RE: US coast-to-coast drive for Tesla Model S

[Bill Carr]

Bash Brannigan said:

So if Musk is ploughing his billions into this and charging stations, does that mean he's going to licence out the fast charge car technology and thus he'll have almost a monopoly on electric car running system market? Tesla sounds very impressive all ways on, and this is a great achievement.

I had similar thoughts. Own and license the charging infrastructure and the platform technology and you probably don't even need to produce any cars.

He's no mug is he?

[Devil2575]

Mr E said:

Devil2575 said:

I'm not one of these macho "I drove 500 miles without stopping" types

"and I would drive 500 more"


It's in your head now isn't it.

You're welcome.

bd!

[Stu R]

Very impressive indeed.

There's not many cars I'd take over a P85 Model S at present. They're utterly wonderful.

[norty]

anyone buying a 2 tonne Model S is unlikely to be an eco-evangelist, but as has been stated it, and any EV, is a lot cleaner in traffic snarled cities as the power is generate elsewhere. Tesla's superchargers are intended to run on renewable energy btw. There should be plenty of wind energy around at the moment!

I am an EV convert, mainly for the way the electric motor does its thing. A single uninterrupted smooth surge of acceleration from standstill is just plain addictive. Just try it.

[Devil2575]

r11co said:

Devil2575 said:

I've often wondered why people continue to use the same old arguments that have been discussed at length in the past.

I suspect the reason is that they actually just don't like the thought of EVs but can't think of any sensible objections anymore so just keeping banging the same old drum.

Just because arguments are well worn doesn't make them invalid.

As I said, I am all for energy recovery and efficiency, but EVs are made out to be some panacea when the reality is that their true environmental cost is just being hidden away somewhere else. It really is all about 'being seen' to be environmentally friendly (and for Musk this is just some sort of high-tech penance. The 'eye of the needle' story, modernised).

Hypocrisy springs to mind!

Edited by r11co on Wednesday 5th February 14:33

They have all been addressed.

No one who matters claims they are a panacea and yes they still do require energy much of which is currently dervived from burning fossil fuels, however...

Power stations can be located in areas away from centres of population vastly reducing the effects of local polution caused by IC engines.

Solutions to capture pollution and mitigate the effects of burning fossil fuels are easier to fit to power stations than they are to individual cars, especially as most cars on the road are not new. Such as carbon capture etc

Power stations come in a variety of forms, not all of which require the burning of fossil fuels. France for example is something like 80% Nuclear IIRC. It is far easier to convert your power generation from fossil fuels to other forms than it is to produce cars that use wind, sloar, nuclear etc.

Perhaps if you stopped listening to environmental idiots and started listening to engineers and scientists you wouldn't think that people thought this was a panacea. But then if you have a fundamental objection to EV it's easier to argue against Greenpeace isn't it

[98elise]

Fartgalen said:

Sounds like a reasonable achievement. But still. 170 miles and then you have to stop for half an hour ?

No that will be 260 miles, then a stop for half hour, then 170 miles.

If you need to regularly drive 430 miles without stopping, then possibly an EV is not for you. In other news....2 seater sports cars are not for big families, and rwd cars are st off road

[Devil2575]

norty said:

I am an EV convert, mainly for the way the electric motor does its thing.

I like the simplicity of the engineering. Much less moving parts compared to an IC engine. So potentially more reliable and easier to fix. You can envisage EV cars being modular with components simply pluging into each other without the need for all the seals and fluids etc.

They lack the drama of an IC engine, in much the same way that a download on an Ipod probably feels cold and sterile compared to vinyl on a record deck but once you're used to it 99.9% of people wouldn't go back.

EVs are perfect now for the majority of people who don't have an emotional connection to the IC engine. I imagine the arguments about switching from steam to diesel locomotives were similar.

[Turbodiesel1690]

98elise said:

No that will be 260 miles, then a stop for half hour, then 170 miles.

If you need to regularly drive 430 miles without stopping, then possibly an EV is not for you. In other news....2 seater sports cars are not for big families, and rwd cars are st off road

Didn't think there were EVs out there with 260 mile range! Interesting - if they can push that up to the 300 mark an awful lot more people would take an interest in electric motoring I'd wager...

[Devil2575]

98elise said:

Fartgalen said:

Sounds like a reasonable achievement. But still. 170 miles and then you have to stop for half an hour ?

No that will be 260 miles, then a stop for half hour, then 170 miles.

A 4 seater EV with a decent boot that could do 260 miles then stop for 30 minutes before doing a further 170 miles would pretty much fulfill all my requirements for a family car.

My wife could run that and I could have an Alpina B10 V8s in the garage for the 3000 miles my car does annually

[Goofnik]

Fartgalen said:

Sounds like a reasonable achievement. But still. 170 miles and then you have to stop for half an hour ?

If time is a factor, you'll soon be able to pay to get the battery swapped and be rolling again on a full charge in a few minutes.

A Model S isn't cheap. The people buying them can afford to shell out a few bucks to get a full pack swapped in if they have the need for it at that moment.

