Wheel Spacers - Opinions

Wheel Spacers - Opinions

Author
Discussion

Captain Muppet

8,540 posts

267 months

Tuesday 11th September 2012
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JB! said:
you need to see porsche adapters that have been on a Mk2 golf through a few winters with no copper slip!

you need a hammer and chisel to get them off!!!
And yet my hub adapters just undo and fall off. Makes me wonder if the spec of the annodising on the adapter might be critical.

JB!

5,254 posts

182 months

Tuesday 11th September 2012
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Captain Muppet said:
And yet my hub adapters just undo and fall off. Makes me wonder if the spec of the annodising on the adapter might be critical.
Yeah my zinc coated steel adapters were nice, but heavy. H&R ones are the best from experience but you pay for quality.

JB!

5,254 posts

182 months

Tuesday 11th September 2012
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Moley RUFC said:
These
VW AUDI SEAT SKODA 5x100/112 15mm HUBCENTRIC SPACERS

http://bit.ly/Qglwdw
look ok, make sure you put a thin coat of copper slip on before using them (then clean any excess off to stop it getting on your discs). also if your taking the wheels on and off alot, its worth getting a stud, so you wind that in to stop the spacer spinning, helping you to put the other bolts in.

HTH

300bhp/ton

41,030 posts

192 months

Tuesday 11th September 2012
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Ozzie Osmond said:
Don't forget to tell your insurer about those expertly engineered "modifications". wink
Some people are truly comical....... :sigh:

Ozzie Osmond

21,189 posts

248 months

Tuesday 11th September 2012
quotequote all
300bhp/ton said:
Some people are truly comical....... :sigh:
and some people are truly stupid....... :sigh:

maniac0796

1,292 posts

168 months

Tuesday 11th September 2012
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doogz said:
Someone on a local car forum I used to use had similar sized spacers on a Saxo before. I crunched the numbers one time, and the moment applied to the hub, required to strip threads of cause a bolt to fail in tension was worrying low. As in, a big pothole or speedbump a bit too fast, and your wheel is coming off.
In my experience, things that work in maths don't work in real life....

As for the OP, you're looking for a spacer for one of the biggest modifying scenes in the world. It won't be hard. As has been said, H&R, Eibach, FK, etc etc will make something in your spec and price range.

Captain Muppet

8,540 posts

267 months

Tuesday 11th September 2012
quotequote all
doogz said:
Someone on a local car forum I used to use had similar sized spacers on a Saxo before. I crunched the numbers one time, and the moment applied to the hub, required to strip threads of cause a bolt to fail in tension was worrying low. As in, a big pothole or speedbump a bit too fast, and your wheel is coming off.
Do those same numbers with the load case being the moment applied to the hub when cornering at 1g (easily done with sticky tyres).

Did your calculations apply the moment directly to the bolt or did they overcome the clamp load first? Have a look here http://www.boltscience.com/pages/decomp1.htm

300bhp/ton

41,030 posts

192 months

Tuesday 11th September 2012
quotequote all
Ozzie Osmond said:
and some people are truly stupid....... :sigh:
Yes they are wink

KingNothing

3,174 posts

155 months

Tuesday 11th September 2012
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I was ready to get some and then I got new wheels so didn't need them, as the new wheels filled out the aches how I wanted.

The Black Flash

13,735 posts

200 months

Tuesday 11th September 2012
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doogz said:
Captain Muppet said:
Do those same numbers with the load case being the moment applied to the hub when cornering at 1g (easily done with sticky tyres).

Did your calculations apply the moment directly to the bolt or did they overcome the clamp load first? Have a look here http://www.boltscience.com/pages/decomp1.htm
If you're considering the bolt in pure tension, a bolt at 6 o'clock with a moment applied equal to the vertical force at the wheel multiplied by the length of the spacer, and consider the bolt pattern tipping around the 12 o'clock 'edge' of the spacer/hub, the clamping force isn't doing you any favours, as you need to consider the tensile stress already present in the bolt/threads from it being torqued up to anywhere between 50-80% yield.
Interesting. I've got 25mm spacers on the rear of my kit, to bring the wheels I'm using up to the same offset as the standard ones. (Common practice and I'm not aware of any failures, FWIW). Won't the moment acting on the bolts be the same in both cases (ie my wheels with the spacers, vs wheels with no spacers but the same ultimate offset). I'm not sure but it feels as if the forces you're talking about above should be the same, it's just that I'll have longer bolts?

Moley RUFC

Original Poster:

3,639 posts

191 months

Tuesday 11th September 2012
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All done. Greased up and torqued. Neither wheel overtook me Herby style either when I stopped so I must have remembered to bolt them on right and worked my maths out right...

