the sensations, the feedback, the sounds, the smells, the tactile side and should be you, a car and the road, nobody else involved, if you are enjoying it, go with it, take it on face value and dont worry about the next car, more power or whatever as those moments are fleeting and some penis with a caravan, horse box or Honda Jazz will ineviatably make a big deal about pulling out in front of you or angry man in his mega diesel will attach himself to your rear bumper when he sees an opportunity to "beat you", I find having someone else involved when driving spiritedly just spoils it most of the time.

Now read the last part of my sentence you quoted.

I don't care if someone beats me away from the lights as long as they keep that speed going and don't slow down for the bends.

Unfortunately I'd estimate I've only met 10 such drivers in 20+ years of driving.

Yes, agreed, probably shoudlnt have quoted you there, was more of a general point than aimed at you, and I meandered a bit off the point.

[Twincam16]

Interesting thread, especially as the first PH response to any new car launch always seems to be 'it's not powerful enough'. Then you get absurd statements calling cars like the Lotus Evora and the Toyota GT-86 (which, let's face it, are faster than 70% of anything else on the road) as 'gutless' and 'slow' as if the potential buyers only get cars with the intention of competing at Le Mans, and always have one eye on the opposing team's dyno reading.

To me it's all about feel. A car that can carry a huge amount of speed through corners often feels faster and more fun than something that delivers sledgehammer pace in a straight line, but needs braking very hard before each corner. I'm never quite convinced by this island's prediliction for lightning-fast but ultimately numb German barges with suspension designed for millpond-smooth roads, especially as our roads are quite the opposite and favour long-travel suspension and high-compression tyre sidewalls. The average French hot hatch will probably be quicker over a British B-road than, say, an Audi S3, even if the S3 has more power and is faster in a straight line.

That said, it is important to be able to 'accelerate out of trouble'. There's nothing more demoralising and potentially dangerous than finding yourself in a gutless supermini on a motorway, trying to get past huge articulated lorries, desperately rowing the thing along while being buffetted by sidewinds. However, so long as whatever it is has the power-to-weight ratio to shift its own weight acceptably in these kinds of situations, and sustain a safe cruising speed, then the driving pleasure is all about the handling.