[howertings]

howertings said:

How does this compare with the energy usage of an ordinary ICE car for the same journey, I thought to myself.
Well, my rough and ready calc came out as follows:

Energy usage per Tesla = 1200/2 kWh per car = 600 kWh per car
With 1kWh = 3.6MJ then
Energy usage per Tesla = 600x3.6MJ = 2160MJ
With, say, a 50% efficiency in the electricity generation and distribution system then
"Gross" energy required per Tesla = 2060/0.5MJ = 4120MJ

For an economical ordinary ICE car, say fuel consumption of 5.0l/100km,
then for a journey of 3464 miles = 5540km
Fuel consumption = 5540x0.05 litres = 277 litres
With an energy density of 35MJ/l then
Energy usage = 277x35MJ = 9700MJ
Allowing say 2.0kWh per litre to refine and distribute gasoline then
Energy required to supply gasoline = 277x2.0x3.6MJ = 2000MJ
So "Gross" energy required per ICE car = 9700 + 2000 MJ = 11700MJ

So the electric car in use would appear to require less than 40% of the energy of an ordinary ICE car. Hmmmmm.....

Another thought (I'm obviously fairly bored at work today):
If two Telsa cars drive 3464 miles and consume 1200kWh, then the average rate of electricity consumption per car works out at 0.173kWh/mile, which sounds very impressive. With an 85kWh battery then the theoretical range per charge would be 491 miles - I'll take one of those cars please, sir!

However the Tesla website says that an 85kWh car will achieve a 306 mile range, which equates to 0.278 kWh/mile, which is sounds more realistic, but does not tally with the coast-to-coast cruise.

Hmmmm....

Anyone know the answer to this one?

[ant leigh]

British Beef said:

I had a drive of one last week (working in Norway they are very common as cost about the same as an entry level BMW 520 over here around 60k Noks - £60k)

In Norway they make perfect sense - Low cost (no taxes), no parking charge, no road tolls, you can use bus lanes and free charging points in public carparks...... Already becoming a problem in Oslo, where the bus lanes are frequently choked with.....electric cars!!!

Also a large proportion of electricity in Norway is hydro-electric. Environmentally friendly, sustainable and low cost.
EVs are an ideal solution there once charging points are established. Had a drive in a Tesla roadster in Oslo, free city parking, free power, bus lane use, and 0-60 3.6 secs

Still prefer petrol though

[r11co]

Devil2575 said:

r11co said:

Just because arguments are well worn doesn't make them invalid.

They have all been addressed.
<snip>
Power stations come in a variety of forms, not all of which require the burning of fossil fuels. France for example is something like 80% Nuclear IIRC.

Got there before you.

I can see the point clearly - EVs are a solution for when the power generation is not going to be practicably portable any more. When the petrol runs out they are the best way to make nuclear energy run cars without the need for reactors in every vehicle.

Unfortunately this does not fit with the ecomentalist sandalistas' ideals. The stink of hypocrisy is still large around these things.

Edited by r11co on Wednesday 5th February 19:22

[98elise]

Turbodiesel1690 said:

98elise said:

No that will be 260 miles, then a stop for half hour, then 170 miles.

If you need to regularly drive 430 miles without stopping, then possibly an EV is not for you. In other news....2 seater sports cars are not for big families, and rwd cars are st off road

Didn't think there were EVs out there with 260 mile range! Interesting - if they can push that up to the 300 mark an awful lot more people would take an interest in electric motoring I'd wager...

Tesla say you can get 300 from the Model S, its real world reviews that are saying 260 so it won't be long before 300 in real world driving is available. The average driver will do 30 miles per day, so 260 is plenty for most people.

[98elise]

howertings said:

howertings said:

How does this compare with the energy usage of an ordinary ICE car for the same journey, I thought to myself.
Well, my rough and ready calc came out as follows:

Energy usage per Tesla = 1200/2 kWh per car = 600 kWh per car
With 1kWh = 3.6MJ then
Energy usage per Tesla = 600x3.6MJ = 2160MJ
With, say, a 50% efficiency in the electricity generation and distribution system then
"Gross" energy required per Tesla = 2060/0.5MJ = 4120MJ

For an economical ordinary ICE car, say fuel consumption of 5.0l/100km,
then for a journey of 3464 miles = 5540km
Fuel consumption = 5540x0.05 litres = 277 litres
With an energy density of 35MJ/l then
Energy usage = 277x35MJ = 9700MJ
Allowing say 2.0kWh per litre to refine and distribute gasoline then
Energy required to supply gasoline = 277x2.0x3.6MJ = 2000MJ
So "Gross" energy required per ICE car = 9700 + 2000 MJ = 11700MJ

So the electric car in use would appear to require less than 40% of the energy of an ordinary ICE car. Hmmmmm.....