Before

After- Wheel is still inside of the arch although this angle makes it look different.

Done


Ready to go to PH Sunday Service at Silverstone!

Captain Muppet

8,540 posts

267 months

Tuesday 11th September 2012
quotequote all
doogz said:
Captain Muppet said:
Do those same numbers with the load case being the moment applied to the hub when cornering at 1g (easily done with sticky tyres).

Did your calculations apply the moment directly to the bolt or did they overcome the clamp load first? Have a look here http://www.boltscience.com/pages/decomp1.htm
If you're considering the bolt in pure tension, a bolt at 6 o'clock with a moment applied equal to the vertical force at the wheel multiplied by the length of the spacer, and consider the bolt pattern tipping around the 12 o'clock 'edge' of the spacer/hub, the clamping force isn't doing you any favours, as you need to consider the tensile stress already present in the bolt/threads from it being torqued up to anywhere between 50-80% yield.
You won't be increasing the tension in the bolt significantly until you've overcome the clamp load, which isn't just the result of one bolt, but all of them. None of the bolts will be directly loaded until there is a gap between the wheel and hub (or spacer and hub).

Your load case is worse than reality, which is why the wheels don't fall off production Porches with OEM wheel spacers.

Captain Muppet

8,540 posts

267 months

Tuesday 11th September 2012
quotequote all
doogz said:
Captain Muppet said:
You won't be increasing the tension in the bolt significantly until you've overcome the clamp load, which isn't just the result of one bolt, but all of them. None of the bolts will be directly loaded until there is a gap between the wheel and hub (or spacer and hub).

Your load case is worse than reality, which is why the wheels don't fall off production Porches with OEM wheel spacers.
But one bolt will see a higher tensile force than the others. Or two of them, depending on the position of the bolt pattern relative to the direction of load application.

If you grab the head of a bolt that's torqued up to 70% yield preload, clamping 2 surfaces together, and pull on it, you will be increasing the tensile stress in that bolt.

And Porsche don't run 4*108mm hubs with 6 inch spacers on!

Although, I'll admit, the other thing I am taking into account, is that the clamping force is ignored under a "shock event"

Now, that maybe doesn't translate terribly well, when we consider upwards of 70g as a shock event, but as a general rule, it holds true. I personally haven't verified this from experimental data, but it has been done, and that's what we work with. I believe something similar is also stated in Lloyds Rules. They're shipbuilding rules, but engineering is engineering, if that is shown to be the case, it's just as valid everywhere. The issue/question really is, how quick/large does a load need to be before it's considered a shock load.

Edited by doogz on Tuesday 11th September 13:40
But you aren't applying the load to the head of the bolt, you're applying it to the wheel. How well the wheel spreads that load to the bolts is down to the stiffness of the casting/forging. Your load case is pessimistic. Great for designing stuff which won't fail, less great for predicting failures or calculating realistic safety factors.

Captain Muppet

8,540 posts

267 months

Tuesday 11th September 2012
quotequote all
doogz said:
It was really a quick hand calc to make a point at the time, that you're taking rather seriously.
I'm not taking it seriously, I'm taking it pedanticaly, like an engineer would.

If I was taking it seriously I wouldn't be typing this one-handed while eating a twix.

CommanderJameson

22,096 posts

228 months

Tuesday 11th September 2012
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Captain Muppet said:
typing this one-handed while eating a twix.
Pervert.

Captain Muppet

8,540 posts

267 months

Tuesday 11th September 2012
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doogz said:
Feel free to show your working then, for peer review smile
Aw man, that's what I'm on PH to avoid doing biggrin

Wild Rumpus

375 posts

176 months

Tuesday 11th September 2012
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I used to run expensive, hub centric, spacers on my Citroen ZX rally car. On rough events I always ended up shearing the studs on the front hubs, even using the tougher PTS studs. This never happened when I ran without spacers....

Prof Prolapse

16,160 posts

192 months

Tuesday 11th September 2012
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Captain Muppet said:
Yeah, lubricating the friction faces of a clamped joint is always a good idea. :hasgivenupsmilie:
biglaugh

Manufacturer's spec is for pussies.

Ranger 6

7,076 posts

251 months

Tuesday 11th September 2012
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Ozzie Osmond

21,189 posts

248 months

Tuesday 11th September 2012
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300bhp/ton said:
OzOs said:
and some people are truly stupid....... :sigh:
Yes they are wink
Glad you realise at last. This subject was nicely covered in the "300bhp/ton" thread a few weeks back.