Another thought (I'm obviously fairly bored at work today):
If two Telsa cars drive 3464 miles and consume 1200kWh, then the average rate of electricity consumption per car works out at 0.173kWh/mile, which sounds very impressive. With an 85kWh battery then the theoretical range per charge would be 491 miles - I'll take one of those cars please, sir!

However the Tesla website says that an 85kWh car will achieve a 306 mile range, which equates to 0.278 kWh/mile, which is sounds more realistic, but does not tally with the coast-to-coast cruise.

Hmmmm....

Anyone know the answer to this one?

I would assume its 1200kWh per car. A rule of thumb for EV's is about 0.3kWh per mile.

[Fartgalen]

British Beef said:

I had a drive of one last week (working in Norway they are very common as cost about the same as an entry level BMW 520 over here around 60k Noks - £60k)
The Good - Nicely built, good looking 5 + 2 seating (+2 in the boot I sat in but could not close boot for small kids only), plents of boot space in rear and front boot. Driving even 5 up it is fast BUT totally emotionless, no engine noise no rising revs and no gear change really nulify the experience & enjoyment of going fast (and it is fast, 0-100mph faster than a new M5).

The Bad - range is in "optimistic conditions" I used 25 miles of range doing 2 miles of accelerating & braking, although no different to other manufacturers claims of MPG. Only difference is time to charge up, supercharger is 30 min, but you need a direct line to the nearest transformer or 24 hours at regular mains voltage for a full charge.

In Norway they make perfect sense - Low cost (no taxes), no parking charge, no road tolls, you can use bus lanes and free charging points in public carparks...... Already becoming a problem in Oslo, where the bus lanes are frequently choked with.....electric cars!!!

Battery life must be a problem in winter.

[Carparticus]

Ex Boy Racer said:

I ordered one a few weeks ago as it made a lot of sense for my London - Bristol travels. Unfortunately, I had to cancel the order as the range simply wasn't sufficient and non-supercharger charging is very slow.
I'm still waiting for my £2k deposit back. They're a lot more efficient taking it than returning it.
Unfortunate because everything else about the customer interaction was top-notch

Whilst I don't know your exact to-from locations, Bristol-London-Bristol is about 220-230 miles. That should easily be doable in an 85kwh Model S, with up to 25-50 miles to spare. I know its addictive to put your foot down at every opportunity in a Model S, but with a bit of restraint it will do the best part of 300 miles, and certainly 250 on a daily grind commute.

Are you aware that the Model S will shortly have a Chademo 50kw adapter .. and that there are free 50kw Chademo charge points at all the existing M4 motor way services ?

You'd only need 15/20 mins at one to put another 40-50 miles in if needed. Which surely isn't that much different to how long you must be filling with petrol every other day ??

They're already located at the Heston services, Chieveley, Membury, Reading, Leigh Delamere, as well as J11 Green Park and even various Ikea's along route. There's also about 100 or so 7kw charge points in / around the M4 corridor, and worst case there's probably 100 million 13 amp sockets for a very slow top up !!

Also, Tesla's own 135kw supercharger network along main motorways including the M4 will be in place by end of this year, and the first batch of cars in the UK wont start arriving until June onwards.

You should be able to recharge 230 miles worth domestically overnight using a bog standard 32amp domestic socket. Easy to fit, I did mine 3 yrs ago for about £50. There are higher power options etc. Can you arrange to fit one at the day-time parking location?

I've done 30,000 miles in a Tesla over past 3 yrs, and only on 3 occasions on 350 mile journeys have I actually pulled in to a high powered charge point, and had lunch etc I.E. .. despite what some anti-ev ludites will have you believe, 99.7 % of my journeys have been from domestic or solar sourced electricity and getting worried about range has been a complete non-issue. My longest regular daily trip is a 340 mile round trip, charging whilst in the meeting. I average about 40 miles a day the rest of the time. We even did about 1,000 miles around Devon/Cornwall back in July. Every hotel had free use of mains plugs .. and the £400 saving in petrol was put to better use

If you're commuting that distance daily for 11+ months of the year, that's about £12k in petrol alone in a car of equivalent performance, and rising. Whereas doing that with night time charging will be around £1k, so the petrol savings over 5 yrs of using the Model S will pay for the car entirely and thats before all the amazing benefits from 100% corp-tax write down.

As you probably know, the 85kwh pack has 8 years unlimited mileage warranty, and with 1,500 cycle life (to 80% of original capacity) that's a potential life span of nearly 400,000 miles . . . by which point a replacement pack will probably be half the current cost and/or twice the capacity given the way things are progressing at present.


< ok, advert over!>
< . . and no, I'm not a yoghurt weaving eco-nut, but I am an engineer and totally get the tech . . >

[Daniel Constant]

MX7 said:

SteveSteveson said:

Yes, but when a charging point is 200 miles away it makes it somewhat of a problem.

Nowt gets past you, clearly.

it's not an issue, the 2014 MY comes with a 30 mile-long extension cable

[loose cannon]

Edited due to the wrong thread

[loose cannon]

Oops

Edited by loose cannon on Wednesday 5th February 20:26